S23 vs Pixel 8?
S23 vs Pixel 8?
Hi everyone,
Currently looking at either a Pixel 8 or a S23 as a replacement for my Zenfone 8 that is slowly becoming a hindrence due to (primarily) the battery. I would replace it, but as it costs a lot to do that here and I have needs for a non-compromised water protection DIY feels like a dangerous option.
So S23 vs Pixel 8, what would you guys recommend assuming I can get either for the same price?
I like the S23 hardware a bit better on paper, but as Pixel phones generally are very flashable my anti-Google sentiments might (ironically) push me there.
I would get a fairphone 5 for the hot-swappable battery etc if they weren't so expensive for what you get, and as Im buying second hand reuse is better for the environment anyways.
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I guess I didn't make that very clear, I want a non-closed system.
Apple os is obviously a jail, but Google is getting worse and worse at controlling their environment, what you're allowed to do with your phone and bloatware and so many of their featured updates encumber my phone.
For instance, I can't remove the date and time from my home screen?
Or Google still won't tell me which devices are connected to my hotspot?
That is absolutely ridiculous.
Fair phone on the other hand, is deliberately providing an open source Linux operating system for phones that allows actual privacy and customization of your phone if you choose that route.
I vastly prefer that option to any corporate environment OS I've tried so far.
China does not have the best tach, Taiwan is far and away leading the charge in chip tech, even Intel is ahead of chinese chip tech.
China has been the cheapest factory country for a couple decades, but that does not mean that they manufacture the best products.
And I haven't heard any reports about workers jumping off the roof of fairphone buildings in China, not to mention that apple works very hard to obscure their manufacturing base and organization, while fair phone does not.
I'm not convinced that Apple, who uses child labor and sweatshops to build their phones specifically to cut costs, treats their workers better than a company focused on transparency and ethical manufacturing and supply lines.
I'll need some sort of evidence if you're going to insist on that point.
I do keep hearing about graphene OS, and I will look into it has an alternative because this stock OS is as frustrating to use as any I've ever had.
I am not advertizing for apple, I hate that company. Just as perspective on how much Fairphone pays the workers.
FairphoneOS is fully FOSS?
I am comparing GrapheneOS against Fairphone, not Googles Pixel BS.
Agreed AOSP is a Google OS with actively restricted capabilities. But it is the best we have.
I get that, and I wouldn't trust any numbers Apple puts out there, seeing as how they constantly fudge their numbers in every aspect of their business, and we know they have no regard for workers rights at all.
I don't think Murena is strictly foss, but a lot of it is open source and it is degoogled, so you have a lot more control over your environment and all of the fundamental features apparently can be switched out according to your whim.
And murena explicitly doesn't send data to Google or any third party, by design. There are apparently specific tools in Murena that allow you to track permissions and exactly which apps are exporting data and how much, with the option to enable or disable those permissions and data uploads as you see fit, data sending is not pre-installed or checked by default.
As far as I understand, there aren't any apps that are "Oh no. Sorry you can't uninstall this. It's way too important. Also, you can't disable permissions and you can't stop sending data back to us", which are practically all Google services now.
So it's not the perfect solution, but it's a very large practical step in the right direction, and I don't want to take part in these giant unethical, money grubbing slave using companies anymore if there is any viable alternative.
I'm very happy there is finally a third option.
GrapheneOS was the first one to proxy SUPL and DRM leasing.
Also they selfhost connectivity check and attestation servers.
Maybe Murena copied their code.
Degoogled doesnt mean using AOSP or Chromium. Google products include Google everywhere.
Try to use googleteller with Chromium. Its a small tool that beeps if you connect to a google site. That shit was so scary
Degoogling means not depending on Google apps and services.
That's the point of murena, they've replaced most google-dependent apps and services in the OS with foss apps/services.
I'm not a zealot about degoogling, but I don't want to use their apps or services, and with murena I don't have to.
I don't use chromium, though I am well aware of the frequency and amount of data Google collects.
Pretty sick of it.
You use Chromium and you use a Google product because you use Android.
Please go to "settings - apps - show all apps" and enable "show system apps".
Do you have a webview? This is Chromium. Firefoxes Geckoview does the same but it is not feature complete and cannot be used as a webview.
