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But I will not have voted for one of them. But you will have and the blood will be on your hands.
You have an abysmally stupid sense of morality.
I think some of these people have to be trolls. We're basically in the trolley problem where the trolley is headed for 100,000 people, and if you pull the lever it will only kill 1. You can't abstain from pulling the lever and act like you're completely innocent of the deaths of the masses.
the trolley problem tests you ethical framework, it does not have a prescribed solution. your answer to it helps you understand your own approach. deontologists never pull the lever.
That’s an awful lot of trolls.
How is being against a genocide immoral?
If your morality prioritizes staunch adherence to standards over harm reduction, you have a stupid sense of morality.
It’s the kind of morality where someone would rather let a child die than push them out of the way of a speeding car, simply because pushing them would harm them.
Your morality should lead you to making decisions that result in the least harm. Look at it this way: if all of the people who voted third party instead of Hillary because Hillary wasn’t [insert moral standard here] enough had sucked it up and voted for Hillary, access to abortion would still be legal nationwide. (This assumes enough people to get her elected voted third party over moral objections.)
Trump is the worst president in my life time, by a huge margin, and he’s even more in favor of genocide than Biden, demonstrably. So if your sense of morality causes you to help put him in charge of our country again, in my mind, you’re a fucking moron.
Rebellion? I don't like hearing such a word from you," Ivan said with feeling. "One cannot live by rebellion, and I want to live. Tell me straight out, I call on you--answer me: imagine that you yourself are building the edifice of human destiny with the object of making people happy in the finale, of giving them peace and rest at last, but for that you must inevitably and unavoidably torture just one tiny creature, that same child who was beating her chest with her little fist, and raise your edifice on the foundation of her unrequited tears--would you agree to be the architect on such conditions? Tell me the truth."
"No, I would not agree," Alyosha said softly.
"And can you admit the idea that the people for whom you are building would agree to accept their happiness on the unjustified blood of a tortured child, and having accepted it, to remain forever happy?"
"No, I cannot admit it.Fyodor Dostoyevsky — The Brothers Karamazov
Ok cool. Your choice is between genocide, and genocide but worse. You can proclaim how righteous and moral you are that all the pain everyone around you is feeling is not your fault, because you merely threw your vote away, but that won’t change the outcome, and it won’t make you anything but a moron.
It’s my fault Biden won’t declare his intentions to stop the genocide. I’m to blame everybody. My vote has doomed us all. The horror.
“And can you admit the idea that the people for whom you are building would agree to accept their happiness on the unjustified blood of a tortured child, and having accepted it, to remain forever happy?”
"No, I cannot admit it."
Dostoevsky never met American liberals lol.
voting isn't harm reduction
I’m not talking about drug harm reduction. I’m talking about the reduction of harm. Put another way, aiming to reduce the amount of harm your actions lead to.
Put another way, aiming to reduce the amount of harm your actions lead to.
well the good news is you can vote for anyone you actually want to take office, since only votes for bad people cause them to be elected.
That’s a nice platitude, but there are only two outcomes, no matter how much you might wish there was a third. Your options are to help, abstain, or hurt. Abstaining means you’d rather not help, so again, in my mind, you’re a moron.
Third party candidates are only viable when one of the major parties collapses, and the major parties only collapse when they consistently lose. So, if you actually want a viable third party, you should vote for the major party you dislike the least. Otherwise, you’re just perpetuating both.
voting for biden helps corporations and the war machine. it doesn't help stop fascism.
Trump is literally a fascist. A vote for Biden is a vote against fascism. You’ve got to be a troll.
biden is a fascist. calling me names doesn't change what biden has enabled for the last 50 years.
That’s a nice platitude
no, it's a fact
you should vote for the major party you dislike the least.
i don't need to choose either of them. neither is acceptable.
I've asked folks who aren't voting for Biden what they think the odds of their vote reducing genocide in the real world is, and all I've gotten is crickets.
Given that there doesn't seem to be much confidence there, the real world results are likely trump or biden.
Trump has folks in his party alluding to nukes when saying Palestine has to be ended quickly, even trump himself has stated that Israel has to end the war quickly. Therefore I suggest that Trump will result in far more lives lost than Biden.
