Emails Reveal How a Hospital Bowed to Political Pressure to Stop Treating Trans Teens
Emails Reveal How a Hospital Bowed to Political Pressure to Stop Treating Trans Teens
The Medical University of South Carolina initially said it wouldn’t be affected by a law banning use of state funds for treatment “furthering the gender transition” of children under 16. Months later, it cut off that care to all trans minors.
The Medical University of South Carolina initially said it wouldn’t be affected by a law banning use of state funds for treatment “furthering the gender transition” of children under 16. Months later, it cut off that care to all trans minors.
One Saturday morning in September 2022, Terrence Steyer, the dean of the College of Medicine at the Medical University of South Carolina, placed an urgent call to a student. Just a year prior, the medical student, Thomas Agostini, had won first place at a university-sponsored event for his graduate research on transgender pediatric patients. He also had been featured in a video on MUSC’s website highlighting resources that support the LGBTQ+ community.
Now, Agostini and his once-lauded study had set off a political firestorm. Conservative activists seized on one line in particular in the study’s summary — a parenthetical noting the youngest transgender patient to visit MUSC’s pediatric endocrinology clinic was 4 years old — and inaccurately claimed that children that young were prescribed hormones as part of a gender transition. Elon Musk amplified the false claim, tweeting, “Is it really true that four-year-olds are receiving hormone treatment?” That led federal and state lawmakers to frantically ask top MUSC leaders whether the public hospital was in fact helping young children medically transition. The hospital was not; its pediatric transgender patients did not receive hormone therapy before puberty, nor does it offer surgical options to minors.
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Medicalization of trans children, even those who are entering puberty or beyond, is a bad idea. There needs to be more research on the safety of puberty blockers and cross sex endogenous hormones for long term medical outcomes including cancer and heart disease risks. Once you are an adult, sure, do whatever you want to your body; but there is a different ethical consideration for minors.
You're not a doctor. There have been studies and there will be more.
What about the ethical consideration of teens suffering and killing themselves because of gender dysphoria? Does that not matter?
This isn't some "nice to have" this is important medical treatment to save lives, improve quality of life, improve outcomes.
Politicians have no fucking business denying healthcare to trans people.
The "they will die if they don't get gender affirming care" narrative is so harmful. Women who should qualify for gender affirming care (eg, hair removal from PCOS-induced hirsutism) aren't considered the same way. Do their feelings matter less? Are they really commiting suicide in large numbers because they do not have this treatment (perhaps it's unaffordable because health insurance doesn't cover it)?
Do you know a lot of girls with PCOS who are being bullied to the point of violence? Because that's exactly what happened to the trans girl I grew up with 30 years ago. Long before she ever said she was a girl or presented as a girl in public. When she just "looked like" an effeminate little boy, another child wrapped her scarf around her neck and around a piece of playground equipment and started pulling her off the ground by her throat.
You know why? Because she was wearing a glittery purple scarf. And you know what the school administration did about it? Not one fucking thing. Her mother and my mother had to go on a crusade to even get the incident acknowledged.
Yeah, I wonder why trans kids have such high suicide rates. It's not magic, you ignorant FART. You're part of the problem driving these kids to experience high suicide rates.
(Feminism Appropriating Radical Transphobe, for anyone who isn't familiar with this much more appropriate acronym for a TERF.)
bro that's fucking horrible and nobody should have to go through that but making people go through irreversible chemical, hormonal, and physical "treatments" instead of even trying to help their mental anguish is even worse. That's literally saying that cutting body parts off and gaslighting yourself into being okay with it is a reasonable fix toward feeling uncomfortable in your body, they should have the root issue addressed rather than having the entire medical field shit on them by making them think mutilating themselves is the right and empowering choice. they've fooled everyone including you, and it's all for money, because these "treatments" rake in ridiculous amounts of money and would bring in more money than just fixing their real issues so they can live a happy life phisically and chemically intact.
I knew this child from BIRTH. She's the same age as my younger sister and they were very good friends growing up. From the instant this kid could express preferences - I'm talking 18 months-2 years old - we knew something was up because here's this little boy who wants to wear dresses, play with dolls, and sneaks into mom's high heels and makeup at home.
We just assumed she was a gay boy because none of us had ever even heard of a transgender person 30-35 years ago. Believe me, everyone discouraged this. The constant battle finally met a stalemate agreement to just keep it at home. Even then, this kid was irrepressible, hence the glittery purple scarf at school.
When she told us in high school that she was really a girl, it was the most face-palmingly obvious thing, like of course that's what we've been seeing your entire life. That makes so much sense.
SHE initiated that conversation. No one EVER pushed her to do anything. She was a very active participant in her own medical decisions, which is medically appropriate for a teenager. (I'm a nurse. Teenagers should participate in their own medical decisions.)
She started puberty blockers, started living openly as a girl in RURAL OHIO 30 YEARS AGO and it was not a big fucking deal until you assholes suddenly decided it was a few years ago. She didn't receive any permanent medical treatment for transition until she was 18.
Believe me, son, she's PERFECTLY INTACT, happier than you, and you can fuck the fuck right off with that horse shit terminology.
what part of any of those things is female? you don't have to be female to enjoy "stereotypically" female things. that's pretty sexist and shortsighted of you, so I'm not surprised why, when surrounded with assumptions like that, they would feel the need to justify those preferences with being "female". maybe if you and the rest of their family were more open minded and accepted them for who they are, they wouldn't feel they had to transition in the first place.
Oh fuck off. You know damn well that 90% of society would raise an eyebrow at a 3 year old boy trudging around in high heels and getting into mom's lipstick.