Google is everywhere.
- updates
- store, certification
- safetynet, now play ingegrity to run banking apps etc
- RCS messages
- SUPL server for quicker A-GPS
- connectivity check for switching between wifi and cell data
- same server used to detect captive portals
- some device authentification when booting up
This is all AOSP. No Google apps on the surface, all FOSS. Then play services and frameworks are used for
- location services (unifiedNLP is abandoned, only available as a privileged system app through microG which is extremely insecure)
- displaying maps
- push messages for most mainstream apps
- google play games etc.
- chromecast
- RCS messages (play services and the Google Messages App needed)
- ...
Those either dont work if you dont have any play services, or you sandbox them to be restricted, possible to disable, isolate in a seperate profile, uninstallable and behind permissions. Or you use microG which fakes values, runs unsandboxed and is still a bunch of proprietary Google stuff.
I wonder how "degoogled" Murena is, please tell me!
You mean pixels, not the fairphone?
Yes, pixels are Google phones and use Google apps and services.
iPhones are Apple phones and use Apple apps and services
But both of these companies by default send a lot of your user data to various third parties.
That is the reason I want a privacy focused phone, to avoid being tethered to a particular environment(you can use alternate OSs by unlocking the bootloader following the steps fairphone provides on their website) and permissions you aren't allowed to customize and are designed to send data to third parties by default.
Murena is based on e/os, which is open-source, it doesn't send user data out by default, they replaced Google apps with open source apps, trackers are removed by default, you can restrict tracking on any apps you choose to have that do track you, Google servers don't check for connectivity, no Play store, location services by Mozilla,
this is the summary from the e/os site today:
https://doc.e.foundation/what-s-e#degoogling--ungoogling-in-eos
And this 2020 paper goes into a little more detail with the services that it blocks, although as you can see from the first link, they've obviously added more features that protect user privacy:
https://e.foundation/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/e-state-of-degooglisation.pdf
They replace Google services and apps with open source and privacy focused services and apps.
While privacy is important to me, the sustainability and general fairness of how fairphone treats their workers and customers and where they get their materials from are at least as important to me.
with fairphone, as far as anyone can tell, they don't source their materials from slave labor, they pay a fair wage, the materials are as sustainable and recyclable as possible, and I can customize my OS and how it operates.
Pixels are Google Phones will full support for a custom OS like GrapheneOS.
Buy the phone, unlock it, flash a real OS onto it.
I think you didnt get that a phone can have a different OS?
you can use alternate OSs by unlocking the bootloader following the steps fairphone provides on their website) and permissions you aren't allowed to customize and are designed to send data to third parties by defaul
You can unlock pixels easily. GrapheneOS extends those permissions, FairphoneOS CANT. Because otherwise they would lose their google certified OS status.
Murena is based on e/os, which is open-source, it doesn't send user data out by default
I hope I explained enough how AOSP sends a tom of data. Please prove that they actually replaced all those things like GrapheneOS did.
they replaced Google apps with open source apps
The Google Apps on AOSP are open source. What did they do with the preinstalled Chromium for example?
trackers are removed by default
What is that supposed to mean? Either they change the code or they still rely on Google Services. If they selfhost all those things I mentioned then yeah valid.
you can restrict tracking on any apps you choose
This doesnt work. Tracking is included in the APK files when building the App with Android studio. You have to decompile the app and remove it, then sign with your own key. You will need to do this on every update, as updates only work if the signing key is the same.
If you mean they use some kind of firewall this may be true. But most tracking goes to central servers (for reliability, these servers distribute the data) which may not be possible to block to keep functionality.
GrapheneOS has a network toggle and reduces the amount of data apps can collect (sensor permission, storage scopes, contact scopes,...), I suppose this is the best you can do.
no Play store
This will make the OS unusable for many people. Banking, insurance, state stuff all rely on Goofle. Their store, their service framework, their device verification.
Not having any playstore is bad. If they advise to use AuroraStore be aware that it is a legacy app and the "access all files" toggle is not needed. Also you should only use the session installer method.
Location services by Mozilla
This is nice, it uses UnifiedNLP and I already contributed a lot using TowerCollector, please do too.
