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Do you think maybe this is something beyond just trying to get people to vote for Trump? Maybe people just really hate genocide and don't like the idea of voting or supporting someone who is okay with it?
Think maybe there are third party options?
Do you think maybe the electoral college and the stupid voting situation in this country has made it so many people have an opportunity to vote third party while their state still goes to Biden??
Listen all I'm trying to say is people have a ton of different reasons to call out Joe for his support of genocide. You immediately defending it makes you and the things you stand for look bad because you're defending genocide. Just saying
I'm defending genocide by pointing out Republicans will accelerate the genocide if they win by people deciding not to vote?
Yes.
If anytime someone brings up how the current political establishment are aiding and abetting genocide and that's a bad thing and you immediately start defending them. You are defending genocide. 🤷
That's why I asked who said anything about voting for Trump. I'd shoot myself in the head before I did that. You know when I'm not going to do pretend like genocide Joe's not a f****** genocide enabler. Cuz I don't defend genocide or people who help commit them. You should try it real easy.
Read what I'm saying, this kind of messaging not about convincing people to vote for trump, it's about convincing people not to vote at all. Which always helps Republicans, and if they win, will 1000% accelerate the ongoing genocide. Doing nothing lets evil men get away with anything. And right now, for me, it's about damage minimization and maintaining pressure to reverse the policy.
So no I'm not endorsing genocide by saying that trump getting into office will absolutely make the situation worse.
I hear you. I'm going to try to be clearer
What I'm trying to point out to you is that you and many other people I see here as soon as anyone points out that the Democrats are backing a genocide and something needs to be done about it. Act like those people, including myself are supporting Trump or other Republicans.
All I'm trying to say to you is there are other strategies available and other reasons someone would not want to vote for Biden. Even in a way you might deem safe.
As soon as a criticism of Biden is made and there is a suggestion that something can be done about it, It is shot down by saying Trump would do it worse. This sentiment is used to stop people who want to stop the genocide. That's why I'm calling it defending genocide.
We all know Trump would do it worse. Do not vote for Trump. Or any Republican they all suck. The thing I'm trying to get through is most of the Democrats suck too. If we continue to vote for Biden, another Dems, we're going to get the same shit.
By instantly countering with someone who wants to do better by saying well, you're actually going to do worse. You were defending the status quo and part of the status quo is genocide.
Do you get what I'm saying?
I also see where you're coming from. And I do not want to support a genocide, but strictly in terms of electoral politics, and putting all other possible forms of civic engagement aside, we should not be dissuaded people from voting for the least shitty viable option.
People have been trying to make voting third party a thing for decades, and the last time a major political party fell was when the Progressive Republicans took to the nation stage in the mid 1800s and replaced the Whig party when the Northern Whigs and Southern Whigs split over the issue of slavery.
Abstaining from voting does not absolve you of the decisions of our government because whether you voted or not, you still pay taxes that are used to send bombs to a genocidal nation.
I do not like the current genocide, but I have no illusions that abstaining from voting is a good idea and there is no way that just rolling over and letting trump win will do anything other than accelerate and exacerbate the ongoing genocide.
If anyone should be rhetorically dissuaded from voting start targeting Republicans instead because scolding anyone voting for the least shit option in regards to the genocide is a shit strategy for stopping a genocide.
Going to go back to voice to text and cursing like a sailor cuz that's what I'm used to. But I appreciate the sentiment and the agreeable conversation. 🤝
To be clear. I've never said not voting is a good choice. I never want to hear non voters complain because their voice doesn't matter cuz they don't use their vote f*** them.
What I am saying is calling out Biden for enabling genocide is valid and shouldn't be instantly shot down and voting for third party is cool in non-swing States.
Yeah I'm not saying anybody should roll over and roll that Trump win. I literally rather shoot myself. A vote for Trump is probably the worst thing you could do. I vote for the greens or the socialists or Cornell West on the other hand. It does some good. Not enough. Good to get us to where we need to be in this election but we can start the momentum now.
I agree with the sentiment and yes we do need to push biden to stop providing weapons to a genocidal state however this sort of purity shaming of voters isn't going to convince anyone to vote against trump. Calling people genocide supporters for begrudgingly voting for the least shitty option is going to turn them off of voting. And this sort of purity testing is the kind of I fighting that conservatives love to capitalize on. I despise that the objectively "best" choice is maintaining the status quo vs an accelerated genocide. Call it rationalization, call it cognitive dissonance, the best strategic option I can come up with is voting against a worse genocide.
And at the end of the day all this momentum building could very well be moot as Biden being in office is not a guarantee after this election.
See I don't think of this as "purity testing" because it's genocide... You know? Like is there anything worse? Is there a worse thing that Biden could be supporting?
When I think of purity testing , I think more of a situation like we're finally going to pass socialized healthcare, but dental's not included so let's just hold up the whole thing. That feels like a purity test cuz it's splitting hairs even if it's in a very important hair. When it's enabling genocide or not, there's no hair to be split there. It's just the worst thing you could do.
The Dems not being able to not enable genocide or even really call it out is majorly hurting what their voter outcome is going to be. Regardless of anything I say or do that is just the case.
I'm not going to blame the voters for that. But as we know, most people didn't want to vote for Biden in the first place anyway. They were really voting against Trump so hopefully they'll do it again this November. But the more I see Dems talk about how we just have to suck it up and vote for Joe. Anyway. The more I think that turns voters off.
Which is where I think our ultimate disagreement lies. I believe that defending Joe and telling people they have to vote for him anyway, in the face of the said genocide Will lead to lower voter turnout and possibly hopefully not but maybe a republican win.
I think a bigger strategy that gives people hope even if it's in the long-term will encourage voter turnout and higher voter turnout is better for Democrats.
Regardless, thank you for talking to me like a person and being cool. 🙂
I appreciate the willingness to explore the thoughts deeper rather than turn it into a shouting match. At the end of the day we both want the same thing, stopping a genocide, but we have to work with the hand were dealt and we both have different ideas how to get there.
I hope we get there regardless of the path. 🫂🤝
Good luck and I wish you well
Do you think maybe the electoral college and the stupid voting situation in this country has made it so many people have an opportunity to vote third party while their state still goes to Biden??
Calculating whether you can safely throw your vote away to a third party candidate is a next level strategy.
Yes, thank you! If you were to go through my comment history, you'll see me arguing for voting for third parties in non-swing States. I also cite that if any of those third parties gets 5% in the vote, they get public funding in the next round as well as a chance to actually contend.
My vote is probably going to end up going for Claudia de La Cruz or Dr. Cornell West. Because I live in a hard blue state that will not change.
Another comment cuz I want to elaborate the problem is the Dems are controlled opposition. They pretend to be leftist and say they want to do the right thing but they never do. They're always a couple votes short or just somebody turned on them or something always goes wrong. Obamacare was even a right-wing idea that came out of the heritage foundation. That's why it sucks.
So solution we need an actual left-wing party. How do we do that without majorly screwing ourselves?
The only way I can think of outside of a violent revolution is slowly gaining control of a third party election after election to the point where it's a viable contender and can win.
The only alternatives are violent revolution and continuing to pick the lesser of two evils and continuing to have the most important election of our lifetime so far every election. We need to do better. We need to organize.
Being complacent with where we are, especially with enabling genocide will only put us on the chopping block eventually.