Folks on Lemmy are typically left-leaning.
This means that a Lemmy user voting third party could've been a vote for Biden, which in a binary choice results in less lives lost. Yes, I know, Biden centrist, etc etc, but he's to the left of the absolute insanity that is the republican party.
However instead some folks value a clean conscience over real world results, and vote third party/abstain. If these votes would've otherwise gone to Biden, then they have made a trump presidency more likely, which has the real world effect of resulting in more lives lost.
I'm fine with people voting with their conscience, but I just want folks to acknowledge whether or not their vote makes a trump presidency (therefore more genocide) more likely. Most people just seem to think "I'm not voting for genocide so my hands are clean and I'm good!" and stick their head in the sand.
So, you’re okay with not having a clean conscience? Or, other voters should be okay with not having a clear conscience? If Biden winning is more important to you than having a clean conscience. Vote for him. But don’t pressure people that choose to have a clear conscience.
Unless thought police is on your bucket list.
From my perspective, they are implying that your belief that voting third party or abstaining gives you a clear conscience makes you a self-centered, arrogant fool. Because the result of your action (or inaction) will increase the likelihood of the more bad thing happening.
To me, that's not a clear conscience. That's ignorance. That's explicitly choosing to ignore the consequences of your (in)action. That's short-sightedness to the degree that someone would expect of a preschooler. One with behavioral problems.
That’s a lot of words to say you are okay with genocide. I’m not gonna castigate voters for voting against a candidate that enables it. Maybe I’ll change my mind once I get to middle school. It depends on how long recess is.
I did not say I'm okay with genocide.
Our choices this election are genocide with a side of an untoppped baked potato, or genocide with a side of radioactive flaming diarrhea.
There is no third option. The third option is that the waiter brings you one of the two and you have to accept it.
At least one way, we get a bland potato. It sucks, but that's the way this restaurant is run. We can't just get up and go to another restaurant. But, maybe if we can just find it to ignore the genocide (which, by the way, the chef is really limited in what they can do without the support of the rôtisseur, especially when he gets a couple line cooks to side with him), we might be able to have no genocide next time we come back. Otherwise, we're all gonna get sick being close to all the radioactive diarrhea and the whole place is gonna get shut down.
I only eat happy meals.
You're implying that asking people what they think the real world results of their choices are is being the thought police? That seems a little... diluted.
Then you shouldn’t care how people vote.
I'm not getting how you got to that conclusion, can you flesh it out a little more?
If you’re okay with people voting their conscience, then you can’t be upset when they do that. If you are upset when they don’t vote your way, that’s the policing of thought.
I'm fine with people voting with their conscience, but I just want folks to acknowledge whether or not their vote makes a trump presidency (therefore more genocide) more likely. Most people just seem to think "I'm not voting for genocide so my hands are clean and I'm good!" and stick their head in the sand.
I'm not upset if they do, nor do I expect them to vote my way. I just want to encourage them to discuss the real world effects of their choice. I just want to make sure they're internally consistent in their reasoning. For example, another commentor said they've voted for third party since 2008, and my response was for them to simply carry on doing so.
You can label discourse as "thought policing", but then that casts an extremely wide net that cheapens the term as used by Orwell.
People who are choosing not to vote for Biden are doing so because of a genocide that is happening NOW. You want to question them on contingent hypothetical real world results of a Trump presidency that may, or may not, happen in the FUTURE.
You’re trying to scare voters by telling them a dragon 🐉 is outside, when a venomous hydra is already in the room with them.
You’re concern trolling and “just asking questions,” it reeks of desperation.
a Lemmy user voting third party could’ve been a vote for Biden,
if he wanted to earn it
What'd he have to do to earn it? It's hard to think about Lemmy users as a whole, what about you in particular?
adopt cornel west's platform. or claudia de la cruz'. or jill stein's.
Ah, it sounds like you'd typically vote third party to begin with.
If that's the case, then your vote was never going to go to Biden to begin with, so all of the above doesn't really apply.
i haven't voted for a democrat for president since 2008, but it's not as though they don't know how to earn it. they don't want it.
And that is fair.
I should've been more explicit - what I posted is focused on folks who are single issue voting here.
