[Facebook federation megathread] Downvote this post if you want lemm.ee to federate with Threads. (Updated)
Context
There have been a lot of posts and comments recently about Facebook entering the fediverse, and how different instances will handle it. Many people have asked me to commit to pre-emptively defederating from Threads before they even implement ActivityPub.
The lemm.ee federation policy states that it's not a goal for lemm.ee to curate content for our users, but we will certainly defederate any server which aims to systematically break our rules. I want to point out here that Facebook makes essentially all of its money from advertising, and lemm.ee has a no advertising rule - basically, Facebook has a built-in financial incentive to break our rules. ActivityPub has no protections against advertising, so it's likely we will end up having to eventually defederate from Threads just for this reason alone.
However, I would still like to get a feel for how many people in our instance are actually excited for potential federation with Threads. While personally I feel that any theoretical pros are by far outweighed by cons, I do want to use this opportunity to see how much of the community disagrees with me. I am not intending to run this instance as a democracy (sorry if anybody is disappointed by that), but I would still like to have a clear picture of user feedback for potentially major decisions such as this one. This is why I am asking every user who wants lemm.ee to federate with Facebook to please downvote this post.
Here are some reasons why I personally believe that Threads will have a negative effect on the fediverse
As mentioned above, Facebook is completely driven by ad revenue. There is nothing stopping them from sending out ads as posts/comments with artificially inflated scores, which would ensure that their ads end up on the "all" page of federated servers.
Threads already has more users than all Lemmy instances combined. Even if their algorithms don't apply to the rest of the fediverse directly, they can still completely dictate what the "all" page will look like for all instances by simply controlling what their own users see and vote on.
Moderation does not seem to be a priority for Threads so far, meaning that they would create massive moderation workloads for smaller instances.
In general, Facebook has shown countless times that they don't have their users best interests in mind. They view users as something to exploit for revenue. There are probably ways they are already thinking about hurting the fediverse that we can't even imagine yet.
By the way, we're not really in any rush today with our decision regarding federation
Threads does not have ActivityPub support yet today
Even if they add ActivityPub support, their UX is geared towards Mastodon-like usage - it seems unlikely that there would ever be proper interoperability between Threads and Lemmy
We don't really know what to defederate from - it's completely possible that "threads.net" will not be their ActivityPub domain at all.
So go ahead and downvote if you feel defederation would be a mistake, and feel free to share your thoughts in the comments! It would be super helpful to me if folks who are in favor of federating with Threads could leave a comment explaining their reasoning.
Update:
By now, it's clear that there is a group of users who are in favor of federating with Threads. The breakdown is like this (based on downvotes):
lemm.ee users: 136 in favor of federating with Threads
Others: 288 in favor of federating with Threads
While it seems to be a minority, it's still quite a few users. There is no way to please all users in this situation - any decision I make will certainly inconvenience some of you, and I apologize for that.
A big thanks to everybody who has shared opinions and arguments in comments so far. I think there are several well written comments that have been unfairly downvoted, but I have personally read all comments and tried to respond to several as well. I will keep reading them as they come in.
The main facts I am working with right now are as follows:
The majority of lemm.ee users are strongly opposed to immediately federating with Threads
Facebook has a proven track record of exploiting users (and a built-in financial incentive to do so)
We currently lack proper federation/moderation tools to allow us to properly handle rule breaking content from Facebook
Considering all of the above, I believe the initial approach for lemm.ee should be to defederate Threads, and then monitor the situation for a period of time to determine if federating with them in the future is a realistic option
In order to federate with them, the following conditions would need to be fulfilled:
There needs to be actual interoperability between Threads and Lemmy
Threads needs to prove that they are not flooding instances with rule-breaking content (mainly ads and bigotry for lemm.ee)
There needs to be a mechanism to prevent feed manipulation by Threads algorithms (potentially this means discarding all incoming votes from Threads)
Note: this is an initial list, subject to change as we learn more about Threads.
Again, I realize this approach won't please everybody, but I really believe it's the best approach on a whole for now. Please feel free to keep adding comments and keep the discussion going if you think there is something I have not considered.
Please follow lemmy.ml and stand up to the big guys and defederate in whatever form it comes. This is a chance to finally stand alone from the Mega corps and have some peace and quiet.
EDITED: After initially misreading the post, I'm actually very glad that I just joined an instance where the majority of people is so against Facebook and their scummy business.
I’m excited by the potential of the fediverse, and I want the fediverse to grow. That means more users. However, the noncommercial nature of the fediverse is why I’m excited by it in the first place. I couldn’t care less if there’s yet another gigantic social network full of ads.
Allowing any profit-driven interest to influence the fediverse risks destroying what makes the fediverse interesting and special. I’m not willing to risk the fediverse in order to grow it.
Considering Meta mines as much data from as many people as possible just to advertise to them and also they can’t even launch Threads in the EU right now because of how aggressively it tracks literally everything about their users and Threads’ only purpose is to gather more data to sell to more people, I think that alone is worth not letting them play.
Staying as far away from Meta has been my goal since leaving Facebook 8 years ago. I really like this instance, it meets all of my needs for my Reddit replacement.
