‘Seismic shift’: driving unaffordable for many in US amid push toward SUVs
‘Seismic shift’: driving unaffordable for many in US amid push toward SUVs
Luxury vehicles, production cuts and soaring insurance prices have sent the cost of US car ownership out of control
You're viewing part of a thread.
I had to use a unit converter, but I've lived in places housing up to seven people that weren't that big. Comfortably.
This is a conversation I had here recently as well when I pointed out to a car thread that for the money Americans pay for pickup trucks you can also buy a hatchback and a proper van, cover most use cases and not drive a tank to take kids to school. They did NOT like that.
Hatchbacks and vans are enclosed and not fun to haul stinky stuff and aren't conducive to hosing out after.
The main problem in the US is companies not making Coupe utility sized vehicles like the Subaru Brat or the El Camino. Small and light vehicles with beds. I would love a small AWD electric or hybrid truck that size that has good mileage for commuting and just enough convenience for moving cumbersome and stinky things around. The Ford Maverick is a move in the right direction, but is almost a midsized truck instead of going full on compact.
AAAAAAH, it's happening again!
Let me speedrun through this: I've never seen a pickup truck and I am in a rural place where people move stinky stuff all the time. Vans can be purchased with sealed off cabins, and with all doors open can be hosed down easily. It's fine. Nobody here has pickups. I haven't seen a pickup or known anybody to have one and everybody is fine. This is a strictly American thing and the US isn't the moon, there really isn't a unique need to use a truck bed for school runs.
You're doing the thing the man said: drive a tank to buy groceries in case you have to haul manure once a year.
It's about impossible to make this point with some Americans. Don't cause yourself an aneurysm.
I want a truck the size of a Subaru Brat, which had a shorter total length than a Honda Fit.
Is that unreasonable?
No they're just being a cunt and don't realize every truck isn't the size of a 737
No you are not. But perhaps you might consider a small and light trailer you could pull behind a sedan of even a mini-van. The costs are far, far, lower and the insurance and licensing are nearly non-existent.
No, for reasons already explained upthread and in various posts.
unfortunately there is no such product available in the market currently.
Most close may be a triporteur (scooter with bed) or a cargo bike, with an extended battery it is enough for daily work (60-200km)
I know there isn't in the US because I recently tried to find one to purchase, and I am complaining about that lack of availability.
Congratulations you anecdotal experience means nothing. I see pick up trucks ALL the time in rural areas (in Germany and the US) and in the US they aren't all hulking behemoth dodge rams. Those fill the suburbs. There's nothing wrong with wanting a small compact truck for hauling stuff. Trucks like the 95 toyota hilux, 98 Ford ranger, and 92 Jeep Comanche are great for hauling stuff like used furniture or concrete powder and picking up your kids from school without looking like an Abrams tank.
This is a strictly American thing and the US isn't the moon
Except the 2 best selling cars GLOBALLY in 2020 was the Toyata corolla and the Toyota hilux a fucking truck. The hilux was 2020′s best-selling VEHICLE in 14 countries, including Argentina, Australia, Panama, South Africa and Fiji.
You don't speak for the rest of the world
Wait, in 2020? Why not look up 22 or 23? I mean, it's not like anything weird would have impacted the market in 2020, huh? And hey, it doesn't even look that bad for your case, the Hilux and the F150 both break the top 10 in the most recent source I could find, if narrowly. The best seller I see is a SUV, and man, trust me, I don't share your defensiveness here, you are super allowed to mock those.
Now, I don't speak for the whole world, but I sure speak for myself. Since I was checking, in my location small vans and pickups all together account for less than 10% of the national market as per the most recent data (they don't even bother separating those segments, apparently). Large commercial vans and small commercial trucks are actually as big of a segment.
So yeah, anecdotally and statistically, it's exceedingly rare to see a pickup truck here. Turns out you also don't speak for the rest of the world. Because, you know, nobody does. That tends to happen with hundreds of countries and billions of people.
Turns out you also don't speak for the rest of the world. Because, you know, nobody does. That tends to happen with hundreds of countries and billions of people.