NO ONE TOLD HER SHE WAS TRANS. SHE SAID THAT.
What part of this was self-determined is hard for you to understand? Transition was 100% initiated and driven BY HER. It's what she wanted because it's what she understood herself to be inside her own mind.
After I had my mastectomy I woke up briefly out of anesthesia, looked down, smiled and went back to sleep. I didn’t gaslight myself into being okay with it. Every time I get to go swimming or running without a shirt, every time I get a pizza from the door in an A-top and cargo shorts, I feel amazing in my body. I used to wear nothing but hoodies and jeans, covering every single inch of my body. I grow out a Duck Dynasty beard if I don’t shave for a couple months, it’s absolutely spectacular.
I don’t feel fooled, I’m not spending ridiculous amounts of money. It’s ~$25 a month for my shots, I paid $5500 for the mastectomy years ago. I see my primary care doc twice a year to get blood work done, the only issue with my T is that I make too many red blood cells and need to donate blood occasionally.
I’m a neckbeard that likes craft beer and D&D - that is my real self. The “real issues” that prevent me from a “happy life” are entirely related to being part of a group that fascists have decided to scapegoat.
Umm... You have fallen for some massive misinformation friend. The first stages of a transition are a trial period where one figures out what their individual needs are. Medical providers are actually pretty cagey about regret so if you are a trans youth this involves a therapist and a social worker who talks woith thw kids and their guardians.
As an adult this means basically doing dry runs of everything. Name change, social transition, binding, packing and talking to other trans people to see what worked for them. Inside the community itself there's a lot of people don't medically transition ever. For a solid chunk the social aspects alone give them the tools they need to get by okay...which is why if someone is pointing to someone and screaming about how their pronouns are going to destroy society it's really not great! Adding pressure by removing all the mental tools they need to get through their day in the body they have and telling them they are fake and just wanting attention doesn't achieve the aim of dissuading people from desiring medical transition. Quite the opposite.
Look a little bit further into non-binary identies and you will find a lot of trans people who have embraced halfway transition. Sometimes it's just a single sex characteristic you can't get over, sometimes your sense of identity isn't stable over the long term so a medical transition doesn't work for you. The point being is there's a lot of different trans people out there who have all approached being trans very differently. What works for one doesn't work for all so you share your experiences to find differences and similarity, experiment, really drill down into how you react to everything and I mean EVERYTHING... You lay out your values, fears, life goals, relationships, body image issues, spirituality - all of it and you itemize it. You figure out what you really want out of life, what you stand to lose and what you hope to gain by either staying as you are or pursing something else.
Trying to figure out your gender identity happens as a period of self experimentation over the course of years before you go to a doc about a physical transformation and pushing someone towards a medical transition as the only option is a subsect of "trans medicalism" which inside the community itself is generally policed as an asshole thing to levy at someone.
So when you come out the gate with "The first thing they do is chop off their bits!"... No. That is not how any of this works.
I understand your point of view, it's good that there's a lot of care taken to make sure the mental impact of transitioning is minimal, but the point is this is a huge amount of work to help someone try and cope with "being" something that doesn't align with what what they were born and biologically formed as. It's a noble sentiment, but we should be approaching the whole issue in a way that helps people realize that they don't have to change to be themselves.
we should be approaching the whole issue in a way that helps people realize that they don’t have to change to be themselves.
That is literally the first thing the majority of transgender people try. Usually for years if not decades, before they finally accept who they are and transition.
I guess my question is why doesn't the medical field try harder to actually properly fix the suffering they're experiencing instead of just helping them with the part of the process that keeps them buying hormones for the rest of their lives to fight their own body's hormone production and sometimes involves painfully mutilating themselves?
Because they have tried everything else, it didn't work. We've done all the things you are asking. We have tried every therapy you can imagine. It's not effective.
You are working on the assumption that there is some other treatment that works that we are just ignoring. What exactly do you think it is?
The truth is that transition works, it alleviates distress, and it's a very simple and safe treatment option.
I'm sorry if it came off that way,
I'm well aware that there's not much else available because the medical field clearly doesn't care enough to give you a more effective treatment option. I remember hearing about a drug that eliminated the feeling of gender dysphoria, but now I can't even find anything about it on the internet, and to be completely honest, it feels suspicious, because even the idea of innovating toward simply treating the core emotion of gender dysphoria is shunned, even though it's the most rational and straightforward treatment anyone could have.
The point is that a medication that could eliminate the root cause of dysphoria should and possibly did exist, but clearly something is strange with the world if even the idea of directly fixing someone's mental anguish is seen as hateful and bigoted. You should not stand for those keeping you away from genuine relief and contentness, instead of this half baked excuse for a treatment that is destructive to your body, emotions, and fights your hormones.
You've asked this same question repeatedly, with other people providing reasonable research links, anecdotal evidence, etc.
It's hard to avoid concluding that this is just some very civil trolling on your part. I appreciate that you're trying to be civil, but perhaps think, do some more reading and reanalyze your conclusions vs the boring solution of digging in one's heels and irritating people.
You kind of have it backwards. When you're trans there's a lot of work that you have to do to try and align with your physicality. The mental aspect is often very isolating because you don't see yourself as having very much in common with people of your phenotypic sex. Like you can be friends with them and feel close emotional connections but your brain doesn't register as them being like you the same way it does with cis people of your gender. Your brain also rewards you with a huge dopamine hit when someone actually recognizes who you are inside. It's a feeling like being invisible and nobody even knows you're there and then someone actually notices you.
Seriously a cashier just automatically coding me as my gender makes my whole gorram week. It's like someone shot sunlight directly into my brain and I get to carry that around for a few days.
