196 @lemmy.blahaj.zone spujb @lemmy.cafe 6 mo. ago

nuanceposting rule

seen this post elsewhere? click for explanation

This post got banned from !memes@lemmy.world for reason “Troll Posting” which is Very Disrespectful in my opinion. 😕

I mean this meme with full respect and love to my fellow community members and I was proud of the discussion and support it was creating.

EDIT: POST RESTORED YAY. (Thank you to the mods it turned out to be a misunderstanding.)

Important clarification/FAQ

I am not calling to coddle or excuse the behavior of bigoted men in any way!

I am calling to be kind and understanding to young men (often ages 10-20) who are very manipulable and succeptible to the massive anti feminist propaganda machine. Hope this clarifies that very important distinction. :)

Very good comments that express key points:

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It's not on women to soften their complaints of rape and harassment to try to prevent men from becoming incels and Nazis.

For Fucks Sake

Men can deal with the very mild discomfort of being occasionally reminded women have to always be vigilant.
- For fucks sake maybe part of the problem is men are ALWAYS told to shut up and that their problems dont matter as much as literally any other population. I initially responded to the meme with annoyance, but understanding, but the constant creep of aggression that it keeps coming back with has started to trigger my own baggage.
  
  Do you realise how pathetic you sound? Women are told to shut their mouth and keep their opinions to themselves all the fucking time. It’s time for men like you to realise that sometimes yeah you should shut up and yeah your opinion is less important than the lived experience of women when it comes down to sexism and SA. Educate yourself please before you embarrass yourself even more.
  
  Invisible women is a great book to start. Very easy to read and full of interesting statistics.
  
  Do you realise how pathetic you sound? Women are told to shut their mouth and keep their opinions to themselves all the fucking time.
  
  Yikes.
  
  spoiler
  
  ,
  
  Oh so it's fine when it happens the other way, gotta perpetuate the anger somehow!
  
  Maybe everyone should be allowed a voice and nobody should be told to shut up?
  
  I don’t care what a man has to say on the matter of how safe or unsafe women feel.
  
  spoiler
  
  ,
  
  Women are told to shut their mouth and keep their opinions to themselves all the fucking time.
  
  I think right about now would be a good time to check your privilege. People overall are told that all the time, yet somehow women still by and large have shoulders to cry on, places to complain where they're heard. Wait, no, crying on shoulders, complaining, again, that would be pathetic for men never mind.
  
  spoiler
  
  ,
  
  I mean yes I could have used the term "toxic masculinity" but men not steeped deeply in feminist theory tend to react badly to it, and self-identified feminists (usually also not quite firm in theory) getting called out for engaging in it tend to react even worse. And I already used quite a lot of budget on the privilege check, so, yeah, better avoid that one.
  
  Oh your edit.
  
  Have you ever asked yourself why people only bring up male victims when we are talking about female victims?
  
  Because the overall narrative is women are weak and in need of protection while men are not, and if they are, it's because they are a) toxic male view losers b) toxic female view in some way inherently broken because how can you fail as a man in a world made for men.
  
  Looking at the difference between the toxic perspectives: At least the male one doesn't lend itself to denying the very existence of men with issues. On the toxic female side you get things like radfems shutting down domestic violence centres for men as it clashes with their idea that men are inherently never victims. Reality, it seems, has a compassionate bias so it has to be denied.
  
  spoiler
  
  sdfsaf
  
  (btw did you see my edit to your edit)
  
  Advocating for women generally is advocacy for men as well.
  
  In theory, yes. In practice you get self-avowed feminists reinforcing the patriarchy, hence why I did the privilege checking.
  
  spoiler
  
  sdfsaf
  
  I replied to that purported bogeyman directly. Called out what you correctly identified as toxic masculinity.
  
  Facts don’t care about your feelings bro
  
  91% of SA victims are women, 99% of perpetrators are men;
  
  women in the EU work 70 hours per week on average vs men who work 63 hour per week (this includes paid and unpaid work, women do about 3 times as much unpaid work as men)
  
  number of women in the US who face workplace discrimination is 3 times higher than men
  
  women politicians in the US face 3.4 times as much threats and harassment than men
  
  car seats are only tested on male dummies resulting in women being 73% more likely to get seriously injured by a car crash
  
  most medicines are only tested on male animals and or humans, resulting in lower efficacy among women and causing medicines that would be beneficial to women to go undiscovered
  
  Once again I recommend reading the book invisible women for more interesting statistics, and an analysis on gender specific data. It turns out that gender specific data is very hard to come by, making a lot of potential other gender gaps undiscovered. Women are much more likely than men to be victims of gender specific data gaps because women were not allowed to work for a long time and women still make up only a small fraction of executives making many women specific problems to stay undiscovered.
  
  I now could start a big list starting with men being four times more likely to commit suicide than women. But I won't, because I assume you're aware of all those gendered inequalities affecting men just as I was aware of every single one of the bullet points you mentioned.
  