I never claimed to, you did. Outside of your world statistically ppl do buy trucks. They're not rare. It's not just an American thing. I'm not speaking for the world. I'm stating an objective fact.
You're just trying to walk back your condescending attitude because you realized you were PAINFULLY wrong. It's easy to shit on America (usually rightfully so) but all it showed was your own arrogance and bias.
I don't even understand how anyone could think like this if they know anything about cars. Modern trucks were designed for carrying loads (hehe) long distances through rural areas with rough to non existent roads.
You think the average guy selling mangos or hauling farm equipment still uses an ox and cart or a Citroen?
Oh, I'm condescending HARD here. The mere fact that this conversation is ongoing is extremely condescending. It's extremely boring, seeing how I've had it multiple times already, so the only thing keeping me here at all is the opportunity to condescend, frankly.
FWIW, and to engage honestly with data, because data requires honesty, we're just citing different sources. I think the one I pulled, which was dated September 2023 and had the Hilux and F150 at 6 and 9, respectively. I suspect it was a "year so far" list, given the date, but it doesn't cite a primary source, so I couldn't guarantee it.
Anyway, speaking of arrogance and condescension, I live in a rural area and have ridden on the back of Citroen vans to school more than once (don't do that, it's dangerous and illegal). So... average mango seller where? Because the anwer is yes. I've also gone around on the back of a tractor a few times.
Who the hell is smug about their own ignorance? If you're going to be arrogant and condescending at least be right about what you're talking about.
Oh, you have no idea the things I can be smug about. I am very good at it. Lots of practice.
Not being smug about my own ignorance, though (although I can and I have). I'm being smug about the insane immediate ragefest you get at the insinuation that pickups may not be a great solution for a daily driver. That's a way lower level of smug. Entry level smug right there. Was doing it before you even got to this conversation and it was eeeeasy.
I live in rural Germany. The only people with these trucks are the ones that never use the bed. In fact, I've recently seen one at the hardware store. The guy bought a shelf maybe 1.5 m long. Neither did it fit in the bed, nor did it fit in the cabin. Such a worthless piece of shit.
Everyone in the trade business uses vans. For heavy duty hauling they obviously use something bigger than a fucking pickup truck.
That out of the way, I see the appeal in smaller old-school trucks. They usually have larger beds than the ridiculously oversized pieces of shit that start sprouting in urban areas.
Everyone in the trade business uses vans. For heavy duty hauling they obviously use something bigger than a fucking pickup truck.
My 2015 Dodge Ram Hemi pickup truck and 24,000lbs/11,000kg tandem axle tilt bed trailer would like a word. Pretty hard to get a skidsteer or tractor in a van........And the cost to own and insure even a single axle truck and trailer is far more expensive, (I've done the math), and far less versatile. And hiring a large truck makes scheduling very difficult for weather sensitive jobs far too often. Not to mention the loading and offloading almost always needs a ramp or dock of some kind for those larger trucks - hence the tilt bed trailer.
And when not being used as a haul/work vehicle, it can get groceries or even a 6 pack of beer...........
That said, do urbane Cowboys/Cowgirls need a pickup truck? Probably not. But it's a free, but often stupid choice they are free to make.
I think people tend to pick the wrong targets in this debate. Stuff like the Ford Maverick and F150 are usually people who really don't need a truck, and most crossover/SUV drivers would be fine with a sedan. Once you get into the F250 and higher, though, you're mostly dealing with people who actually use their truck for a living. There are reasons workers in the US choose those--such as fifth wheel trailers--and there are reasons why European workers don't (except when they do).
And it's really silly. Vans for that kind of work are generally truck frames with a different back end. It doesn't make that much difference at that level. The best you can say is that the hood doesn't stick out as far and therefore visibility is better, but even that's not always true, and there are other tradeoffs with that design.
This is a strictly American thing
If by "American" you mean North American, then yeah, you are correct, because pickups are also super popular in Canada and Mexico. But I don't think that's what you mean. I think you mean to specify the US which again, is incorrect. The fact that pickups are so popular in Canada and Mexico as well tells us that contrary to what I suspect you're trying to imply, there isn't some kind of special innate idiotic pickup truck gene that's unique to Americans and that instead, it's all about marketing.