The jealously of physicality is also not super subtle. I am riddiculously jealous of people with fairly unremarkable features. We're not talking movie star levels of beauty just- has a sex characteristic I want. I did not medically transition and chose to keep my birth sex characteristics because my partner really isn't attracted to the opposite set of characteristics. I value that romantic attachment enough that I would easily take a bullet for them. If I could make that sacrifice I figure essentially living in a body I wish every day I didn't have to live in tolerable. But so much has to be going right in my life for this to be okay.
But even then sometimes it's a lot. Like I know I will never not be hideous to myself. I might very well die having never really liked the way I look. I have a massive issue going to weddings and formal events because when I try to look good to myself it brings to light how even when I try it's so very far off from what I wish I could look like on a good day. People are actively mislead from how I would prefer to be treated, referred to and recognized because of my body and putting up with that takes additional energy and frustration daily. If I don't want people reminding me of the body I am in I have to tell everyone I meet to please use different pronouns for me and think of me differently so I can try my best to not be reminded of my body.
A lot of people when they come out as trans do so because they are already tired of trying so hard. A lot go through a stage where they try to be the best version of their birth sex they can be to try and make it work and find it has done nothing to make them happy. Part of why so many of us are complete hot messes when we socially transition is because by the time we give up trying to pretend to be cis we realize that we are dying from being so invisible and isolated from the people who we see as being the closest to us. That nobody actually knows us.
Even with my close friends who know my deal I sometimes see the wall that keeping this physicality maintains. Your brain does a lot to code everyone you meet as male or female and that translates unconsciously into how people reacts to you. Your brain prioritizes that information and we trans folk intimately know this. We can tell who is humouring us as best they can because they want to do the right thing by us and who actually has the switch flipped to their brain properly recognizing us as who we are... There is a cognitive load on the people who deal with us and we recognize that and a lot of that is based on our physicality. We see that cognitive work cis people go through lessen as we change. We see it in ourselves when we deal with other trans people who transition around us. (There is actually a kind of really funny thing with trans people who pass perfectly as a cis person where the transphobes have to fight the cognitive dissonance in the opposite direction. You see it in the micro hesitations they when they use a pronoun associated with somebody's birth sex and they get around it more by saying "they and them" more often, something we refer to as "the coward's they" because they are actively fighting their own brain's mechanisms that register the proper gender to maintain their meaness)
We recognize that gulf in you but we can't change you. The only thing we have the power to change is ourselves.
i'm genuinely sorry you have to deal with that. The world would be a better place if there was a greater focus on helping people feel comfortable in their own skin rather than seemingly embracing those cold feelings and letting trans people suffer through things like that.
I understand your viewpoint and that you understand how many people feel, and wish that core discomfort you feel could just be destroyed and replaced with the warmth that should fill you without having to make compromises to yourself or others.
You and everyone else deserve to be happy the way you are, and the medical field is doing you wrong by focusing on the wrong part of the issue, and I'm sorry so many people are so hateful toward those who suffer from that without understanding what they're going through. I'm sorry if what I'm saying is coming off as hateful, but I just want to see that core, inner coldness be replaced with happiness without people having to change themselves, and without that issue being ignored or glorified.
Yeah, you don't get it. Even when people try it's hard because they aren't the full problem. We react to our own bodies and we have an inner sense of gender. That's hard to communicate to a lot of cis people because they don't have an inner compass that registers gender. A lot of them figure their sex means basically nothing to them and it's like trying to explain color to the blind when you have an inner sense. There are cis people who do experience gender euphoria and deep connection to their gender but they are kind of rare and a lot of people don't really explore something when it works.
Moreover... The medical field actively resists people who want to medically transition. We have to prove beyond shadow of a doubt that it is what we want before anyone even starts considering it. YOU focus on the wrong part of the issue. You are not our therapists and endocrinologists. You aren't a researcher or a parent or partner of a trans person. Our medical transitions aren't your business. You have been lead to believe you know better than we do because when you only listen when other cis people talk about us in ways that register your confirmation bias from being cis that feels true to you because you are primed not to see us as reasonable. You have probably been informed we are delusional or crazy and thus unable to make our own informed choices. You want to try and save us from ourselves... But you do not know us you have just been lead to believe your opinion is reasonable because no joke being trans is really hard to empathize with properly.
When you say " I just want to see that core, inner coldness be replaced with happiness without people having to change themselves" you basically are just saying "I just wish you weren't trans. " If someone gave me the option of changing my gender to match my birth sex just so that I was happy in this body, I would not do it. Because gender lies so close to the core of who you are to just change it would be so fundamentally violating to my sense of self I would essentially stop being me anymore. For as long as I remember my gender has consciously or subconsciously colored every relationship and social interaction I have had in my life. It is in the bones of how I think about myself and my life. For all the frustration of not having the body I want this IS me. Changing my body is nothing by comparison.
saying that I wish you weren't trans by wanting to see your anguish disappear simply doesn't compute to me. From what I've been hearing from each of you, being trans is a response to what is being clearly acknowledged as discomfort with yourself.
The point is that you and everyone else said they are not content with their sex, which is an issue because you shouldn't have to feel like the opposite sex to feel they way you are.
If you're a biological male, you should not have to feel that you must label yourself as female in order to present yourself the way you feel and vice versa. In fact, having to feel the need for a gender separate from your sex shouldn't even be necessary, because you should be able to just present yourself without essentially stating you're a different sex.
Men can be as stereotypically feminine as they want, and women can be as stereotypically masculine as they want.
The point is that you shouldn't have to present yourself just the way you are and then justify it to society by labeling yourself as something other than your sex in order to conform with it.