I don’t see a reason to federate with a corporation unless they were able to deliver something I’m not currently getting and their corporate support would greatly improve performance/sustainability for this instance. But based on previous experience, a company entering a space usually makes it worse.
This is a community of individuals escaping from corporate manipulation and abuse. As a new platform, we need to support our own and grow a healthy foundation.
If we give this parasite access to our community, others trapped on meta platforms will never leave their comfort zone to try something new and potentially better(to them).
When were big and strong like ox and with a name more recognizable than reddit, we can federate and show off our strong community. Or move on due to fading interest in threads like most meta platforms
I don’t trust anything about them. Any virtuous incentive people have to grow and maintain and moderate the fediverse is lost on anyone with any affiliation to Facebook. They have one goal and that’s money. Anything and everything they do and can do will always be for that.
For this reason, I would never want to be connected to their services and any federated service like Lemmy that I’m enjoying being a part of - if it should ever connect with Facebook in any way - would be my signal to abandon ship.
I think like a lot of people the reason I'm putting up with the growing pains of a decentralized network, the fragmentation of communities that come with it, and sync issues across instances is because we want to try something that isn't run by corporations that views users as something to sell off to the highest bidder. If I wanted to deal with a centralized large user base why wouldn't I just skip this whole fediverse thing and go straight to Meta or reddit or Twitter or tiktok that is way more user friendly? I'm not here because I want another reddit clone that ends up being run or is influenced by another billionaire asshole down the line.
we can federate whenever we want, when they gain our trust, so no need for urgent, defederate please don't make into an instagram clone while it is shaping
I read this post and have been pondering this question for a good chunk of the day. I had a thought that may or may not have any impact. I hope I can convey this correctly.
Say Lemme.ee defederates fromThreads. But we are federated to Lemmy.world. Because we are federated with them, and they are federated with Threads, is there going to be some...Threads posts leaking though to our all. Or does the all feed only extend one..."hop"?
My brain keeps going to something akin to six degrees of Kevin Bacon. I know it's not the same, but wasn't sure how the fediverse handles the "all feed". One hop.. two hop....etc.
Thanks for any insights from people who actually know how this works.
Personal feelings: If I ever want to view Meta content, I'll go to a Meta owned app. I'm enjoying this new frontier and want it to thrive as safe haven away from massive corporate sponsorship.
Strongly in favour of defederating. Firstly because I don't want advertising or big businesses taking over feeds, but the point you made about moderation is critical. The sheer amount of content that instance admins will have to deal with will be unmanageable.
As someone who deleted Facebook in 2012 and has zero intention of going back to any of Meta’s products… I don’t see a need to defederate and would prefer not to.
Hear me out… maybe i just am still figuring this whole fediverse thing out but I don’t see how it can be bad.
If there are ads or otherwise bad content on threads, I’m not going to see it unless I actively go follow treads accounts. Like I still have trouble finding/following content across federated instances, basically going there, getting the name of a community, coming back here, and plugging it in.
Any data they could mine about me they could get anyway since it’s either publicly available or not. They could just stave the fediverse under some other domain/IP that doesn’t even need to federate.
In the event they try to Embrace, Extend, Extinguish, they would just change the activity pub protocol in some way, at which point we would have two competing standards. Open source ActivityPub, as used by Mastadon, Lemmy, and the like… and Meta’s ActivityPub… if we don’t use theirs their extended (bad) version of the protocol, they essentially fork and we don’t get to see their content. So we’re just going to defederate now so they don’t have that carrot to dangle over us? Why not just know if they starts fundamentally changing the protocol we just let them break themselves back off from us? We don’t lose anything we aren’t giving up already by defederating.
The ONLY thing that fundamentally changes for me is I don’t get to follow any Threads accounts from the relative safety of the fediverse. At which point I probably have to bite the bullet and spin up my own dedicated instance so I can chose to not defederate. All that said I’m more concerned about this on the Mastadon side of things, as like you said it probably wouldn’t even integrate well with the Reddit style fediverse.
Remembering what Facebook did with XMPP (initially allowed their users to speak to other messengers' users, then got sloppy with compatibility, causing great workload to unrelated app developers, and finally, having accumulated enough mass for Messenger, stopped supporting XMPP) - Facebook should be avoided like fire.
Facebook is also bad for society, allowing manipulation (targeted advertizing), aggregating great amounts of user data (harming privacy) and prioritizing user engagement regardless of the social cost (a hateful conflict generates more clicks than cat photos).
You know, we've already got an app to go to deal with Zucks' social media hole. It would be nice to have a space that wasn't connected to it. Then we all get the best of both worlds.
Threads, Facebook, Meta, ZucctheSucc can go pound sand.
If Lemm.ee doesn't defederate I'll need to move to anther instance or host my own. I'm not willing to feed them data to enrich the evil shits that run that company.
I’m happy to manage my own subscriptions and block settings to hide any content from Threads or other instances I may not enjoy. I don’t need my instance doing that for me.
My understanding of the argument for defederation is basically “but they might monetise all our social graphs”, but our content is publicly available on the Internet, so they can do that regardless.
