Apple is officially dropping iPhone support for web apps in the EU - The Verge
Yep, Apple’s breaking iPhone web apps in the EU
Apple being Apple again. Just why does anyone actually like that company?
Man, they're seething against the EU, totally pissed that the legislators worked against their abuse over developers and rubbed against their cash cow.
Apple is all about money and fucking the user, being no different from Meta or Google. All they have is shinier hardware.
Much worse than Google IMO, at least when it comes to fucking with rules made by EU. Google usually tries to appeal legally and if it doesn't work out, they do what they must. This Apple bulshittery with 3rd party app stores is a new one. Someone here in this thread said that the worst EU can do to companies breaking DMA is forcing them to sell the division. I would love for Apple to push EU that far.
I'd argue they have better hardware. I'd love to have an iPhone running stock Android.
Apple is scary because they succeeded at creating a sect by frontal assault, so to say.
Google did that very subtly and precisely in the 00s, and like a decade ago firmly diverted to the MS way.
MS didn't go in the cult direction, they slowly and steadily capitalized on their monopolistic power with moderation and modesty.
While Apple almost from the beginning just shat on everybody and everybody asked for more. They even took the counterculture niche partially in the 90s and 00s. And for clueless people it's still them.
What about privacy though? Google runs an ad network, so clearly they have financial incentive to spy hard.
So does Apple, the difference being they grabbed it all to themselves. This is why they have "no tracking" options, to seal competition off while selling themselves as the privacy champions and also selling their in house ad solution. That and the fact that they worked with the government behind users back, and having a shoddy work to secure their OS.
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56995192
https://www.vox.com/recode/23045136/apple-app-tracking-transparency-privacy-ads
Apple is not any better than Meta, they just lie better.
Fuck apple with a cactus.
Sideways.
Lol, what phone are you using?
Edit: Why am I being downvoted? The dude said to fuck someone with a cactus. That's hilarious - no one else thinks that's funny? I'm still laughing lol
Third party browser & JavaScript engine + ability to install web apps on the Home screen = third party app store that doesn’t have to pay Apple’s fees.
When Apple could force everyone to use Apple’s WebKit, web apps didn’t matter as much as Apple could limit WebKit features to push people to the App Store. E.g. it took ages to get push notifications on WebKit. If Google and Mozilla are free to make whatever improvements to their browser engines, the need to have native apps on the phone decreases considerably.
That's what I really want personally, the mobile web Steve Jobs envisioned. Glorious web apps without flash.
He pushed everything into apps though. Getting rid of flash was a big part of that because JavaScript wasn't capable of all of the same things at that time. The canvas wasn't fully supported yet. That meant games and anything with crazy animations needed to be an app.
Killing flash was one of the first steps to where we are now. It may not have been perfect but it did a lot for its time.
Just why does anyone actually like that company?
I mean, if Google weren't shit, I'm sure Android would be more viable. They've can't even keep a consistent brand! They've gone from Google Play this and that, to migrating everything - including podcasts - to YouTube.
migrating everything - including podcasts - to YouTube
If only there were other apps for podcasts on Android, it would be a viable operating system.
Google is kind of crap, but Android has a lot more built-in escape hatches than iOS does. People don't seem to use them as much as I'd hoped, but they're available.
I've been using Podcast Addict for years now. Dunno why people think they are bound to one thing when Android offers so many choices.
Is there a podcast app that automatically plays the next episode of podcasts in the correct order (oldest to newest)?
I've tried a bunch of podcast apps and none of them seem to do that like Google podcasts did, unless I'm using them wrong.
That’s google’s strategy though.
Although they let you have full control and don’t force you to use their apps, it’s setup so the majority just use the defaults and are discouraged to sway away from google’s ways.
Its fully intentional.
While I totally agree, the average Joe is just going to gravitate to whomever controls the ecosystem. Kinda hard to trust a higher authority when they can't even get their in-house shit together.
Android is more popular globally, the only place where it isn't true (AFAIK) is USA where the colour of the text bubble is important for reasons that defy logic.
where the colour of the text bubble is important for reasons that defy logic.
That's just a thing tweens and teens do, it's just like when kids were obsessed with expensive shoes when I was a kid and would ostracize the kids who couldn't afford them. No sane adult I have ever met gave a shit about my text bubbles.
Yeah. We usually mock apple users in my country xd they go in high debt to get one of those candy bricks and can't even afford a cellular plan afterwards. Lmao
Google's marketing department defies logic every day.