Just be yourself. The issue is that you seem to think you have to justify it by labeling yourself differently.
PSA: Anyone this far gone is not worth arguing with. They're so deep into the ignorant conspiracy shitbox that they're not coming out.
Okay buddy, I'm glad you're content with the way the world is and clearly don't care to see improvement in people's mental health without having to go through a whole body mod process first
I'm sorry you're so willfully ignorant, and don't bother to educate yourself on topics you clearly have strong opinions on, even though it doesn't directly affect you. I hope things get better for you.
they’ve fooled everyone including you, and it’s all for money, because these “treatments” rake in ridiculous amounts of money
No they don't.
Most HRT is less than $50 a month. And trans people make up 1% of the population. Surgery is expensive, but even fewer trans people get those, they tend to be one-offs, and are only performed by a few specialists.
In comparison, therapy costs $100 a week.
You think medical and research organisations in countries all around the world are all risking their reputations to obscure the truth on a highly scrutinised treatment, in order to... Make less money than if they suggested therapy? To take less than fifty bucks a month from one percent of the population?
just because it's less expensive doesn't mean it's right either, just hacking off your body parts to feel "right" in your own body is even cheaper but that doesn't make it tight, because you shouldn't have to feel that way in the first place.
The fact that you describe “hacking body parts” off is already an indicator that you have no idea what you are talking about. Many, many trans people never even have surgery and surgeries are not really just chopping bits off. My mastectomy was an outpatient procedure where they sucked some fat out through a tube - essentially what they would do if I was cis and had gynecomastia. Plenty of cisgender men have low testosterone and take the same injections I do.
except low test men aren't doing it in an attempt to fix a core discomfort with their own identity, you deserve real help instead of bandage fixes.
No no, don't move the goalposts.
You made a claim of conspiracy, that people are being lead to transition because the treatments "rake in ridiculous amounts of money and would bring in more money than just fixing their real issues".
That claim is complete nonsense, and you pulled it out of your arse.
Acknowledge that.
okay, I acknowledge that maybe it's not prohibitively expensive for the end user. You don't think the development of new products to sell you also makes money for other companies in the chain? They have to develop the product, ways to harvest or synthesize the chemicals in it, deliver it, test it, and refine and iterate upon it.
Now that I've acknowledged that, are you going to acknowledge the moral implications of encouraging people to physically and chemically deform themselves to feel comfortable in their own bodies, whether they're okay with it or not?
I still stand by my point that it's like putting a band-aid and topical anesthetic on a 3rd degree burn and saying it's okay because the victim doesn't have pain anymore.
okay, I acknowledge that maybe it’s not prohibitively expensive for the end user.
No.
Acknowledge that you were parroting a ridiculous conspiracy theory.
There is not enough money in this to justify what you are suggesting.
You don’t think the development of new products to sell you also makes money for other companies in the chain?
What new products?!
It's testosterone and estrogens, that's it.
They have to develop the product, ways to harvest or synthesize the chemicals in it, deliver it, test it, and refine and iterate upon it.
Every drug and procedure trans people take was developed for cisgender people first.
There are basically zero new, trans-specific products.
I cannot say this strongly enough: what you are saying is a ridiculous conspiracy theory that has zero basis in reality.
so you're going to ignore the clear moral implications of forcing your body to be something it wasn't designed to be and instead hyperfixate on me mentioning the cost of the treatment. You can't call it a conspiracy theory that the medical industry isn't earning money from it. Any marketable product is a source of income and clearly hormones are in high demand, and as mentioned by another user, something that is purchased regularly throughout the life of the person. Also, you don't know anything about what areas of hormone production are or aren't profitable. I can assure you that somewhere down the supply chain, there is a company profiting from it, otherwise it wouldn't be available in the first place.
Nobody is forcing trans people to go through medical transition. But medical transition is what helps them relieve their mental anguish.
Being transgender is not a mental illness.
if destroying the physical and chemical makeup of one's body is necessary to make them feel "right" in it, then it's definitely not a non-issue either, the fact that someone feels that way in the first place goes against their genetic and chemical makeup, as well as their physical formations resulting from that makeup, which gives you the undeniable truth of what you "actually" are, rather than any thoughts or emotions one might have.
The emotions are entirely and completely immovable, the body is not; this treatment is the best of a shit situation. And even if we could transplant our brains into different bodies entirely, you'd just start calling us Frankensteins Monster
I strongly disagree. Our minds are the most malleable part of ourselves and should be the focus of any fixes the medical field innovates toward. The fact that you feel they are so immovable is proof that the medical field is failing to truly fix what plagues so many people with those feelings. If the proper treatment target had been identified from the beginning, you wouldn't be suffering in the first place.
Why do you think people actively choose to adapt their bodies to better fit the idea of themselves if they could just "change their minds"? And do you really think most haven't tried that first?
This to me feels very much like shaming a depressed person for taking antidepressants by telling them "the medical field has failed you by giving you pills, have you considered just being happy?"
I'm very much not shaming anyone, I'm trying to tell you that the "treatment" you're receiving is actively detrimental to your body and only exists because the medical field doesn't care enough about you or is too scared to give you a real fix. I understand that you might find any sort of criticism as an attack against you, and I apologize for it, but the truth is that you should be demanding more from the system that's using you without you realizing it.
Educate yourself https://genderdysphoria.fyi/
This is an attempt to normalize an issue people are suffering from. This is something that should be addressed and fixed, rather than left for the victim to deal with as if it's something acceptable to be forced to suffer in the era we live in, with the medical innovations we (should) have.