The problem is just that unifiedNLP doesnt exist as a regular user app anymore.
You would need a minimal OS app that redirects location calls by apps to UnifiedNLP, unifiedNLP checks it and redirects it.
Currently it is embedded in microG only (the standalone unifiedNLP has no updates since years), which is an unsandboxed blob of Google Play services, ripped out various components, probably not up to date, with broken features and entirely relying on fake values to get the Play checks right
MicroG is insecure as fuck. I think they cant work with GrapheneOS'ses google play service "run as user app and still work" compatibility layer because they spoof values and more.
UnifiedNLP needs to become a standalone, modern android app again, running as a user app and getting the permission to serve location data by the OS.
GrapheneOS' A-GPS works fine luckily, but GPS may just vanish if the russians decide to bomb our sattelites. Having NLP (Network location provider) is essential and also saves battery.
I think microG still sends unnecessary data to Google when just using UnifiedNLP but no source on that.
this is the summary from the e/os site today:
I like Mapbox and this is only in microG. Simply microG does not work reliably and should not be used until it is modernized and compatible with gmscompat from GrapheneOS.
They also use Quad9 by default when setting a custom DNS.
Default apps:
- QKSMS: not maintained anymore, I hope they use Quik or something else. But it is way too enhanced, has no encryption support and I dont see a reason to use it.
- "a fork of Chromium/Bromite." I hope they use Cromite, Bromite is also unmaintained. GrapheneOS vanadium is most secure but relies on hardware features only on Pixel phones
- Magic Earth: if this is actually preinstalled as a system app that would be very bad. It is proprietary while there are OSMAnd and OrganicMaps that work fine
F-Droid: I hope they use F-Droid basic but I dont think so. The old app is outdated, uses outdated libraries to support old phones, is insecure and only allows automatic updates through the "fdroid privileged extension" which gives it unnecessarily escalated privileges. Modern Android supports automatic updates without any of that.Seems they have their own store, no idea about that
They replaced most of the Google server stuff, sounds okay. No info about device attestation and DRM leasing which means you will not be able to use Netflix etc, but this is fine for many privacy conscious people.
So in the end after arguing with GrapheneOS people too, the problem is:
- having an OS that will not support a vast majority of "critical inftastructure" like transportation, ensurance and banking apps, because those developers suck and make the apps rely on Google, is bad. GrapheneOS uses their sandboxed play and everything works. But it is a regular user app. You have to install it through their store if you want, and you can disable and uninstall every user app.
- microG is not reverse engineered magic. It is a subset of the play services, running unsandboxed (it can read critical device IDs, app storage, all files, call history, contacts, sensors, etc)
- unifiedNLP and a custom map tiler are very cool but dont work as sandboxed user apps so they are insecure poorly
- bundling a lot of random software like QKSMS or Magic Earth is not nice. Having an easy straightforward way to get all those apps is (and GrapheneOS sucks at this, as they call every appstore insecure lol). But you should not bundle random apps in your system, that may be insecure, too big, or unmaintained.
- their hardening will be very weak, also because they cant use many hardware features that GrapheneOS can use.
GrapheneOS focuses on simplicity, keeping everything as close to "how it is meant to be" as possible, embracing and patching what android can already do, like more permission toggles or running the Play crap without being able to read your IMEI.
If you buy a new device, just dont buy a phone with that OS, I am sorry.
If Murena would support all the security features of GrapheneOS, or simply take their free code, make it less secure to run on that hardware and add their nice UI stuff on top, it would be acceptable.
But buying a new phone that uses some random chinese OEM model and bundles in a random mix of LineageOS, unmaintained apps and insecure "privacy optimized" play services, just no.
That took hell of a time to write, I hope you appreciate it.
Btw you find every source on github.com/grapheneos
Btw we are mixing up Fairphone and murena all the time.
Fairphone has a different OS. This is murena with their /e/ stuff, which is less fair, more "LineageOS privacy optimized".
Fairphone runs a Google certified OS, which means they cannot harden it, have to preinstall Google apps and cannot add permission toggles for example.
I did read your entire article, but all of your arguments against murena make are based on theoretical consequences of your worst assumptions rather than the information available.
