Quebec to raise university fees and mandate French for out-of-province students
Quebec to raise university fees and mandate French for out-of-province students
The changes, which impact out-of-province students, have been criticised by Quebec's English universities.
You're viewing a single thread.
Something that people should keep in mind is that the fees were lower for those "out-of-province" students in Québec than in their own province.
This fee raise basically brings it on par with what they would pay in their on province. One of the reasoning behind this law is that Québec shouldn't be subsidizing other provinces way too expensive university system.
If you are living in Québec, university fees are quite cheap, and this doesn't change.
The French vs English aspect is widely talked about, but not a whole lot is mentioned about the actual price hike.
The total fees for out of province students will still be lower than for out of province students in other provinces.
The fees for international students will still be lower than the fees for international students in other provinces.
In the only province where French is the only official language, French universities received less financing than English universities no matter the source, including from the provincial government. Donating to one's Alma Mater isn't part of the French Canadian culture for a ton of historical reasons, that leads to an university like McGill getting 200m$ from a single ex student and having over a billion sleeping in its coffers while the Université du Québec en Outaouais barely manages to offer basic services to its students.
Is it such a bad thing that the government asks that foreign students integrate themselves by learning the local language? That's an incentive for them to stay and it prevents the issue of having some of them stay without being able to speak the language, pretty much forcing them to live in one of three urban areas and their suburbs (Montreal, Gatineau, Sherbrooke).
Imagine calling your fellow countrymen foreigners.
That's just a taste of how badly Quebec's nationalists try to create a rift. But they'll be the first to turn around and tell you that Anglos are the problem.
Cambridge dictionary definition of foreign: belonging or connected to a country that is not your own.
They are foreign though, literally. They are from a different province, plus a very different culture. There isn't much that separates someone from Alberta from someone from Montana or Massachussetts in that case, other than a passport.
So?
My neighbour is of a different culture than me, yet I don’t think of them as a foreigner.
I could cross the state border and find someone of a different culture in a different state with different laws, they’re still not a foreigner.
I mean you can Google the word "foreign" and the first thing that shows up is:
of, from, in, or characteristic of a country or language other than one's own.
of or belonging to another district or area.
And Wiktionary gives:
Located outside a country or place, especially one's own.
Originating from, characteristic of, belonging to, or being a citizen of a country or place other than the one under discussion.
Most Québécois are primarily francophones, while the rest of Canada are anglophones, it checks that box. And obviously Québec is a different district/area than not Québec. And someome from outside of Québec is of course from a different place, both being a different province and a completely different sometimes almost unrecognizable culture.
Idk man seems pretty reasonable to call them "foreign" seeing as how they're from a different province. Plus "foreign" is a good catch-all word for anyone who isn't from the jurisdiction.
Also yes if you go into another state you are foreign to that state. Not foreign country-wise, but foreign state-wise.
Heck, 100 years ago someone from four villages over was considered a foreigner...
See there's this thing we call "a definition" and that word is appropriate to the situation and if you think "foreigner" is pejorative then you're the one who's got an issue...
Yeah totally, it’s not at all a well-known derogatory term used to other people’s.
Honestly if this is how French Canadians act, I totally get the reputation. Sounds like a bunch of downright exclusionary shit cunts.
"Oh no, French Canadians use words in their second language based on their definition, what a bunch of exclusionary shit cunts!"
You should really go sit down and reflect on the way you just acted.
French is a dead language, just admit it and move on with your lives already Quebec.
More and more people speak it on a global scale, you shouldn't celebrate the disappearance of non English cultures.
Is it federally legal for to discriminate based on language? Don't know, don't live there, really curious, though.
Or is this one if those things that have to be adjudicated in the courts?
The law states that English universities can take in whoever they want, 80% must finish their degree having reached conversational level in French otherwise English universities will lose part of their funding (when they're the universities that are the richest in the province).
That's not language discrimination, that's just bad journalism.
Thank you for clarifying. English is the official language of Canada, right? I know provences support French, but is it also an official language?
For instance, in the U.S. there is no national language. Most government forms are provided in MANY languages and/or can be requested in them.
I'm not sure in the US a university could require language profiency in a specific language. To be fair, though, I haven't researched it. Maybe somebody can clarify if there are any federally funded ones that do?
If Canadian universities require conversational French for 80% of grads but the only official language is English, then I wonder what the legal basis is for the requirement? If both English and Fench are official national languages, I understand how that would be the basis.
Thanks for the conversation, I'm learning a lot.
Canada has 2 official languages, French and English. Provinces can have their own official language and so in Québec it is french
That makes LOTS more sense. Thanks so much!
Could a province have a first people's, or other language as their official, if they wanted? Or is the option just the two national official languages?
Something that people should keep in mind is that the fees were lower for those "out-of-province" students in Québec than in their own province.This fee raise basically brings it on par with what they would pay in their on province. One of the reasoning behind this law is that Québec shouldn't be subsidizing other provinces way too expensive university system.