I moved from android to iphone 2 years ago. As soon as this piece of crap dies, I'm moving back to android.
welcome back, let's hope Play Integrity has an exploit found in case you bought a Xiaomi or Alcatel or whatever.
Aah, the security again...
Fuck this company
Welp, this might be kbin for me. It’s the only circumstance I’ve really found a PWA necessary, although I’ve considered making PWAs of some online shops I frequent.
I suspect Apple is eliminating PWAs from safari in the EU just because they don’t want to be forced to allow 3rd party browsers to do the same. Let’s go ahead and throw the baby out with the bathwater.
I’ve actually got a U.S. apple account on an iPhone bought in Japan, and living in the EU temporarily. It’ll be interesting to see how this is going to play out for me.
Apple really sucks hard! What a terrible company! 🤮🤮
Tell me a corporation that doesn't suck.
When you realize corporations exist for the benefit of shareholders and not the customers it serves, it makes a lot more sense why they act the way they do.
That's why things like credit unions usually don't suck as hard.
Some suck just more.
My only example ever is pretty much Costco. But I can't think of a single tech company that isn't a massive asshole. There must be some tho, right?
Canonical 🏴
As a sysadmin and self-hoster this decision will absolutely make me drop Apple 150%. A clean and well implemented pwa was a big reason I have stuck with my iPhone 12 despite buying a pixel 7. I know there are options on Android but they all have issues either in ux or in ui that makes it very obvious I’m using a pwa.
This is a Reddit-style circle jerk. A LOT of people like Apple, because even though they’re almost as remorseless as Amazon or Microsoft or Google when it comes to maximizing profits, they build good products, create new product categories, and they’ve been doing both of those things for 40 years.
Is this a sleazy thing to do? Yup. Is it as sleazy as Meta intentionally allowing its algorithm to push softcore kiddie porn to teen Instagram users? Nope. Not even in the same ballpark.
Ah, sounds like what-about-ism. Metas behavior doesn't exempt Apple from criticism. That logic tends to drive all of our standards and expectations down.
Theres room to criticize and expect more from all of these companies who are more than capable of doing better.
That’s fair. It is whataboutism (is that one word or 7?) And, I’m pissed off not only that Apple is messing with basic DMA compliance, but that they literally forked all their software rather than do this in the US.
At the same time, I hate Apple the least of big tech, since they actually do give a crap about building good products and have done quite a bit of that. One can make the argument that zero other big tech companies do.
Should we expect more of all of them? I’m not gonna die on that hill! It is way, way too late to stop this corporatocracy, but one can hope.
create new product categories
I'm wondering what they are. The Newton was kind of cool, but before it's time. mp3 players had been out for years before Apple jumped on the bandwagon. Same with phones. I hope this doesn't come across as snarky "fuck apple", I'm genuinely curious.
They don't create new product categories. What they do is enter an existing category, do it the Apple Way, which is generally high-quality and integrated well into their ecosystem, and thus they become the default in people's minds.
They've almost never done anything new, but they integrate existing technologies better than almost every other company.
create new product categories
[chasing goose meme]
Like what?
LIKE WHAT MOTHERFUCKER!?
Rounded corners I guess.
they build good products
Which they charge x4 the value, and always underdeveloped one or two key features in order to scalp further inordinate amounts of money from their users to overcome the underperforming feature they neutered intentionally. Anyone buying from Apple is a chump getting taken advantage of and somehow is convinced to be proud of being abused by a corp.
They do sell good products... Kinda. But they are professional scalpers and scammers. iPhones get their performance nerfed via software after a few years to force you to upgrade. They charge Quadruple price for ram upgrades in their laptops. Now they're removing, not dropping support, but actively removing a feature that they themselves do not have to develop to stop you installing a feature on a device that you pay for.
Apple do not make superior products, apart from the iPad that's a genuinely superior product. They sell a walled garden that you have to pay continuous subscriptions to stay in. The subscription in this sense is their app store.
Is this a sleazy thing to do? Yup
That makes it illegal. The DMA explicitly requires gatekeepers be "proactive" (that's their words) towards opening up their platform. Removing features just in the EU is the opposite of that.
Besides iPod and iPhone. What product category did Apple create that wasn't there already?
Imo Apple rolls good solutions, but they very rarely actually innovate.
Whataboutism much?
Some services, like Facebook Gaming, use web apps as a way to get around the Apple App Store and its fees.
Smell coming out from this little hole here :)
Why should I pay apple because my user decided to buy a shitty phone
Whoever buys apple shit will learn eventually. Or just go extinct.