  Women have always been the primary victims of war. Women lose their husbands, their fathers, their sons in combat.
  
  Hillary Clinton, 1998
  
  spoiler
  
  sdfsaf
  
  We weren't talking about workplace discrimination, either. Or car seats. Or medicine. Or work hours. Those are real issues brought up in addition which I readily acknowledged and made no attempt at dismissing, nor did I spent more breath on a single male issue than any single one of the female issues got.
  
  We were talking about people's experiences and pain getting silenced, and how none of it should get ignored. I suggest making that "if" into a "when" and lead by example.
  
  spoiler
  
  sdfsaf
  
  This entire post is a reaction to a post about how unsafe women feel.
  
  This entire post is about nuance in discussing that reaction. I quote from OP's image:
  
  The disenfranchisement and antagonization of young men leading to alt-right extremism is a real problem that can be addressed by being thoughtful of what methods of rhetoric are employed.
  
  By your logic, I should say “stop talking about men committing suicide when trans people commit suicide at a higher rate.“ Does that seem right to you? I sure hope not.
  
  First off, I never said that any of the issues should not be talked about, I said that none should get ignored.
  
  Then, that's actually an interesting intersection. Do you happen to have any data on whether the same disparity is present or not in trans folks, ideally distinguishing between pre- and post-transition?
  
  My off the cuff hypothesis would be low to no statistical significance pre-transition as transphobia and general psychological turmoil is an overwhelming factor, and a definitely significant but lower disparity post-transition on account of selection bias towards resiliency as well as good self-knowledge and self-actualisation being a protecting factor.
  
  spoiler
  
  sdfsaf
  
  It’s time for men like you to realise that
  
  Why are you talking to a 15 year old like that?
  
  It's not a competition. Let's all be better
  
  Hey! I am here to tell you don’t shut up. ❤️
  
  I am listening to and validating your stories. I don’t appreciate the other commenters jumping down your throat in this context.
  
  There are a lot of emotions running high on all sides. What is needed is a deep breath and open mindedness but that is hard under a post that is already a reaction to a reaction.
  
  If you haven’t already, check out !mensliberation@lemmy.ca, seen some positive stuff over there and I think you could find mutual value :)
  
  I literally just want to say thank you. I've been trying to get across something similar, and I'm sure we'd disagree on a few issues. But your compassion and understanding of all points of view is genuinely inspiring
  
  💖
  
  +55 -2
  
  Hey! I am here to tell you don’t shut up. ❤️
  
  Removed by mod
  
  SMH
  
  It was a divisive comment that was certainly fueled by already-high emotions, the mods may have just done what was necessary to keep toxicity and flaming at bay.
  
  I ask you to please not add fuel to the fire—nobody gains anything from the doubling down on hurt feelings. Listen to each other instead of trying to one-up.
  
  I know, the only winning move is not to play. And the mods had limited options
  
  Shoutout to the mods for putting up with the garbage behavior my post shuffled up. 🙏
  
  And thank you friend for doing your part not to get me banned again :)
  
  It's not personal. You aren't just a man, right?
  
  spoiler
  
  ,
  
  Men don't run the world, oligarchs run the world
  
  The homeless men you walk past on your way to work do not run the world
  
  spoiler
  
  ,
  
  You’re forgetting the “male” part of oligarchs.
  
  Is it forgetting or, looking at the percentages, considering it irrelevant to the overall problems the system has?
  
  How large a percentage of men are oligarchs, and how large a percentage of oligarchs are women? Which one is, in <randomliberalcounttry>, the larger number? Would oligarchy be any better if all oligarchs were women? Now as an anarchist I might be biassed here but given that oligarchy is a system of rule I'd say it's the actual problem, not the gender distribution that's a mere nuance. I don't care whether we're all ruled by left-handed people, or ones with heterochromatic eyes, their geno- or phenotype doesn't matter what matters is that they are in power. For more education, consult your friendly neighbourhood anarcho-feminist.
  
  spoiler
  
  ,
  
  Oh not just "at this point" I've been busy figuring out what sticks with people vs. what doesn't for at least two decades now. Points that, when prodded, don't cause resistance, where some leverage can be applied that then may or may not avalanche into reevaluation of other topics which would be foolhardy to address directly. Dancing around the neuroses of the collective to enact my grand political vision of *checks notes* universal psychological health.
  