Do you have a source for this? I've never seen anywhere that students from out-of-province were paying less tuition than students in-province in Quebec.
Maybe you misunderstood when they said they want to "stop Quebec taxpayers from subsidizing anglophone students who come from elsewhere in the country to study in Montreal." (from another article)
But that's what every province does for out-of-province students, and, it doesn't mean out-of-province students pay less. Every student's tuition is subsidized (partially by the province funding universities), and now Québec wants to treat people from out-of-province differently, which doesn't happen anywhere else in Canada. In fact, Quebec probably has among the lowest number of out-of-province students so they actually don't subsidize them more than, say, Nova Scotia. (just a guess)
The French vs English aspect is widely talked about, but not a whole lot is mentioned about the actual price hike.
That's because that's the reason for this change... They've said it at every turn that they want to protect the French language and that's why they added the clause that students have to be taught French.
That's all a smoke show. The real reason is their objective of nationalism.
You've got an issue with a cultural minority protecting its culture?
Nice spin
That's exactly what it is though, they would never dare say the same thing about a first Nation community adopting similar rules.
Because in our treaties and agreements they are quite literally sovereign nations that have the right to self determination. Unlike the Quebecois, they actually were here first, and they really are a minority at risk of extinction. It's so strange how French Canadians can't understand nuance.
You think a group of about 7m surrounded by 360m people that speak another language aren't at risk of seeing their culture disappear?
The Quebecois are also recognized as a separate nation by the federal government, just so you know.
It's so strange how Anglo Canadians can't understand their position in this.
That's awesome, so now we're just pulling random numbers out of the hat. 360m today, 8 billion tomorrow. By that logic, though, Anglo Canadians should have disappeared into American culture huh? Since we already speak the same language. Gee, I wonder why that's never happened.
And just to be clear, the Quebecois are regarded as a nation, french is the official language, the feds are bilingual, and the Quebec govt conduct all operations in French, but somehow they're also at risk of extinction is it?
Random numbers? Oh yeah, sorry... 5 millions French Canadians, 33.5m non French Canadians, 331.9 Americans... So yeah, you're right, my numbers were wrong, 5m sharing 367.4m... Oops, it didn't go the way you expected did it?
You're pretty blind if you don't realise that Anglo Canadian culture is disappearing, Quebec produces more original content for its TV than the rest of Canada!
American culture is spreading so much that similar language protection laws are getting adopted in European countries now, same for protection against the spread of Russian in eastern Europe. You just don't care because it doesn't affect you, the proof being that I'm here and talking to you in English instead of forcing you to speak to me in french, which you should be able to do in our bilingual country.
There's 7 million french and native French Canadians ffs. Random ass numbers lol. Nope it went where I wanted and the point still stands but it just flew over your head, like pretty much everything else in this thread.
Anglo Canadian culture is doing just fine despite our politicians not clutching their pearls and blaming immigrants.
You can't even keep track of what your narrative is supposed to be. If Quebec produces more original TV than the rest of Canada, then it's culture isn't disappearing, is it? Write these things down if you have to, you're starting to contradict yourself.
You're speaking English because it's an English sub lmfao. This is exactly the type of Quebecois entitlement that I'm talking about. You don't see me going to french subs and making a point of not forcing them to speak English.
Crazy for you to be talking about entitlement when the first thing you would do when visiting a city in Québec would be to ask for service in English because YOU can't speak the language of the place you are going to and WE have to make efforts to accomodate your lazyness but nooo we are the ones who are entitled
Maybe nuance doesn't translate well into French?
No you see the only groups that get to use the government to hurt other groups is the groups I personally like.
Humans are "meant" to be multilingual. That is norm for us. I still remember the small shock I felt when we were visiting my wife's homeland for the first time and it turns out there is a language with under 6 million people, spoken only in one small region, that she knew plus the most common language of her country.
So yeah this is a group being punished for speaking their own language on land that they originally owned, plus anyone who wants to study there and doesn't speak French. This is freedom? This is a just society? This is education? Schools are supposed to teach not force monolithic thought and punish people for being born "wrong".
First Nations have no French requirements and are allowed to get service in English in Quebec if they want to, that's a protected right.
Also very very funny that you would go from saying "Humans are meant to be multilingual" to "I can't believe they have to learn a second language!"
It's incredible how easy it is to point out the the Anglo hypocrisy.
Wow ok you clearly need to read things slowly. Humans are meant to speak multiple languages, that doesn't mean governments have a right to say fuck you if you don't know a particular one.
Got it? Be educated and don't punish people for not having one random piece of crap in their head. I hope you understand, maybe if you don't you can have someone translate it for you in the obscure language called French.
Perfect, no language obligations for schools anymore, let's let French Canadian culture get assimilated by English culture.
Is that what you want? You're mad that first Nation culture has it rough and your reaction is "This other cultural minority should disappear too"?
Perfect, no language obligations for schools anymore, let’s let French Canadian culture get assimilated by English culture.