Fair phone isn't using some Chinese model and lineage OES or any legacy Play store.
There aren't many reported issues with banking apps and there is a whole community page about compatibility with banking app specifically for e/os.
I can find plenty of forum users complaining about not being able to use Android banking, insurance or transportation apps, actually had 2 pretty critical issues with my Google services for about 8 months and another for about a year and a half that have never been addressed and the less critical issue was randomly resolved after 8 months or so, so the possibility that an app might not work perfectly on murena isn't a convincing reason to stay away from an OS that doesn't have those problems so far, or to stay in OS that I know has issues.
I'm not sure why removing the Play store makes you think the OS is unusable when there are hundreds of thousands of people using these phones without the Play store.
I included the part about changing the OS for a couple reasons 1) because you seem so singularly focused on graphene OS, it seems that you didn't know you could switch OSs. And 2) they officially instruct their customers how to unlock the bootloader on their phone, which is another sign of transparency and responsibility.
It also makes it easier for me to try out graphene or some other OS if murena doesn't turn out to be what I was looking for.
You seem similarly focused on chromium, which, is that something other than a browser? Because you don't have to use that browser if you don't want to.
Plus, The guy who writes graphene kind of seems like a dick?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4To-F6W1NT0&t=821
Graphene must be a very secure project, because many people have suggested it, but there are a lot of problems with according to its users, it's not some kind of perfect OS, you can just customize it well and it is more privacy focused than stock Android, which is what I like about murena.
Plus, I can put my money where my mouth is and support sustainability, respect for consumers and corporate responsibility, and try something new.
Trying something new doesn't really worry me too much, and all of those hurdles you theorized could happen on a new OS, I have personally experienced in spades in Android phones (stock OS),. Which one would imagine would be the most compatible version of an OS.
Right now, murena and fairphone make more sense to me than keeping a limited Google phone I have been unimpressed with and switching to grapheneOS, written by someone who publicly speaks so recklessly and rudely so often without the proof that his OS is more secure or robust than murena.
Since you keep mentioning the banking apps that app incompatibility, I looked up "banking app not working murena" and "banking app not working graphene", nothing pops up for murena except a list of explicitly working banking apps and one customer asking if banking apps work and another customer responding "Yeah they work, Here's a list of the ones that definitely work."
Perhaps because graphene has more users, but there are dozens of search results for banking app compatibility issues with graphene OS.
I'm not worried about that myself, but is that why you're so worried about banking apps not working on fairphone? Because they don't work with graphene?
I appreciate different perspectives, but you seem singularly focused on pushing one project that just doesn't seem like a good fit for the social responsibility and ethical privacy-based software that I'm interested in regarding fairphone, that so far there doesn't seem to be any issues with. I'm also confident that I can overcome any compatibility issues that do arise, as they have on every phone I have ever owned and every OS I have bought or flashed myself.
Your arguments are a little tree-focused, while the mobile landscape and what goes into creating and implementing the little omnipresent devices is a vast forest.
Okay I am really confused.
Fairphone ships Google Android
But it seems Murena also sells Fairphones but with their /e/OS?
Fair phone isn't using some Chinese model and lineage OES or any legacy Play store.
Yeah I think originally /e/OS came on some Chinese OEM phone. For the rest please read their own specs, it makes no sense to repeat all that. /e/OS is based on LineageOS with minor modifications. They use microG.
There aren't many reported issues with banking apps and there is a whole community page about compatibility with banking app specifically for e/os.
Banking apps require many different things, many are not even a problem because of eOS security. GrapheneOS is more secure here and banking apps need exceptions.
But the core problem is Google Play verified OS which both OS are not. MicroG or sandboxed play services may have different problems. MicroG may be broken but is completely unrestricted, sandboxed play may need a path in the compatibility.
so the possibility that an app might not work perfectly on murena isn't a convincing reason to stay away from an OS
For you. My main profile is also clean but I use many prioprietary garbage apps I need on a shelter profile.
There are apps only on Play, all the stuff I mentioned. Its a shitty situation and GrapheneOS doesnt just add the playstore but it is sandboxed as a normal user app.