After I had my mastectomy I woke up briefly out of anesthesia, looked down, smiled and went back to sleep. I didn’t gaslight myself into being okay with it. Every time I get to go swimming or running without a shirt, every time I get a pizza from the door in an A-top and cargo shorts, I feel amazing in my body. I used to wear nothing but hoodies and jeans, covering every single inch of my body. I grow out a Duck Dynasty beard if I don’t shave for a couple months, it’s absolutely spectacular.
I don’t feel fooled, I’m not spending ridiculous amounts of money. It’s ~$25 a month for my shots, I paid $5500 for the mastectomy years ago. I see my primary care doc twice a year to get blood work done, the only issue with my T is that I make too many red blood cells and need to donate blood occasionally.
I’m a neckbeard that likes craft beer and D&D - that is my real self. The “real issues” that prevent me from a “happy life” are entirely related to being part of a group that fascists have decided to scapegoat.
Honestly that's pretty cool, and I'm glad you're happy with how you are now, I just wish we lived in a world where you didn't even have to go through that process to feel happy with yourself. People deserve to be able to feel happy the way they're born
My little brother was born with a hole in his heart which had to be corrected via surgery. No one demands that he be happy “the way he was born.”
Having a hole in your heart is not a deep seated mental anguish that is being socially normalized to the detriment of its victims, it is a physical issue inhibiting the proper functioning of a vital organ.
LOL, PCOS hirsutism has available pharmacological and non- pharmacological treatments. What is your point here?
Literal ignorance. There are already studies.
"GnRHa treatment did not seem to have a particularly adverse effect on reproductive function or bone growth."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4342775/
Puberty blockers only with social transition until age 18 are the standard of care given to the trans girl I grew up with 30 years ago. She didn't start exogenous hormones or surgery until she was a legal adult. None of this is new and the people you're listening to are literally just making things up.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2798007
Imagine everything about you is exactly the same, but you were born with the wrong body parts and as a result your had to spend your entire childhood pretending to be the opposite sex. It's not just some adult choice you make like going to college, it's you.
Your points are valid, but there are moral implications to both sides and it's disgusting how ignorant and close-minded idiot politicians and billionaires like Musk are about it while actual medical professionals are trying their best to navigate these complex situations. No science will ever change their minds, this is an extension of an ongoing campaign against all trans people, equating them with "groomers" and dudes trying to sneak into girl locker rooms or win sports games. More distractions from the real enemies of human decency and free societies.
If I were a child now, I would potentially be pushed to be trans or NB. I was a tomboy child with a solid interest in math and science. I had a fraught childhood with a medical surgery pushed on me (it could have waited). If I were presented with this idea, maybe I would have thought it fits me, especially because at least certain segments of the trans theory/argument seems to hinge on enforcing gender roles. Turns out, I'm just a woman in STEM.
If I were a child now, I would potentially be pushed to be trans or NB.
No that's not how that works. People aren't "pushed" into becoming trans, let alone into a medical transition. Trans people, especially trans youths, usually have to fight tooth and nail to have their identities taken seriously, and even harder to access healthcare.
especially because at least certain segments of the trans argument seems to hinge on enforcing gender roles.
This is just such tired nonsense. I have never met a community more supportive of people breaking gender norms than transgender and non-binary people.
Any promotion of the concept of gender and gender roles in schools is a bad idea in my opinion. The "genderbread person" that pops up is one instance, and it's discussion of gender includes gender roles: those are societal expectations of actions and characteristics.
Regarding gender roles, how do you respond to the current zeitgeist that asks if gender nonconforming women in literature and film are in fact trans? For example, Jo March in Little Women, and Mulan.
Any promotion of the concept of gender and gender roles in schools is a bad idea in my opinion.
Gender is a concept that exists. That kids will interact with throughout their lives. They deserve to be equipped with the information that helps them makes sense of that.
The “genderbread person” that pops up is one instance, and it’s discussion of gender includes gender roles: those are societal expectations of actions and characteristics.
It doesn't include gender roles in any version that I have seen.
The closest I've seen it get to gender roles is "gender expression", which it touches on to explicitly separate the concept of gendered expression, from gender identity and biological sex.
In other words, it does the exact opposite of the thing you fear that it does. Its entire purpose is to state that the things you described about yourself earlier, such as being a tomboy, are separate from gender identity and biological sex. That being a tomboy, or having interests that are stereotypically gendered, DO NOT make you that gender.
Regarding gender roles, how do you respond to the current zeitgeist that asks if gender nonconforming women in literature and film are in fact trans? For example, Jo March in Little Women, and Mulan.
Those can be interesting conversations even if the answer at the end is "they're still cisgender". Cisgender people have been writing gender into stories for a long time, and a lot of those stories do end up have themes very relatable for trans people. Relooking at media through a queer lens is not harmful.
Any promotion of the concept of gender and gender roles is a bad idea imo.
I wholeheartedly agree with what you said there! (even if it might not be what you meant)
We should treat children (and people at large) as neutrally as possible and wait for them to decide for themselves.
Like no expressed expectations, just some tools to understand who they are :)
Gender and gender roles have always been there, what's promoted is understanding of these concepts and self determination.
Genderbread person
What's the issue with that?
It's pretty neutral and just defines some terms (sex, gender identity, gender expression, romantic and sexual attraction) and not much more imho.
Regarding gender roles...
To me this feels as a non-issue. Trans folks don't have much in terms of representation. It's a natural pattern to try to identify with figures that look the most like you. A tomboy girl and a transmasc boy can at the same time identify themselves with e.g. Mulan without impeding on each other's interpretation, can't they?
It's a flat out lie that kids are pushed to be trans.