I have some questions about federation. Is this an ok thread to ask in?
Basically... The model of federation I have in mind is an opt-in, mutually agreed one. Is this not the case? In other words, I assumed that federation with Threads would require both Threads and lemme.ee to agree to federate.
If that's the case, then the question being posed should be whether we should opt in to federation with Threads, no? So I feel I must be misunderstanding something. Can someone help me understand how content from Threads could wind up in my feed through not specifically degenerating from Threads or through some kind of mod inaction?
fwiw, I am against federation for reasons I've seen posted commonly among other respondents, so I won't bother to list them out. That is as unlikely to change as Meta's reputation for user data collection.
Not a lemm.ee user but I think we should all defederate from threads. The fediverse is supposed to provide a safe space from these corporations, not welcome them with open arms, especially Facebook.
One of the biggest problems with Facebook has been it's monopolistic control over social media.
People can't migrate away from it because of the effective monopoly. I've tried to move social platforms dozens of times and the thing that makes me come back is the fact that there are certain people that are on Facebook that refuse to migrate. They are happy with the status quo over there. And the only way for me to communicate with them is for me to maintain my Facebook account.
Federation allows me to move off of Facebook and still keep in contact with those who refuse to move off of Facebook. I've always wanted Facebook to support federation for this big reason.
All of this translates to threads, there are some people who just aren't nerds, people who aren't like us and aren't willing to deal with the growing pains of something like lemme or mastodon or other federated platforms.
There really is no benefit to de-federating with them that outweighs that as far as I can tell.
I have a lot of friends on Twitter who are now migrating to Threads. They are not going to come to the Fediverse no matter how much I annoy them. Federating with Threads will allow me to interact with them.
Also if the Fediverse works with Threads, a few of those people might come over.
I'm for federating with any instance that doesn't exist explicitly to break this community rules. I turned blind eye to not defederating Exploding Heads because Lemm.ee is a small server that doesn't host any big communities they could interfere with. I thought it was an indication that it's an instance that would allow me to curate my experience.
This is a European server, it's fair to assume most of the users here are protected by GDPR. The talk of scraping data seems like a nonsense, Meta can do it without federating. And as Elon learned, closing your APIs means other entities will do web scraping which puts more stress on your infrastructure.
I don't understand how most people here are for open standards, interoperability and the moment their protocol of choice gets traction they drop everything and opt to create their walled garden, except with 5 dozens of people. This is it, you've literally won. I guess some people will keep fighting big corporations for any reason on principle. That's ok but not something most people are interested in.
There's a lot of talk about how XMPP was killed by Embrace, Extend, Extinguish. I'm convinced 99% people posting that same blog post that sells opinions as facts, haven't actually lived through it. XMPP was embraced, then Google and Facebook got bored, dropped it and moved on. They did not poison the protocol in any way.
If Meta tries to extend Activity Pub in a malicious way then that's the point you defederate. If they get bored of Activity Pub and move on you have lost nothing, you probably gained more users than you would if you didn't federate. I don't believe it will come to this, EU Digital Markets Act means more platforms will have to open up, other commercial platforms will join in to capitalize on that and we'll end up with consortiums coming up with reasonable changes to standards. If not they'll get bonked by EU regulators with even more laws.
Finally, it's a shame that we've done this vote via Lemmy post. It has hit "All" view for a lot of people who are not part of this instance and probably irreversibly poisoned this discussion.
Firstly, I am anti-Meta. If someone on lemmy/mastodon wants to use Threads and their instance blocks it then they are free to get a Threads account. Likewise if someone is using Threads and see what they feel is an incomplete experience, they are free to find a lemmy instance and sign up.
Here's my question, and it's one I haven't seen anyone else ask. Is refederating possible? Difficult? If we assume the worst and are wrong have we cut off our noses to spite our faces?
I changed my instance yesterday to a Meta defederated one. An absolute no brainer. And people who think, that you shouldn't defederate from Meta, can just install and use Threads along with all other Meta crap. Meta will never change. Lemmy is a fresh breath of air, the idea behind is great. Don't burn it.
I don't believe that federating with Threads will be completely apocalyptic, and I actually believe that the commercialization of the Fediverse is the way it will take over the internet. You can't run the entire internet on a crowdfunded and volunteer-only basis, after all. The beauty of the Fediverse is that competition is easy and enshittification is difficult due to how easy it'll be to simply take your activity somewhere else, meaning that companies like Meta won't be able to do the type of things they're known for.
That being said, I believe that for technical reasons, as well as the fact that it'd be very easy for Meta to strangle their competition in the cradle if we (Referring to the Fediverse as a whole, as this isn't even my instance) cooperated with them, nobody should federate with Threads until the Fediverse is large, resilient, and technologically matured enough to survive a hostile takeover attempt by a corporation like Meta. Basically, defederate from them for now, and reconsider at a later date when the Fediverse has had time to establish itself. I think in the future, the Fediverse will be able to easily deal with Threads being popular and enshittifying itself, but I simply don't think we're there yet.
I think this is a psychotic overreaction to something that hasn't even happened yet. How about discussing it, setting plans and then blocking it if they cross a line?