Every AOSP OS removes the proprietary playstore.
you seem so singularly focused on graphene OS, it seems that you didn't know you could switch OSs. And 2) they officially instruct their customers how to unlock the bootloader on their phone, which is another sign of transparency and responsibility.
I used debloated Android, LineageOS and GrapheneOS. You install GrapheneOS manually on a phone, you verify its integrity and then install it.
Google also has instructions on how to unlock the bootloader and GrapheneOS has a cool web installer.
It also makes it easier for me to try out graphene or some other OS if murena doesn't turn out to be what I was looking for.
I understand why you would like a fairphone. GrapheneOS is great, Google is not. You still give Google the money.
But that eOS is untrue about what it does. MicroG is not privacy friendly in any way and it is insecure.
You seem similarly focused on chromium
Dude you didnt read my last comment. Chromium is the Webview, most apps use it. It is a core part of the OS.
Plus, The guy who writes graphene kind of seems like a dick?
Doesnt matter if the software is the best, most secure and private you can get. Also he stepped back from being the lead and there are at least a handful of people with similarly profound knowledge and involvement in the OS.
He is still very active, he is very honest, fucked up about privacy theatre that other OS and projects like microG do. So may not always be very friendly but okay.
but there are a lot of problems with according to its users, it's not some kind of perfect OS, you can just customize it well and it is more privacy focused than stock Android, which is what I like about murena.
EOS ships stock AOSP which is the Android base of all other manifacturer stock Androids, and slams unrestricted Play services on top. Also they have their own services which people will use to they have less problems.
GrapheneOS is way more secure and does good changes. They also fix stuff like carrier functionality working without needing their garbage apps, or Google Camera (without internet permission) working without any dependencies.
They are not the same as they do things very differently. I would always recommend GrapheneOS as its complete.
As I said, if eOS would base ontop of it and maybe weaken many security fixes only working on Pixels, then they could add their fancy stuff on top and be a good OS.
and all of those hurdles you theorized could happen on a new OS, I have personally experienced in spades in Android phones
No they wont. All those devices have google services and are google certified. All apps will work.
Right now, murena and fairphone make more sense to me than keeping a limited Google phone I have been unimpressed with
Wait, you already have a pixel? Omg please install GrapheneOS and try it out before buying something so much less secure.
The phones may not be impressive and they have many things that suck like no headphone jack and a BS fingerprint sensor and cameras on the 6a at least. But they are very secure.
and switching to grapheneOS, written by someone who publicly speaks so recklessly and rudely so often without the proof that his OS is more secure or robust than murena.
I gave you the proof, look at their code. MicroG and LineageOS etc are insecure and GrapheneOS is. This is not a one person project since years.
The "drama" came from people that put the personal contact with an autistic person over the actual OS. Imagine maintaining such a huge project...
Btw if you read something about an "AOSP alliance", that never became a thing poorly, because they couldnt agree on things I guess. LineageOS, GrapheneOS, and more derivates like eOS, CalyxOS, DivestOS etc.
GrapheneOS is not based off LineageOS which is a big difference.
Perhaps because graphene has more users, but there are dozens of search results for banking app compatibility issues with graphene OS.
Yes because they have more users, a Github bug tracker for every app, multiple websites etc.
I'm not worried about that myself, but is that why you're so worried about banking apps not working on fairphone? Because they don't work with graphene?
GrapheneOS has a different hardware based attestation method that banking apps can use. I suppose eOS would not pass that test. Both apps are not Google certified so some apps will stop working.
you seem singularly focused on pushing one project
GrapheneOS is the only custom Android worth using if you care about security and privacy. I was on a LineageOS phone for years.
If murena forked GrapheneOS that would be okay. It still would have too slow updates probably, and incomplete firmware updates in the future, unlike a Pixel 8 that will last 6 years or so when I buy one.
that just doesn't seem like a good fit for the social responsibility and ethical privacy-based software that I'm interested in regarding fairphone,
All that "ethical privacy based software" makes no sense. Both are Android, GrapheneOS is way more privacy friendly and can run the same FOSS apps.
I feel like I wasted an hour or so of writing...
that so far there doesn't seem to be any issues with.