Most kids with gender dysphoria are lucky if their parents even support them at all. If anything the parents push kids away from it, as is the case with my kid's friend. In the worst cases parents even reject the kid altogether. They think they're doing the best thing for their kid but in fact it is exactly the opposite.
Trans kids often face bigotry and persecution and violence. And you think most parents, knowing this, would want that for their kid unless it was obviously what the kid wants??
Also keep in mind that just because you were a tomboy but not trans doesn't mean gender dysphoria doesn't exist.
Literal right-wing propaganda. "ThEy PuSh KiDs To Be TrAnS." You're a disgusting person.
Edit: This user is also a mod on a lemmy.world community! Wtf. Remove this fucker.
Edit: This user is also a mod on a lemmy.world community! Wtf. Remove this fucker.
It has like 11 monthly members and isn’t related to anything harmful, I don’t think it’s that much of an issue for admins to step in.
True, it would be no loss if they remove that mod
Stop lapping up right wing propaganda and start hanging out with people who actually are inclusive.
How would you be "pushed?" Who would do it?
What does a random surgery being "pushed" on you have to do with this conversation? Did it have anything to do with gender? What do you mean by this?
I'm asking all these questions in attempt to discuss this in good faith.
Permanently Deleted
Imagine being this stupid. Well, I suppose you don't have to.
Consider talking to a trans person and how they found their identity, or learning more about the ways gender identity is expressed or how gender influences society, or maybe just touch grass every once in a while instead of being a shitty person pretending to know something you clearly don't.
Why does every major medical organization and over a million doctors disagree with you?
Why does every major medical organization and over a million doctors disagree with you?
No, not really and I don't know what you base that on.
KI, the largest medical research center in Sweden and one of the largest in the world did a systemic study on the research basis of hormone treatment and concluded that treating gender dysphoria in children should only be considered experimental.
Ah yes, you have one 'health board' that was conspicuously taken over by TERF ideologues, which then started spouting junk science and ignoring the actual medical professionals. That totally trumps all the reputable medical orgs.
Complete tinfoil hat but you tell yourself whatever you need to get trough the day.
I point to research, you point to whatever the fuck that is. I expected more from this community tbh but shit...
Yes really. Your study suggests doing more studies, not that the effects were negative (because if they were, the conclusion would be no further studies.) At the end of the paper, it also pointed out newer studies not included in the 196 studies out of the 10,000 it pretends to have looked it that found the benefits did exist (nd even then, it really only looked at a couple dozen studies exhaustively).
The biases that your study shows are known, and fucking obvious to anyone that has talked to a trans person once in their lifetime: There aren't many long-term studies. This is due to obvious reasons, like discrimination, lack of support, and higher chance of being murdered, which most people don't want. The study also seemed to show that the bone density issue wasn't as pronounced as some nay-sayers seem to think, but they bury that in the data analysis and hide behind a more hardline in the synopsis. Additionally, you can't really do a randomized approach in this case because of fucking ethical concerns! Obviously!!! Randomly giving out hormones seems like a bad idea, both to people that want it and people that don't!
But, you don't really give a shit because you didn't read the study, and also you hate trans people, and that's what you actually care about.
Data on the effects on psychosocial health are lacking but there is some evidence that hormonal treatment may impact on bone maturation. The researchers conclude that hormonal treatment of gender dysphoria in this age group should be regarded as experimental treatment rather than standard procedure.
It's the second paragraph, read the damn thing.
How long did it take you to spell out this nonsense anyway? Probably longer than reading the article...
Also I don't hate trans people, that's just your small-minded assumption you ignorant fuck. I linked an article, that's it.
I did read the thing, and explained how they pointed out the bone density in the data, but obviously, you only read the second paragraph.
But, you're right, I didn't read the entire thing, so could you quote section 3.5 under Results for me, since I'm obviously unable to read? It's the one that might be labeled "Bone health outcomes" if I could read. Assuming that I can't read, and looking at the studies examined, it appears that the loss of bone density is pretty inconclusive, especially when hormones are taken earlier, but there were two studies that showed a minor decrease in bone density in transwomen when using puberty blockers, by a smaller margin than I had previously thought (you can read studies 21 and 22 so my illiteracy doesn't affect you.)
Or would you like to quote the portion about Psychosocial and mental health under section 3.3? What the study shows seems to be that 4 of the 6 studies had some improvement (14, 15, 16, 17), though it should be noted that study 19 was about testing fucking brain activations (no decline in that!) and not about mental health, and study 18 was about initial reduction in symptoms from their first appointment, so really, 4 out of 4 studies showed an improvement.
Dipshit.
lmao, dude, you're just rambling, wtf are you talking about You said:
Why does every major medical organization and over a million doctors disagree with you?
I pointed to a comprehensive study that shows that it is clearly not the case.
I pointed out the studies flaws because you didn't read it, can't interpret it yourself, and are not a doctor. Here is a list of actual major medical organizations that suggest gender-affirming care for trans youth:
American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry American Academy of Dermatology American Academy of Family Physicians American Academy of Nursing American Academy of Pediatrics American Academy of Physician Assistants American College Health Association American College of Nurse-Midwives American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists American College of Physicians American Counseling Association American Heart Association American Medical Association American Medical Student Association American Nurses Association American Osteopathic Association American Psychiatric Association American Psychological Association American Public Health Association American Society of Plastic Surgeons Endocrine Society Federation of Pediatric Organizations GLMA: Health Professionals Advancing LGBTQ Equality National Association of Nurse Practitioners in Women's Health National Association of Social Workers National Commission on Correctional Health Care Pediatric Endocrine Society Society for Adolescent Health and Medicine World Medical Association World Professional Association for Transgender HealthAnd if the WPATH didn't find actual health benefits that outweighed the actual downsides for puberty blockers and hormonal treatments, then they fucking wouldn't recommend them. This would be obvious to anyone that knew anything.