EDIT: If Palestine is the only thing someone cares about, voting third party is likely actually hurting their cause. However you are choosing who to vote for based on many additional issues, which is why this doesn't really apply to you.
Voting third party right now also just perpetuates both parties. There are enough people in this country to elect anyone from the major parties, so a third party can’t win unless one of those parties collapses. The only way a party collapses is when it consistently loses elections.
The republicans won’t consistently lose elections as long as progressives don’t vote for democrats, so both parties will continue on. The majority of the people in this country are left of center, so the only way republicans win is by suppressing votes, and one of the ways they do that is by propping up progressive third party candidates.
If we truly want a progressive party, making sure republicans never win elections is the way to do it. Then either the Democratic Party will shift left and republicans will regroup under a new less extreme conservative party, or the Democratic Party will shift right as it absorbs all the republicans and a new progressive left party will rise. Both ways result in a more progressive set of major parties.
If you truly oppose genocide. You should be plotting a coup against the US executive branch.
We don’t know they aren’t.
But then if Trump wins because you didn’t vote for either, then you’re ok with Genocide+ rather than Genocide light. Meaning you have to vote for the lesser of the two evils if no matter what you do the majority are voting for the only two who are likely to win.
You’re either incredibly stupid, a troll, or are being obstinate on purpose.
Small problem. A person who is against genocide would not be okay with a genocide under Trump either, so why should they be okay with a genocide under Biden?
Did you even read anything I wrote.
The outcome of the election is going to be Trump or Biden. NOBODY ELSE IS GOING TO WIN.
So given that you have to choose the person less likely to escalate the situation, the saner one of the two.
I’m not saying it’s good I think it’s fucking abhorrent, but there is no choice.
To be abundantly clear about my stance on Palestine. I am out every weekend protesting in solidarity with Palestine. I am spreading awareness of the issue wherever I can and I am taking direct action against the companies that support the genocide.
Let me ask you this. What do you think is going to happen if you don’t vote?
If a genocide is going to occur regardless of the vote, then the vote doesn’t matter.
Let me ask you this. What do you think is going to happen if you don’t vote?
In regards to what? The genocide? Project 2025? Healthcare?
If people want to vote for Joe Biden to preserve LGBT and minority rights, that’s their choice. If someone wants to not vote for Biden because he is aiding in a genocide, that’s their choice.
It’s egotistical to think that my priorities are more important than others.
If a genocide is going to occur regardless of the vote, then the vote doesn’t matter.
Do you think that more people in Palestine will suffer if trump is elected?
Hypothetically, I think there would be no difference than what is occurring now. The rhetoric from his administration would be more belligerent though. If you take the genocide out of the equation, Biden is clearly the better choice. Unfortunately, it is part of the equation.
Ah, see that's the assumption where you differ from most other folks in this thread.
The base assumption made by others, backed by trump encouraging a fast victory for Israel , as well as other GOP politicians with similar calls are signs that trump would press on the accelerator hard.
His commitment to Israel is in stark contrast to how he's treated other longtime American allies.
Lastly, let's not forget his infamous Muslim travel ban.
Trump and the other Republicans will say a lot, but they aren’t going to act any different than what Biden and Blinken are already doing with Palestine. The only difference is the symbolic language the Democrats use to assuage their voters. What are they going to do, send more arms and money faster?
Trump and the other Republicans will say a lot, but they aren’t going to act any different than what Biden and Blinken are already doing with Palestine
Muslim travel ban, Golan heights, and Jerusalem recognition + US embassy adoption there suggests that there are real world acts that the administration would do differently to me, what do you think?
What are they going to do, send more arms and money faster?
Precisely, afaik he doesn't give a shit about the people of Palestine, he's more worried about Israels bad PR and wants them to end it fast.
EDIT: just to check, did you read the JNS article? It's pretty bad, and he spells out exactly what he wants to do... A small excerpt is below.
“On day one, we’ll restore our travel ban. We had a travel ban because we didn’t want people coming into our country who really loved the idea of blowing our country up,” he said. He called the ban an “amazing success.”
“We didn’t have one incident in four years, because we kept bad people out of our country,” he claimed.