- the OS is insecure
- microG is play services, unrestricted, access to sensitive device data, sending data to Google. As I said it is not reverse engineered magic, this is a a proprietary app made by google, cut in pieces, minor things changed.
- the phone gets updated way too slowly even though they get early access due to being a Google certified OS. No idea about murena but I suppose their updates are also too slow.
- the firmware will not receive any updates before the advertized lifespan ends.
You just ignored anything I wrote if you think there are no issues, lol.
I'm also confident that I can overcome any compatibility issues that do arise
microG relies on proprietary code and is incomplete. I dont think you will.
The rest is just AOSP, so yeah
Your arguments are a little tree-focused, while the mobile landscape and what goes into creating and implementing the little omnipresent devices is a vast forest.
No idea what that means but there is too little collaboration which sucks.
- Cromite, Brave, Vanadium, Mulch
- microG, sandboxed Play services
- replacing AOSP apps that are unmaintained (SMS, dialer, gallery, keyboard, ...)
- solving UnifiedNLP and custom map tiles
- f-droid, accrescent, obtainium, eOS apps, GrapheneOS Apps, ...
If projects could agree on stuff that would be great.
GrapheneOS is just the best that there is currently. I would for sure whish to have more UX features but unless I do it myself and maintain it, or projects join effords, GrapheneOS is quick on everything security related (and adoption, they had a Pixel Tablet version in a day!) But very slow in UX-only features.
So please read what I wrote, didnt seem like it. Use what you like but if you already gave Google money I dont see why not install GrapheneOS and try it.
To round it up, I for sure would like an ethical phone, with a damn headphone jack, easily replaceable parts, but all the security features that my threat model requires. Google Pixels have gotten worse, at least they get smaller, but this is a tradeoff that I accepted.
I also want to do a post someday of all the crazy things you can do to customize Android, without needing root.
It's pretty rude and obviously incorrect to accuse me of not reading or ignoring what you wrote when you literally just listed in the same comment all of my points that address nearly every point you made about graphene and murena in your previous comment.
The proof that I read your comment is apparent in the responses that you have listed.
I've read this one too.
"> so the possibility that an app might not work perfectly on murena isn't a convincing reason to stay away from an OS
For you. My main profile is also clean but I use many prioprietary garbage apps I need on a shelter profile. "
Yes, for me. I have no problem customizing or troubleshooting an OS.
Many of your points about whether they're Chinese manufactured or sourced or which code murena uses or not, which apps murena uses, you are still making assumptions rather than using the contradicting available data, and then coming to spooky conclusions based on those assumptions.
I agree that if fairphone used different apps then they use, and they used different protocols than they use and if users were upset with fair phone, then it would be a worse idea to try fair phone.
But since fairphone doesn't use many of the apps or services you assumed they did, and they don't have the compatibility problems with these apps that you assumed they did and users don't complain about the phone, and there's no evidence of anything except transparency and responsibility, I'm not going to worry about these non-material anxieties.
And I know I've mentioned this a couple times now, but I'm more interested in the transparency and responsibility of the company themselves than I am about removing every single byte of data potentially sent to third parties.
The nice thing is that with Fair phone, it seems much easier with all of the open source apps and the open source OS to limit that exported data.
Regarding graphene, it is important how the team creating software behaves, I think it's a salient indication of how good the software and especially how strong the actual project is.
It comes down to trust.
If I'm buying a house, and there are two identical houses, except one is a five bedroom with a landlord who is an asshole and one is a 4 bedroom with a landlord who I trust, I'm obviously going to buy the four bedroom.
It doesn't matter if you get the fifth bedroom if you can't trust your landlord not to change the terms of your contract or to abide by them.
As for your parting concerns:
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You have no proof murena is insecure, and there is no evidence out there corroborating your claim.
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microg is less of a concern for me since I don't use Google apps, so the data that does get sent by micro g will be limited.
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I'm not very concerned about rapid updates since the rapid updates that come out on Android, for instance, often corrupt or render features unusable. I'm fine without receiving "feature updates" every 2 weeks.
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the fairphone 5 is going to be supported for 8 to 10 years until Android 18. That's the longest supported phone, I believe. Longest I've ever heard of, anyway.
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