After all, if marketing and advertising didn't work, it wouldn't be a multi-billion dollar industry. What the big American car companies have done with amazing effectiveness is to make owning a pickup truck an intimate part of a lot of people's self-image. That's what you are arguing against and that's why it's nearly impossible to change anyone's mind about it.
That's all fair enough. And let me just include the first part about North America in there and not also pick the fight about Canada being mostly in that same cultural bundle because this thread is already trolly and angry enough.
I think if this thread wasn't such a hassle it'd be interesting to pick some of that apart, because I do think the marketing is culturally bound, not arbitrary (if it was arbitrary it would have worked in the places where it didn't). I do think it's obviously hard to argue about the identitarian bit you mention, though, because... well, look around this thread.
Congratulations on having a different experience! A van is too big for my tastes, you know they are basically enclosed trucks right?
I clearly said I didn't want a tank, and have no idea why you automatically equate an exposed bed with a tank. Do you know how small a Brat was?
Non-tank sized vans are available and have better aerodynamics and overall utility than a truck.
Those are called hatchbacks and are pretty awesome! Unfortunately the Civic hatchback I had for 15 years would have been better for the last 5 years I owned it if the hatch area was just a bed becauseI no longer needed a back seat but would have been 10x more convenient with an open bed in the fact same space instead of being enclosed.
They may have better coefficient of friction, but vans have a high frontal cross section. That tends to cancel out that advantage.
We rented a minivan on a recent trip and got 35+ mpg with a very full load, and it had some decent get up and go. It had a long sloped front end and I would absolutely recommend minivans to anyone who needs more space than a hatchback!
It wouldn't work for me outside that situation though, which is why I keep saying no to those suggestions.
Was that a hybrid? I'm having trouble finding a minivan that gets that kind of mpg that isn't a hybrid. Conversely, a hybrid crossover will easily break 40mpg for both city and highway. It weighs around the same while having better aerodynamics.
To be clear, aerodynamics dominates on the highway, and weight dominates in cities.
It was not a hybrid and I know how aerodynamics work.
Right, but in this scenario you end up with two vehicles: a light, economical car to drive and a dedicated work vehicle. The original point is that expensive, heavy vehicles as daily drivers can be less practical and economical than mutiple cheaper, dedicated vehicles.
For some reason, this makes Americans, and especially American car people VERY angry to hear, and it's bizarre.
The original point is that expensive, heavy vehicles as daily drivers can be less practical and economical than mutiple cheaper, dedicated vehicles.
Hold up here. Americans have too many cars per capita as it is. Your solution is to increase that? Especially when cars come with a big environmental footprint right out of the factory. Because I'm over here trying to consolidate how many cars we have and use an e-bike more often.
I don't think you've thought this through.
Well, see, the secret is you probably don't really need that truck bed in the first place, so if I was to guess, I'd say that's why there's a bit of resistance to that idea. The working hypothesis here is that if you bought a sensible car that makes sense as a car... and a separate van to work, then you'd never buy a van. Which is what most people do here, honestly. You don't so much buy a van as you know a guy who does own a van and will let you use it for the thirty minutes that you actually need it once or twice a year in exchange for a beer later.
Which is probably how you end up with fewer cars per capita than the US and still have work vehicles separate from whatever you use to take the kids to school or go get groceries.
Also, you send the kids to school in a bus and walk to the shop. That also helps, I bet.
I'm not sure why you think a van is a better option. If we're talking about people who actually use their big hauling thing for more than running to Starbucks, they're different options for different uses. They're not more efficient, and on fact may may be less efficient in comparable models. The bigger ones are built on exactly the same truck frames.
People who actually need one can choose whatever. I don't have a need for either, don't have either, and probably never will. But I've seen this van argument a lot, and I think it's silly and misunderstands how the two are built and their tradeoffs.