“I’ll also be implementing strong ideological screenings for all immigrants coming in,” he said. “If you hate America, if you want to abolish Israel, if you sympathize with jihadists, then we don’t want you in our country and you’re not going to be getting into our country.”
Trump also said he would cancel student visas of Hamas sympathizers.
“The college campuses are being taken over, and all of the resident aliens who joined in the pro-jihadist protests this month, nobody’s seen anything like it,” he said. “Come 2025, we will find you, and we will deport you.”
...
As president, Trump would “put every single university and college president on notice,” he said. “The American taxpayer will not subsidize the creation of terrorist sympathizers on American soil.”
That last bit is actual government thought policing.
Dude people ain’t voting for Biden for any reason. They’re voting against the lunatic that tried to incite an insurrection. The dude that has the mentality of a child.
That’s it. Trump is a sociopath and people don’t want him in charge of nuclear weapons.
As to the rest of your comment. Yes you can do what you want but alls people are saying is Trump would far worse in every regard and not voting against him is basically saying your cool with that.
Does that make sense? I don’t mean that in a condescending way, I’m really wanting to know if you understand my point of view and the consensus of this thread. And the majority of people.
If you’re not voting Biden who are you voting for?
If you want to me to say that I’m voting for Biden, I will. The question everyone should be asking themselves is why do they need that validation. Is it only okay to vote for Biden if everyone else does? If I change my mind in the next six months, and decide to vote for Cornel West or Jill Stein, is it not my choice? The people that have decided to not vote for Biden because of the genocide aren’t gonna be persuaded by randos pressuring them on the internet. It’s not their fault he is helping Israel do a genocide.
I literally said in my last comment it is your choice do what you want.
I’ve also covered, ad-nauseam, that the only person getting elected is a genocide supporting one and one of those is less dangerous than the other.
How many times do you want to ask the same questions to get the same answer.
I DONT SUPPORT GENOCIDE. I DO SUPPORT PALESTINE. ISRAEL IS AN APARTHEID STATE. WE THE PEOPLE ARE POWERLESS TO STOP IT. BIDEN OR TRUMP WILL WIN. BIDEN IS LESS FUCKING INSANE THAN TRUMP. BIDEN IS A GENOCIDE SUPPORTER.
What more do you want me to say.
I guess what hasn’t been said is you could get
Genocide light? Seriously?!? If the other guy is stupid, you are stupid+
There is no democracy if you are supporting genocide. There is no election worth voting on if the outcome is same fucking fascist, just with different colored flags. And don’t give me the lie how you’re gonna do something about a ‘genocide light’ if your guy is elected. Fuck off
This whole country needs to stop sucking Kissinger’s dick and change this bloodthirsty, greedy fascist system.
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Or republican politicans calling to end Palestine "as if" we nuked it.
Ask the people in Gaza what they think about "Roe got overturned".
After all said and nothing done, we are paying for those bullets that murder their children by accepting and even promoting a system that gives us braindead mouthpieces for weapon manufacturers to vote for.
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November is quite cold where I’m at, we like to go hiking or skiing. Or staying in and watching movies. A nice dinner with friends? I hope I gave you at least one good idea what to do in November.
But you can go out and vote for a sociopath and genocide denier or for a racist rapist and when those clowns start killing and bombing some other people somewhere on the globe, you can just blame the Chinese or Icelanders for making you vote for a lesser evil…
Life’s good either way…
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Vote for whomever you want, or not vote. Make your own decision, stop letting others make the decision for you.
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Why do you think I’m upset that you are voting for Biden? You should vote for whomever you want. I’m voting for genocide Joe and I understand the implications of that. What I won’t do is plead with others to do the same. It is their choice, not mine. I understand why someone would vote for Biden. But , I also understand others have different priorities and material interests. Forcing, or shaming others to vote your choice is not democratic… it’s authoritarian. And isn’t that what we wish to prevent?
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I’m an American, I’ve been drowning in piss my whole life. You want me to hate you for voting for Biden, even though he is helping a genocide. I won’t, because I understand you have your reasons. Or you want me to hate others because they won’t vote for Biden, because he’s helping a genocide. I’m not gonna do that either, because I support their cause.
Your anger is better directed at the institutions that allowed us to arrive at this juncture.
So.... What do you think are the odds that your third party vote improves the situation in Palestine?
