I'm not talking about wars. I'm talking about Israeli apartheid, all of which was and continues to be enacted exclusively by Israel.

Well maybe Israel should stop its brutal, decades-long apartheid campaign that's pissing off all of its neighbors and pre-dates Hamas by around 50 years.

Idk I think Biden might be spiteful enough to want to see Harris fail.

What? Yes, lots of people are protesting and have been for over a year. I don't know precisely how many of them personally call their reps, I know I have been, but I think the massive, widespread protests combined with polling Democrat voters about their views on the matter makes the message pretty clear. Politicians have had plenty of time to respond.

I'm arguing against the idea that electing Kamala, then expecting to be able to move her left after the election, is a viable plan. If more people didn't tune out once January rolls around, then maybe it would be more feasible. But you and i are in agreement that a lot of people simply tune out once the election is over. Libs who protested kids in cages under Trump ignored kids in cages under Biden.

Voters have leverage now. If Kamala wants our votes, then believe me I would be thrilled to see her earn them.

I disagree with equating "I can't vote for a president who wants to continue to help commit a genocide" as "I expect a utopia and will settle for nothing less". I'm not going to vote for Jill Stein or whichever third party candidate, but I don't blame people who do. I blame party leadership for their failures. If they have a better vision for the future, it is their job to convince people that they are the best for the job. Right now, Dems are choosing to gamble their own votes so they can keep helping fascists commit a genocide and what increasingly appears to be a war of expansion and conquest in Lebanon.

get mad in time for the primary

Hell yeah. I have voted in every primary I could since I hit age 18.

I cant be mad that the cou try founded on genocide and slavery is still invested in hate.

You can, and you should be. Being mad isn't the same as being surprised.

I'm mad that come February I will hear only crickets and the giant shit sandwich we all consume every 4 years will be forgotten.

Totally agree on this point, and I don't know why you assume that I'm one of the many who choose to spend four years at brunch before starting to care about politics again.

No but seriously, does it not make you angry that the Dems are willing to gamble votes if it means they can keep helping Israel murder children? Genocide is that important to them? These are the people who are supposed to be better than that. If that doesn't make you angry then I don't think I'm the one acting in bad faith. Criticize my smiley face all you want, I'm not the one gambling with the future of the country and we both have every right to be angry about that :-).

When did I say I was happy? I don't want Trump to win any more than you do. Which is why I'm so upset that the party with the best chance to stop him is choosing to risk losing the election (and jeapordizing the rights of millions of Americans who will be harmed under a Trump administration) by continuing to support genocide. Doesn't this make you angry?

Oh don't get it twisted, none of these are "my tactics" and I understand that the current Dem leadership won't budge on their support for genocide. They've made it clear that their tactic is "try to win a presidential election while going against their own base". We'll see how effective that tactic is in around two weeks :-).

I thought this was learned in 2016 but I see a lot this repeating itself.

I'm pretty sure a lot of people who helped run Hillary's campaign are also helping to run Kamala's. They don't learn lol.

Of course they are. Harris might lose because of her positions on Gaza. And in spite of this, most Democrats, including Harris, refuse to budge on their "ironclad" support of Israel. Just like the Biden administration has refused to budge in the face of countless protests against their support for Israel over the past year.

I'm arguing against the whole "elect them and then pressure them into moving left" rhetoric because that has proven to be a completely ineffective tactic.

There have been countless protests in the US against the genocide of Palestinians over the last year, since Israel really kicked the genocide into high gear. What have the democrats (the party that everyone insists can be pressured by their base) done in response to this?

The counter-argument to your point is that now is the best time, as voters have the leverage to elect democrats or not. In theory, Dem leadership wants to be elected and requires votes to achieve that goal. Biden met with progressive activists shortly after taking office and promptly told them to fuck off as, since he was already president, they no longer had anything to offer him.

That said, I hear your point and am torn about how I will ultimately vote. I don't live in one of the nine (arguably three) magic states where my vote will actually count, though, so it's a bit of a moot point.

Obviously less, to the extent that anyone can predict geopolitical events that far in the future. I think the only counter-argument is the idea that an Israel that isn't receiving massive amounts of US aid will be invaded, but I don't find that argument convincing. It's an open secret that Israel has nuclear weapons, and even if the US stops arming Israel tomorrow I don't think Iran or their proxies are dumb enough to think that the US won't come rushing right back in if Israel is invaded.

The protestors want an end to the US facilitating genocide. Most Democrats want fewer, if any, aid to Israel, yet Democrat leadership refuses to budge.

You blame voters for "being willing to let Trump win". Why not blame leadership for hurting their own chances at election by going against their own base?

All of them, frankly. It's against US law to provide weapons to a nation that is using said weapons to commit human rights violations. My expectation is that the US follows its own laws.

Oh you mean that one weapons shipment that Biden very publicly refused to send, before he sent many more weapons?

Because everyone knows that Trump is not going to move on this issue, or really do anything good at all. Dems are supposed to be better than Trump, or at least they certainly insist that they are. People holding Kamala to a higher standard are taking the Dems at their word.

Leftists are some of the only people who paid attention or cared about Palestine before last year.

Hillary Clinton would have almost certainly won if her entire platform wasn't based around the idea that she didn't have to do anything good because, hey, what do you want to do, vote for Trump?

Blame her, because she is the one who fucked it up.