But no, we're NOT talking about those people. At least we're not just talking about those people. And a van that is not being used because you're taking a smaller car is, in fact, more efficient than a pikcup truck. The point isn't "buy a van instead of a pickup", it's "buy a sensible car instead of a pickup, and if you do need a work vehicle get one of those on the side".
The entire point is we're talking about how Americans in general apply this very specific kind of FOMO to determine whether to go for a thing they don't really need in the event they might need it, that was the point of the thread. Like, you know, driving a luxury work vehicle everywhere when you could just have a practical small car for people and a practical cheaper work vehicle for the same price. Then it weirdly morphed into how if you point out that this applies to pickup trucks people get mad at you on the Internet. And then people got mad on the Internet.
Also, second time in this bizarre argument somebody raises "vans are just built on pickup frames with a roof on them". The other guy who said it went to sanity check online and came back reporting that actually no, that wasn't the case, at least for the popular examples he was thinking of. I think that may be a US thing as well where one popular van was built like that and it became common to think that was the norm but the popular vans in places where vans are populars are not built like that. It's weird, I hadn't heard that one before until I accidentally pissed off pickup people the first time.
More to the point, I'm asking why you think vans are a superior option to trucks in this role.
Things like the Ford Transit or Mercedes Metris are built like cars with unibody construction and car suspension. That's fine as far as it goes, but they're not clearly superior to a pickup in the same size range. The Transit Connect is roughly comparable to the Ford Maverick, and I believe even uses the same engine. Comparing fuel economy:
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=47363
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=46370
The van has a smidge better city millage, but the truck has a fair bit better highway. That's likely because the truck weighs a bit more (which matters more in the city) but has better aerodynamics (which predominantes for highway cruising).
Why would a truck have better aerodynamics? Frontal cross section. Vans tend to be as tall as a truck, but also sit lower like a sedan. They would tend to have better drag coefficient, but their frontal cross section is worse. By way of contrast, a motorcycle with a rider has a drag coefficient that makes a truck look good, but has a relatively tiny frontal cross section.
And here we might have our answer to why Americans may prefer trucks in this role: more highway driving.
Past the Transit and Metris size, yes, vans are built like trucks. A Ford E350 van is an F350 frame. Same with the Chevy Express and the Silveroto. The Mercedes Sprinter doesn't have a direct pickup analog, but it is sold as a cab chassis for customization.
More specifically, they tend to be body-on-frame construction. They have to in order to support higher weight capacity. The Sprinter is a bit of a hybrid between unibody and body-on-frame--hence allowing a customizable back end--but anything bigger than that has to be built like a truck regardless of what's on the backside. Unibody car-like frames don't cut it.
In what "role"? How is that more to the point? I never said "vans are better than pickups", I said "for the money of an expensive pickup you can get a hatchback and a van". So not that vans are better, but that you can cover the dual role of a very expensive "truck" that you also use as a daily driver for a thing that is a more practical daily driver and a work vehicle.
So no, the idea isn't that you're driving a van to take your kids to school like some deranged weirdo (again, I've been that kid, don't do it, it's a bad idea). The point is that using a work vehicle as your daily driver is expensive and inconvenient for everybody else in the road.
Incidentally, you guys are being obnoxious enough about this that I today I walked past a Citroën Berlingo parked in a compact car spot on the side of the road and went "heh, look at that". That's what you made me do. I shouldn't care about this. This shouldn't even register. Stop making me notice practical vans.
I don't want two vehicles that don't do what I want. I want one vehicle, that is the same size and gets the same gas mileage as a car that does what I want by having an open bed in the back instead of an enclosed hatchback.
Its like you can't read.
Note: The Subaru Brat, which is one of the example I said that I wished they sold trucks in today, was smaller than a Honda Fit. Do you think a Honda Fit is big?
I'm amazed they haven't accused you have having a small penis because you want a (checks again to be sure) Subaru Brat.
We had a used Brat when I was a teenager in the 80s! The seats in the bed had already been taken out and it was a rust bucket, but just fun on a bun until my older brother rolled it in a ditch.
A modern version with an electric drive train would be fantastic!