If your third party vote makes it more likely that Trump wins and results in more bloodshed, that is a choice you contributed to, and blood is still on your hands.
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The argument for voting against left-wing or socialist candidates on the grounds that they can’t win and are therefore helping the right wing into power has, of course, been a time-worn argument in the United States against bucking the two-party system. Engels, in an 1893 letter to an American colleague, pointed out that in the United States, the formation of a workers’ party is hindered by the "Constitution…which makes it appear as though every vote were lost that is cast for a candidate not put up by one of the two governing parties." isreview
virtue-signalling : the act or practice of conspicuously displaying one's awareness of and attentiveness to political issues, matters of social and racial justice, etc., especially instead of taking effective action
If you don't vote against fascism, you allowed fascism.
Cool, I'll give you a pass on the genocide, but you will still be as responsible as anyone who voted for Trump for all the other terrible things he said he will do that you are doing nothing to prevent.
Not voting is a vote for Trump.
That’s not logical. So, if my choices are pizza or nuggies, and I choose neither. Then I chose nuggies? Make it make sense.
I may be intermittent fasting to lose weight, or rejecting imperialist capitalism.
A few things; Republicans haven't won the popular vote in over 20 years, a rural (republican) vote is objectively worth more than most democrat votes
How many republicans do you think are not voting? Probably much fewer than leftists (democrat votes)
You ARE getting Pizza or Nuggies, you can vote for either, but you are still getting Nuggies or Pizza for dinner, in this case Nuggies is more likely, because, as mentioned before, people voting for Nuggies typically have a vote that's worth more than those who usually vote for Pizza
This is a make-or-break moment – we must pressure the Democrats to change their position on Gaza before the elections in November. While we should all be doing absolutely everything we can to stop the genocide, the bare minimum right now is demanding that a presidential hopeful, in need of our votes, commits to ending US funds to Israel. It is not that complicated. source
What do you think not voting will change about Gaza? Nothing.
There are other issues to be voting about, as much as I would love to vote for someone who wants to end the genocide, I'll at least vote for someone who isn't trying to take away medicare from tens of millions of people with no plan to replace it, or someone who's for an unrealized gains tax, or someone who wants to cap medical prices, or restore women's rights.
It’s interesting that people assume that someone is not voting, or voting for third parties, just because they’re critical of Harris.
The article you linked is literally about not voting.
It’s about one person choosing not to vote for Harris.
That doesn't change literally anything. You think by not voting you'll be helping end the genocide? That's so fucking ludicrous, one of the two are getting elected, the fucking privilege you must have to not care about voting in this election is audacious.
A tribe holds a vote to either cross a bridge to side A or stay on side B. Staying on side A means you won't have much food. Going to side B means you still won't have much food, but also most of the food is poisonous.
Part of the tribe (Group C) says "I don't want to starve, I refuse to vote in a way that accepts malnourishment as a solution!" Group C also opposes eating poisonous food. This partial group votes to try and find a better source of food (option C).
48% of people vote A. 49% of people vote B. 3% of people vote C.
Surprise, surprise, Group C had 0 impact on the starving situation AND helped facilitate the eating of poisonous food.
Seems like more from the other Groups should have voted with C, or C shouldn’t have been given the option to find a better source for food.
I agree with you. If we could get the entirety of the democratic party to vote green/left, that would be super helpful. We both know that's not happening in America because of the broken electoral and political system. If we could suppress option C, we wouldn't be having this conversation at all, but there would surely be other complaints to be had regarding that matter.
In the end, the Group C votes are equivalent to not voting, which translates to having 0 impact on the outcome of vote. This exemplifies complicity with either option A or B.
Group C is not complicit for being honest.
Sorry, you're right. My story doesn't quite match the election dynamic. In the hypothetical, Group C should be extremely aware that they cannot win the popular vote, since most tribe members are either unaware of or have no faith in option C.
In which case, yes, continuing to vote for option C is complicity with outcome A or B.
Definition of complicit denotes otherwise. If making the right choice is unpopular, that doesn’t make you complicit with another choice. You’re conflating the two choices. Why is it Group C’s fault the other groups can’t get their shit together. Stop bullying people to vote the way you want. It makes you look weak.