  That all said yes of course we also have issues with gender roles. It's just that in terms of who sits at the big power levers that's not terribly relevant any more, it's not 1850 any more the dam has long since been breached and as women can inherit fortunes nowadays the gender distribution of oligarchs is bound to level out soon enough.
  
  spoiler
  
  sdfsaf
  
  I'm perfectly consistent in my position, I simply chose to not engage where people's underwear is twisted because a shouting match has never changed anyone's mind.
  
  spoiler
  
  sdfsaf
  
  Yes, totally agree, we should all just stick to our initial assumptions and then rationalize them afterwards
  
  spoiler
  
  sdfsaf
  
  None of that has anything to do with the conversation. You're only justifying the fact that you're agreeing that men don't get to have problems and should just shut up
  
  spoiler
  
  sdfsaf
- absolutely agree ❤️
  
  which is why i am very thankful for those who put in patience and effort into encouraging young men to see their shortcomings ~ outside the context of women voicing their experiences ~ in order to achieve a more equitable future for all
  
  spoiler
  
  ,
  
  … no. thats what nuance is. i agree both with the text of my meme and with this commenter. holding two truths at once that, from a broad and shortsighted perspective, might seem contradictory but are not. the two are not mutually exclusive just because the differences are subtle.
  
  nuance: the whole point of this post. internalize that please 😭
  
  edit: and stop telling me what I am asking women and advocates to do. that is abusive behavior. very not cool, especially in this context. :(
  
  Thank you, it's hard to fight for nuance in such a polarised world, but I appreciate your tenacity.
  
  We can all be winners if we just talk
  
  This edit misrepresents what I am saying and is a deliberate attempt to get your dig in without replying to me directly so others can see/hopefully I don’t.
  
  spoiler
  
  ,
  
  You obviously don't understand the meme and, at least from where I stand, are part of the problem.
  
  spoiler
  
  sdfsaf
- Stopping the progressive downfall of society is on all of society, period. What's the end game of alienating half the race?
  
  You're right about one thing. Women can't make men not rape, and it doesn't really fall to them. Does it fall to the good guys, though? The ones who already don't rape and stand up to their peers who have toxic ideas? And, really, are you reaching anyone who needs to hear it with rhetoric like this?
  
  Changing society is a game everyone has to be on board with. Everyone makes up society, so you can't just tell half of them they're not fit and expect it just to work out. Sure, not all men, but quite frankly I'm tired of having to be "one of the good ones". We already decided labeling someone one of the good ones wasn't right with black people, we really need to have that fight again?
  
  Does it fall to the good guys, though? The ones who already don’t rape and stand up to their peers who have toxic ideas?
  
  Yes, precisely. If the majority of men don't change the culture by standing up for women and against low-key misogyny that's everywhere then nothing will change and they aren't really "good guys".
  
  And, really, are you reaching anyone who needs to hear it with rhetoric like this?
  
  Dunno. But there's certainly a LOT of misogynists on Lemmy and I'm going to keep pushing back against them. They probably think they're feminists, too. Quoting bear statistics, saying "not all men", equivocating gender and race relations, telling women to "tone down" their complains so they don't alienate rapists and potential rapists.
  
  Sure, not all men, but quite frankly I’m tired of having to be “one of the good ones”.
  
  Lol, don't fret. With an attitude like that, you aren't.
  
  black people
  
  We aren't talking about race, honey. If they think you can just swap labels you REALLY don't understand what's going on. No surprise.
  
  Not gonna bother with the nuance-missing ad hom attacks. Just this one.
  
  We aren't talking about race, honey. If they think you can just swap labels you REALLY don't understand what's going on. No surprise.
  
  If you can't see that it is 100% an equivalent situation, you have no idea why people are actually upset and just want to join the noise.
  
  Also, don't call me honey. It's really degrading, id expect better from someone like you.
  
  Also, don't call me honey. It's really degrading, id expect better from someone like you.
  
  Whoosh
  
  Oh no, I got your intent. Believe me.
- And your statement is so pointlessly gendered it qualifies as transphobic.
  
  Do tell how I am being transphobic. I did not speak of sex nor cis/trans distinctions. And binary trans people (cannot speak to nonbinary) have experience as both genders.
  
  Also how is this pointless? The entire discussion revolves around the Patriarchy: a social system that gives dominance to men. Gender is at the heart of it. Trying to apply this discussion to other fields falls short because it is discussing the nuances of gender politics and the Patriarchy in particular. Which is why trying to overlay this discussion onto race or nationality doesn't make sense (referring to other common arguments, not this thread in particular).
  
  spoiler
  
  ,
  
  Thanks. I'm not sure what it is but any talk of men-women gender privilege gets a LOT of flak from pro-men posters on Lemmy. Unsure if it's instance-based or just general userbase outside LGBT+ instances. I've blocked a few bad ones but I see the flak from across a wide array of instances.
  
  I try to push back hard against disingenuous arguments to try to clue people in. I've tried what this thread suggests, and still do try to use logic and honest discussion but when I see the same dumb argument 5 times in a thread, I lose patience.
  
  Calling transphobia in such a disingenuous way is pretty gross. There is nothing wrong with your comment, as trans man I stand fully behind it. Bigots try to divide feminists and trans people often in similar ways but we won’t let them ❤️

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