Another reason to keep hating apple. Fascists corporate america
Holy shit if this is true it will be a game changer for me . Will be start looking android devices. Such a retrograde movement!
It is true
Well, definitely sounds like something they'd do. EU might force them not to, though. Only time will tell how it turns out. But definitely recommend the move to Android!
The probably couldn't afford the development /s
But on the positive side, Apple is now forced to allow other app stores on all phones in the EU.
So that's probably a bigger win than this is a loss.
Depends on whether your app is distributed as a PWA or not. Mine is, so it kinda touches me personally.
@rikudou@lemmings.world Just an update for you. I just tried my PWA app on last stable version of iOS 17.4 and it works again. I made a quick google search if it's just me, or Apple actually reversed they decision and I found this (from https://developer.apple.com/support/dma-and-apps-in-the-eu/#dev-qa ):
Why don’t users in the EU have access to Home Screen web apps?
UPDATE: Previously, Apple announced plans to remove the Home Screen web apps capability in the EU as part of our efforts to comply with the DMA. The need to remove the capability was informed by the complex security and privacy concerns associated with web apps to support alternative browser engines that would require building a new integration architecture that does not currently exist in iOS.
We have received requests to continue to offer support for Home Screen web apps in iOS, therefore we will continue to offer the existing Home Screen web apps capability in the EU. This support means Home Screen web apps continue to be built directly on WebKit and its security architecture, and align with the security and privacy model for native apps on iOS.
Developers and users who may have been impacted by the removal of Home Screen web apps in the beta release of iOS in the EU can expect the return of the existing functionality for Home Screen web apps with the availability of iOS 17.4 in early March.
Finally, some good news.
Apple being Apple again. Just why does anyone actually like that company?
Marketing and build quality goes a long way to making people feel like a company is good.
What's this fabled build quality that other phones in the same price range don't have?
Sure others have the same build quality, but not the decades of marketing that Apple has. You gotta have both to get people to be irrationally loyal to a company.
I was starting to love pwa... But this is going to kill the momentum it was starting to have 😢
Well, let's hope EU fines them all the way to bankruptcy (I know that's not gonna happen, but one can dream).
Maybe there will be some positives at the end of the day? PWAs were mostly used to distribute proprietary obfuscated webapps and bloating up the web standards and browsers. Or maybe I just miss the days of web being a framework to publish interactive documents and not a base on which WebKit and Chromium try to achieve feature parity with Android.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Apple is officially axing support for progressive web apps for iPhone users located in the European Union.
While web apps have been broken for EU users in every iOS 17.4 beta so far, Apple has now confirmed that this is a feature, not a bug.
In an update to its developer website spotted by 9to5Mac, Apple says it’s removing homescreen apps for users in the EU because bringing them into compliance with the Digital Markets Act (DMA) would involve “an entirely new integration architecture” that’s “not practical” to build on top of the other changes it’s been forced to make.
In its post, Apple argues that web apps are built “directly on WebKit” — the engine used by Safari — allowing web apps to “align with the security and privacy model for native apps on iOS.” With the change to iOS 17.4, websites added to the homescreen now act only as bookmarks that open a new tab in your browser, rather than (potentially) standalone services capable of doing things like sending notifications and showing badges, a feature Apple just added to web apps last year.
Progressive web apps on iOS are also capable of storing data separately from your browser instance, which comes in handy if there’s a site you want quick access to and don’t want to keep signing in.
“Still, we regret any impact this change — that was made as part of the work to comply with the DMA — may have on developers of Home Screen web apps and our users.” Apple cites “very low user adoption” of homescreen apps as another reason for the lack of support.
The original article contains 399 words, the summary contains 272 words. Saved 32%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
TL;DR: Fuck Apple.
This is probably motivated by the EU decision that since no uses iMessage in the EU, Apple is not legally a "gatekeeper". Perhaps no one (i.e. fewer than 40 million people) uses web apps in the EU, therefore they are gambling that they are allowed to legally gatekeep in that market
I don't think so, they're just trying to make the experience worse and then say "it's the EU that made us do it".
Or like others speculate, to not allow third party browsers to do PWAs.
That shit brand created a cult for dimwits thinking they are better and smarter than everybody else by becoming platform slaves, and thus be exploited, as their only benefit of their deficiencies and dependency is consumism.
In real life ive never met anyone who thinks owning one brand of things makes you better than anyone else. If you have friends that think that way, maybe dont be friends with them, thats toxic. If it realy annoys you, block them so you dont see them online, lower the negativity impact on your mind. If you dont want to support a brand that has a product you want, buy it used so they dont get any money.