Whine like a little bitch to the government to save it. Please mommy and daddy government. My obscure language can't survive on merit, all other ones need to be eliminated so my pathetic excuse of a mother tongue can survive like a hothouse flower. Also let me fuck over everyone else that way my way of life will win.
All conservative thought boils down to: there are groups the government protects but doesn't bind and groups the government binds but doesn't protect. My group is the former and fuck them, I got mine.
s that what you want? You’re mad that first Nation culture has it rough and your reaction is “This other cultural minority should disappear too”?
What I want is people to not act like little shits.
You've got an issue with people calling out racists and nationalists?
Can you explain what racism you are talking about?
The most egregious example would be Bill 21. Absolutely horrendous legislation that does nothing but marginalize those who are already marginalized. Despite what the Quebecois would like you to believe, it's a piece of proxy legislation that aims to exclude religious and ethnic minorities from Quebec society, plain as day.
Just a quick look, that’s just the same as France’s law on religious iconography except only for government employees?
Trying to limit the danger of religion sounds like a good thing to me.
Firstly, this isn't France. We have a charter of rights and freedoms that Quebec used a BS notwithstanding clause to get around so that they could pass the bill. Secondly, there's practical and effective ways to curb the danger of religion without taking a) taking away people's livelihoods b) making them choose between their faith and their job and c) forcing them to move out of the province to find a workplace that doesn't go against Canadian ideals.
Did you read the bill?
Yes, I did.
Who's concerned then? A minority of government jobs, plenty of opportunities for people who want to display a religious sign and worst case there's the private sector if they truly don't agree.
Is it any different from asking the people who have the exact same jobs from not displaying their political allegiance? Both religion and freedom of expression are protected by the Canadian Charter, don't forget that.
So there's an imaginary line in the sand that you've drawn regarding how many jobs are allowed to be denied to minorities? Ever heard of the slippery slope argument?
I thank you for the kind reminder of the existence of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I wonder if the Quebec legislators have ever read it. Have you? Maybe your rights are only protected when you're off the clock eh?
Again, what about political signs? No one complains about that... Weird right?
Quebec made the decision 60 years ago to get religion out of its institutions, only the Catholic Church was concerned at the time but today is a different reality and the Révolution Tranquille is a big part of what makes Quebec what it is today. I don't know why someone that's religious to the point that they wouldn't accept to separate their private religious life from their job would want to represent a laïc government just like I don't understand why an atheist would want to go work for the government in a theocracy.
Oh the double standards. The religious minorities should be protected at all costs, but the québécois don't deserve that same protection. It's always the ""inclusivity/minority activists"" that are the most against Québec when Québec itself fits inside this very definition. For the common good, please just fuck off.
It's really funny how triggered you are. Believe it or not but French speakers aren't a minority in Quebec. Wild, I know!
Yes, when that's not what's happening I've got an issue with it
Could have fooled me. Arguing out of one side your mouth that people should be punished for speaking a different language while turning universities into indoctrination facilities for nationalism and the other side of your mouth arguing how tolerant you are.
Maybe you are a wave function that collapses when observed into one of two states? Bigoted in one and spinning bigotry in the other.
Great, then you shouldn't have an issue calling out the CAQ and the nationalists that support them 👍🏼
So it's wrong to be proud of your culture and to expect people that make the choice to live in it to actually want to become part of it?
Absolutely not. When a person receives their Canadian citizenship they agree to uphold the values of the Canadian constitution and they are also afforded the rights that it lays out. Remind me, is the right to freedom of religion included in those documents?
Is the right to force a person to wear specific clothing in there too or is it just ok if it's a religious group or a person's family that choose their clothings?
Are you asking me if the right to enforce a dress code is in the Canadian constitution? Is this a joke or have you lost the plot?
Nothing at all. Please wear a t-shirt that says White Pride on it and put a bumper sticker on your car to that effect also whatever dating app you use make sure it is shown. You can also get a tat that says it on your neck or arm. Please please do this. You know after you scream at a woman wearing a hijab an incoherent scream in that obscure language called French.
See, a judge and a teacher wouldn't be allowed to wear a pin that says "white pride" because in their professional life they represent a State that has specific values and their image must reflect that. One such value of that State is the separation of religion and State.
Awful uppity for people who open their parliament with a prayer and whose head of state is titled the Defender of the Faith while being the head of the church of England.
When are you getting your White Pride face tat? Can you send me a picture of you with in on a public bus?
Can you explain? What do you mean by nationalism?
Anglo Canadians see Quebec's interculturalism as nationalism in the third Reich sense...
The victim complex in action, exhibit A:
Quebec's nationalism involves alienating non-French speaking Canadians including its own residents (eg Montrealers), creating a narrative that Quebec's culture is at risk of being wiped out, reinforcing a victim complex, blaming its own minorities while complaining about being a minority, and by enacting discriminory laws that only aim to exclude those who don't fit their image of what a Quebecer should be.