I didn't write the study. If you think it's flawed take that up with the researches who did write it.
Typical transphobic coward. You refuse to defend the study, but you won't admit it's a bad study.
Will you argue you're not transphobic? Because that would involve admitting that gender-affirming care and all it entails should be administered to any trans person that wants it. Otherwise, you do not care about the outcomes and health of trans people, at best, or want them to suffer, at worst.
You obviously have some personal issues related to this subject-matter. All I did was refute the bullshit claim you made in the original comment by linking this study.
But if you feel so threatened by scientific research that doesn't align with your world view then you need to get help somehow.
I'm not a transphobe.
But again all of this seems to me a way for you to manage what amounts to a threat to your world view.
Where does it say “Medicalization of trans children is a bad idea”? Because I only read that it’s not researched enough and might have reversible side effects.
The researchers conclude that hormonal treatment of gender dysphoria in this age group should be regarded as experimental treatment rather than standard procedure.
They conclude that it shouldn't be standard practice and only considered experimental. Isn't that enough?
It still doesn’t say it’s “a bad idea” like that commenter said, just that we don’t have sufficient proof to conclude that it’s 100% harmless.
There’s plenty of treatments we do that are not 100% safe, but we still employ them because the alternative is worse. The article is just encouraging more research, not for the practice to stop (It being considered “experimental” or “standard” barely matters as far as I know, since there’s a lot of assessments and tests to do before allowing someone to undergo hormonal therapy anyway).
No, it's rare for a treatment to go from standard practice to experimental, like they suggest. That means a serious misassesment has been made at some point.
The researches conclude that the hormone treatment makes irreversible changes to the bone structure but that the positive aspects as a treatment to gender dysphoria have not been sufficiently observed.
There lies the contradiction. How can there be more studies when everyone is fighting against it? You just said two totally opposing things.
Okay this is where we agree. I would not be against something if it were a matter of holding back basic human curiosity.
I did not. There are many ways the application of hormones can be studied, including to populations who take them for other medical reasons and animal models. The current application of these drugs to children amounts to an wide unregulated medical experiment; typically medical studies require strong oversight from ethics boards.
There are some truly sad stories of childhood detransitioners, like Chloe Cole.
So you're just making stuff up to get angry about. Big studies show de-transition rates are drastically below rates of regret for most common surgeries, including medically-necessary knee surgery, and cosmetic breast augmentation (which teenage cis girls get, and regret, all the time).
Many de-transtioners are just bullied out of medical care by people like yourself, only to re-transition later. The most common reasons cited for detransition were pressure from a parent (36%), transitioning was too hard (33%), too much harassment or discrimination (31%), and trouble getting a job (29%).
Supporting trans kids is mostly just about clothes/name/pronouns, and the only thing they're offered is puberty blockers, which were used safely in cisgender children with precocious puberty for decades before people like you started distorting the facts.
You're just another bigot spreading medical misinformation in a bad-faith attempt to block medical care for a stigmatized minority group, and you should feel bad about it. Shame.
How do you propose doing research other than through informed consent from willing volunteers? Let alone that this whole chain of events even stemmed from a research paper! How are they supposed to do the research you said they need to do, when they're actively punished for doing it?
If we don't know then isn't it a coin toss if the adverse effects of the trans healthcare are worse than the adverse effects of not receiving it? Unfortunately we don't always have 100% knowledge of how things are going to turn out when it comes to health issues and we have to make the best of what we do know. Which should be left to healthcare professionals and their patients to work out together what is best. Not fucking politicians.
I don't really buy the 'more medical research' argument. When is enough enough? Shouldn't there already be an abundance of cases where there are issues considering these procedures have been going on for decades?
I do, however, buy the significantly less popular argument that these kids might make the wrong decision and then come to regret it later. This goes both ways.
There is actually a fair amount of trans regret that exists where people who transitioned as adults due to a number of factors have to get over the jealousy and regret that comes from comparing their transitions to the ones that other people experienced with transition during puberty. It's a thing for sure amongst trans femmes particularly because not passing comes with so many downsides and dangers.
It's useful to remember that a LOT of care is made to ensure that the choice is made with everybody as informed as they possibly can be which is why puberty blockers are used to buy more time before making a decision what puberty is going to look like. The main team for a trans youth involves a specialist therapist, a social worker, a pediatrician and an endocrinologist but nothing happens if the parent or guardian doesn't sign off. There is a lot to know which is why if you ever meet someone who transitioned early they know their shit.
Those who do come to regret their transition (which is actually a lot lower than almost any surgery due to the care taken beforehand) are also usually not super bitter. Like they acknowledge that their situation sucks do not get me wrong... But most of them know a lot of other trans people because they reach out to find people in their situation. They also see how those people's lives have been radically changed for the better by the going through the process. The reason a lot of them don't speak out is because they would be imperiling something that they know is lifesaving for people they know and they have first hand knowledge about the care that was taken on their behalf.
(Or they were able to somehow get semilegal diy hormones while still a minor)
As for detransitioners, I don't see that as a good reason for not speaking out (not telling them what to do ofc it's their decision). But staying quiet opens up more space for people who do claim it ruined their lives. So they speak unopposed and get fox news TV spots and book deals and promote more gatekeeping to protect the children. While afaik in reality most people who regret/detransition do it because of transphobia from their relatives or their workplace or smth
Well that's just it. If you are miserable because the system doesn't help you then you go outside the system.