I guess you haven't met the San Francisco twats that were driving around in Teslas while wearing Vision Pros. Just because you haven't met one doesn't mean they don't exist.
I like there hardware but I don't like what they do with it and what they do with the software
They do have good software in some things but their limitations make it not worth it
How will this affect the Lemmy client Voyager? Is it considered a web app? My understanding was that it was.
Official announcement from Voyager:
Using an iPhone in the EU? Please install the Voyager native app. Apple is killing support for PWAs
As far as I know, it is a web app, meaning it could no longer be installed and will only work as a bookmark that opens your default browser.
No? It’s in the App Store! https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/voyager-for-lemmy/id6451429762 This PWA charge will only affect websites that you pin to your Home Screen.
It is, they have an official app store app as well though. However I find mlem to be a smoother experience, particularly scrolling, and it tends to keep its position when being backgrounded better than memmy and voyager.
A lot of kerfuffle over not much. If you’re going to release a web app instead of a proper app, then I’m quite happy to have a bookmark to the web page instead of a bullshit fake app wrapping the same bookmark. Don’t clutter my phone with that garbage.
And you're right for feeling that way, but having more choices is always better, not less. Apple doesn't care for how you use their software if it isn't the way they want it.
Progressive web apps do much more than just wrap a bookmark....
Most PWAs are trash, but there are some nice ones out there that feel a lot better when you ditch the browser chrome. Voyager for Lemmy is a good one. It feels native.
Most native apps are trash too.
It's more than that - for example in Safari after seven days with a bookmark, all data the website stores on device is deleted.
With a PWA saved to your home screen, your data is kept until you delete the icon from your home screen.
Also, PWAs don't have a browser toolbar.
Well, I'm definitely not paying Apple $99 a year to be on their shit store, so I've opted for PWA. It's made as an app from the scratch, not really much different from a native app.
Does this affect the UK as well as they aren’t in the European Union anymore?
Most likely not, UK does not use EU laws anymore.
What are some popular examples that would be affected by this?
my own reddit viewer https://rdx.overdevs.com
If I'm understanding right, I believe Xbox Cloud Gaming and Geforce Now have used this. They get access to better video APIs by running as a home screen webapp, and aren't at risk of popping the address bar from touch confusion.
Voyager, a client for Lemmy, also installs as a webapp. Similarly, it doesn't show the address bar when you scroll up and down.
Mind you Voyager has a wrapped iOS app already. Posting from it right now.
Popular? None.
But we don't only have to build an environment that allows the doing of popular things. We also need to maintain a society in which unpopular or unusual things can be done. The doing of unpopular or unusual things is itself popular.
Here's a list of Non-Open Source web apps: https://www.neoito.com/blog/best-progressive-web-apps/
Here's a list of Open Source web apps: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_free_and_open-source_web_applications
The barrier of entry for these apps are just so low. You don't have to download anything for them to work and (for now) they're crossplatform.
If you haven't yet, you might want to try voyager on your lemmy instance: https://vger.app/
Cryptee is one that comes to mind.
My guess is that the majority doesn't know what web apps are. Most people I know either have an app for that or consider a function not worthwhile or necessary.
Nah. They are just locking down a pathway for using whatever you want on a device you purchased.
An update from Apple. Apple actually reversed that decision. Finally. Tested on latest stable version of iOS 17.4 and it works. (from https://developer.apple.com/support/dma-and-apps-in-the-eu/#dev-qa ):
Why don’t users in the EU have access to Home Screen web apps?
UPDATE: Previously, Apple announced plans to remove the Home Screen web apps capability in the EU as part of our efforts to comply with the DMA. The need to remove the capability was informed by the complex security and privacy concerns associated with web apps to support alternative browser engines that would require building a new integration architecture that does not currently exist in iOS.
We have received requests to continue to offer support for Home Screen web apps in iOS, therefore we will continue to offer the existing Home Screen web apps capability in the EU. This support means Home Screen web apps continue to be built directly on WebKit and its security architecture, and align with the security and privacy model for native apps on iOS.
Developers and users who may have been impacted by the removal of Home Screen web apps in the beta release of iOS in the EU can expect the return of the existing functionality for Home Screen web apps with the availability of iOS 17.4 in early March.
Finally, some good news.
It's all about brand and glam. Majority of people that need validation from others "need" to have an iPhone.
Don't forget the walled garden. Apple does have a reputation they worked hard to achieve, and people who don't know better feel compelled to try, but than, switching to Android becomes a very difficult task