No, hey, I get it. You want a cool toy, not a boring practical solution. That's legitimate. I own many things that are not the optimal answer to a problem just because I like them.
The sheer rage at the insinuation that the option may not be optimal is fascinating, though. So uniquely American. Which is what this thread is about. "The maximal use case".
For the record, I had not heard of the "Honda Fit". I guess it's like a Japanese Fiat Punto. Also for the record, what both the Fiat Punto and the Honda Fit seem to have is a back seat. But hey, again, a cool toy, not an optimal solution. Maximal use case. It's a good observation.
Considering you have absolutely no idea of what he does on a daily basis and no idea of how often he needs the vehicle for those situations. Plus no idea of his parking space. I'm not sure how you are able to tell him what he should buy.
I didn't? Like I explicitly didn't. I explicitly say up there that I get it and even if I think it's not optimal you get to buy stuff you like that's not optimal because you think it's cool.
This only reinforces my point about the sheer, unbridled rage this subject triggers in a certain stripe of car people, and it's both hilarious and kinda terrifying.
The only rage here is you against literally anything that has an open bed, even if it is the same size and gets the same mileage as a compact car.
I swear to you, if I ever have any kind of emotion towards "anything that has an open bed" beyond mild bemusement I will quit the Internet, abandon the concept of self-propelled vehicles and ride a donkey to a mountain monastery to rethink my life.
I just didn't know you could get people on the Internet to froth at the mouth by implying that pickup trucks aren't perhaps the most efficient mode of transportation until a couple of weeks ago. Now that I do know it feels irresponsible not to use this power. Especially when somebody brings up how culturally strange some purchasing choices are in the US.
What about a small car trailer?
How is an extra piece of equipment that is less convenient and takes up more space a better solution? Where the fuck am I going to keep that when I could just have that same space in the back of a vehicle instead of an enclosed trunk?
Either truck means something different in your language where you cannot conceive of one being small, or you are somehow opposed to a vehicle with an open bed existing at all.
Please keep offering less convenient solutions than having an open bed in the back of a car sized vehicle though, it is entertaining how fucking ridiculous the suggestions are instead of just agreeing that a smaller trucks would be a nice alternative.
The base answer to your problem is owning a **small and light trailer. One that is capable of hauling a few boards or an appliance or two like a clothes washer or refrigerator. And when done with the task, can be parked in a corner and forgotten until needed again. A perfectly good one can be had for around $500US - Some simple assembly required.
**Apartment dwellers might not be able to own one.
Or just go to UHaul, rent a truck or van for $20, then return it.
That can work also. As long as there is a U-Haul to rent from and they have what you need when you need it. And it WILL cost more than $20 - been there done that.
The trailer takes up space when not being used, the back half of the vehicle does not. This is true no matter what the parking situation is. Zero space is better than any space, if the back half of the vehicle doesn't need to be enclosed or have seating.
The trailer requires some extra maintenance too. Keeping things oiled, tires aired up and replaced regularly. Driving with the trailer means needing to use to parking stalls when parking. Backing up with trailers is a lot of fun too!
The trailer is a very situational benefit for situations where the main vehicle space is needed. Hell, if I need a trailer I can just rent one from UHaul. But I don't when the same thing is solved with a truck bed, and the truck bed format is far more convenient if the vehicle with the bed is the same size as a normal car!
There are light trailers that can be stored vertically to take very minimal space and can be deployed in a few minutes of effort.
The maintenance costs and effort of greasing two bearings and tire replacement is still far, far, less than the total cost of owning and insuring a pickup truck. Plus, they have the bonus of being a whole lot easier to load and unload due to the much lower bed height.
Any place you might go with your trailer to haul larger/heavier items will have proper room to park your vehicle and small trailer. After all, they are getting far larger trucks and trailers to receive and ship items in bulk. Appliance, home improvement, furniture stores and the like seldom have "street only" parking. And if that's all that's available, you didn't need either the trailer or a pickup truck to shop there.
Backing up a trailer isn't hard - learn to drive.
Learn to read and understand words.