Detransitioners (not ones who temporarily suspend their horomones or goals for medical or life goal reasons like having a kid) are really rare comparatively so even if you know one you're kind of an outlier, finding a second to compare their experiences against is something you probably have to seek out.
One thing that you get really used to as a trans person is people ignoring what you say and twisting whatever was said to match your point. If you detransition because the social cost was too high chances are also good you don't want to put yourself in the crosshairs and risk Conservatives quoting everything you say out of context or just be dismissed as "just one crazy's opinion".
There's also an unfair situation inside the community where since people have had the very existence of detransitioners used to do them personal harm by conservatives a lot of people are primed to see detransitioners as a threat. Not all trans folks are saints and fear doesn't bring out the best in people I'm afraid.
Those who decide to do the whole tv spot book deal thing are those who basically don't care who they hurt for personal gain. That lack of empathy is in itself a narrowing factor. There isn't so much a market on the left to be elevated like that because you have way more trans voices making stuff with a range of opinions. People on the left don't need to be swayed by detransitioners when they already understand trans discrimination and trans joy.
It's easier to be elevated to the top when you are a basically a super rare prop for someone's re-election campaign. A lot of the liberal situation isn't throwing their support unanimously behind trans rights... A lot of them are kind of hoping you forget about trans people because they think that will lose them support so they fronting other issues leaving trans people do their own advocacy.
There’s also an unfair situation inside the community where since people have had the very existence of detransitioners used to do them personal harm by conservatives a lot of people are primed to see detransitioners as a threat. Not all trans folks are saints and fear doesn’t bring out the best in people I’m afraid.
well wouldn't more visibility for non-regretful detransitioners help with that as well? like a counterexample you can point to when conservatives say it's a scary irreversible decision that you shouldn't make unless you're 146% sure
I wouldn't imagine that a lot of detransitioners have the energy to advocate. Social transition generally has a hot mess stage where people aren't really very confident in their transition and you are just clinging to the bricks with splintering fingers trying to get through the hard part of telling everyone what you need. Going through that and then reversing course and doing it a second time probably holds enough social anxiety for several lifetimes on it's own.
The route of least resistance is to just quietly try and go forward with nobody knowing your history. I would not fault anyone for wanting that.
It's Also reaaaaaaaaallly rare. Like 2020 in the US there were something around 12,800 gender affirming surgeries done in the US. If the detransition rate is about 1% that is only about 128 people. Of detransitioners studies tend to put those who just found it wasn't for them (not counting those who found anti-trans sentiments and pressures unbearable and wanted to flee back into the closet where they felt safe) at around 0.04 percent... That's about... maybe ONE person for everyone who surgically transitioned in the US that year? I dunno how you really count 0.5 of a person so maybe it's a coin toss?
It's really scary being that alone as a voice. You are really vulnerable.
I guess you can't read
Medical use of puberty blockers has been approved by the FDA and used since 1993... There were trans participants of the original study who were 13 years old during the trial in 1988 which means the first people to receive this as teens are now 48 years old... Also that trial was based on a lot of information we already had on intersex paitents and people with horomone related endocrine disorders.
There is a lot more long term data than you think. This need for "MORE RESEARCH!" ignores what has already done and is just a tactic to move the goal posts so there never is enough reasonable burden of proof.
Puberty blockers aren't new drugs. They already have a long history of testing and documentation; we already know their relative safety.
There are plenty of studies. The "no studies" thing is a bad faith argument from deliberately misunderstanding the way medical studies work. The theoretical ideal of a double blind study has serious ethical problems when it involves giving a placebo to someone who would be seriously harmed by being denied care, so not all studies are done that way.
Bet you say the same shit about vaccines.
Just report that transphobe. They don't belong here on Lemmy
Nope, I am provax! Got my flu and COVID shots a few weeks ago.
Ideally you will have received a series of vaccines throughout your lifetime. Anti-science people aren't truly anti-vax: they're anti-THIS-vax, like their 18th vaccination is somehow the poison.
Yes, I have, and I continue to urge people to wear masks, get vaccinated, I get my dogs vaccinated; I urge people to vote, I believe systemic racism exists, etc. Despite the narrative that people try to push that all those opposed to medically transitioning children are right-wing conservatives, I am not. I am also a trained scientist with a PhD from a public Ivy university. I do not think that the current zeitgeist surrounding this issue has been resolved through rigorous science and the best attempts to do no harm: to everyone.
I do not think that the current zeitgeist surrounding this issue has been resolved through rigorous science and the best attempts to do no harm: to everyone.
The problem is that in order to prevent the incredibly rare occurrence of a cisgender person mistakenly undergoing transition, you are advocating for policies that would force a far greater number of transgender people to undergo that same horror.
There is harm being done to the entire class of women for the loss of the concept of sex as the source of female oppression. Sex matters and these distinctions are being removed in language.
sigh I don't know why I bother speaking with TERFs.
There is harm being done to the entire class of women for the loss of the concept of sex as the source of female oppression. Sex matters and these distinctions are being removed in language.
Firstly, that has absolutely nothing to do with what I wrote or the chain of comments thus far. It's just a completely non-sequitur accusation.
But secondly, this isn't happening.
An intersectional understanding of oppression and privilege does not erase the oppression cisgender women face.
And the distinctions in language are absolutely not being removed. The words "transgender" and "cisgender" exist precisely to make discussing these issues in a clear and respectful manner possible. That's exactly what those words are for.
I agree with you.
Thank you. Today I decided I didn't just want to silence my opinion and contribute to an echo chamber. (Tomorrow I will probably go back to upvoting cat memes.)