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Since Lemmy.world friends can't see the Lemmygrad and Hexbear comments, it's really weird to see the pro-commie takes not get downvoted and debated to oblivion
It's also kind of funny, Lemmy.world gets to pretend their takes have the majority of support when they shut out dissent.
If you really like to see clowns that think they are 100% you might like to see r/austrian_economics
I value sanity too much
Reasonable
Where are the pro-communist takes? I just see a bunch of pro-authoritarian takes lapping up PRC koolaid.
The PRC is Socialist and led by a Communist party, so the commenters are supporting the PRC.
Ah yes, the communist country that is held up by hyper-capitalist activity, with a rapidly growing billionaire class.
Socialism with Chinese Characteristics is Marxism-Leninism applied to the PRC's present productive forces and material conditions. They have not reached Communism, but they are firmly on their way to full socialization of the economy. The only way you could think they have abandoned Communism as a goal is if you have never read Marx, Engels, or Lenin, and therefore have never studied Historical Materialism.
The reason it's painfully obvious that you haven't studied Historical Materialism is because you clearly believe Communism is something that develops through decree, not degree, that the goal of Communism is to immediately socialize all production. This is absurd, and Utopian. Marx believed Socialism to come after Capitalism because Capitalism turns itself into a status ripe for socialism as markets coalesce into few monopolist syndicates, ripe for central planning. If the productive forces aren't ready, then Communism can't be achieved without struggles.
In Question 17 of The Principles of Communism, Engels makes this clear:
Will it be possible for private property to be abolished at one stroke?
No, no more than existing forces of production can at one stroke be multiplied to the extent necessary for the creation of a communal society.
In all probability, the proletarian revolution will transform existing society gradually and will be able to abolish private property only when the means of production are available in sufficient quantity.
What happened in China, is that Mao tried to jump to Communism before the productive forces had naturally socialized themselves, which led to unstable growth and recessions. Deng stepped in and created a Socialist Market Economy by luring in foreign Capital, which both smoothed economic growth and eliminated recessions. This was not an abandonment of Communism, but a return to Marxism from Ultraleft Maoism.
Today, China has over 50% of the economy in the public sector. About a 10th of the economy is in the cooperative sector, and the rest is private. The majority of the economy is centrally planned and publicly owned! Do you call the US Socialist because of the Post Office? Absurd.
Moreover, the private sector is centrally planned in a birdcage model, Capital runs by the CPC's rules. As the markets give way to said monopolist syndicates, the CPC increases control and ownership, folding them into the public sector. This is how Marx envisioned Communism to be established in the first place! Via a DotP, and by degree, not decree! The role of the DotP is to wrest Capital as it socializes and centrally plan it, not to establish Communism through fiat.
Read Socialism Developed China, Not Capitalism, and read Marx himself before you act like an authority without even understanding Historical Materialism.
No I have read it. I agree that China was in a bad state because they didn't do things at a tolerable pace, and instead used a more shock doctrine. The economy sucked, people were starving, being more authoritarian wasn't doing the trick, so they caved to pressure from the US to open capitalist markets, and allow for a capitalist class. Now China has grown its capitalist market, and its billionaire class, and its surveillance, authoritarian state, and the capitalist markets are every bit as important as the government. This is more reminiscent of fascism, in red uniform.
"Do you call the US is socialist because of the post office" is kinda the opposite of the argument i am making isn't it? I am saying that the structure is so integrated, and dependent on, its capitalists, that it looks more like the integrated corporatism of a fascist regime. So I am kinda inferring the opposite of this, am I not? That something as small as the US owning the post office would never qualify as socialism? Wouldn't that be a, lame, yet more apt attack on your argument?
They are even pushing their borders. The big blockade keeping them from going for it is the NATO superstructure that gives the US/NATO physical military reach anywhere in the world. And yes, I heard their "the enemy is on our boarders, we are just defending ourselves", but that is what NATO and the US say about their growing moves to take the sea of Japan, and the island nations of SEA, or, at least, the waters surrounding them. That is literally one of the first things from every empire that started taking foreign territory. Hell the belt and road initiative is just economic imperialism in its first steps.
No I have read it. I agree that China was in a bad state because they didn't do things at a tolerable pace, and instead used a more shock doctrine. The economy sucked, people were starving, being more authoritarian wasn't doing the trick, so they caved to pressure from the US to open capitalist markets, and allow for a capitalist class. Now China has grown its capitalist market, and its billionaire class, and its surveillance, authoritarian state, and the capitalist markets are every bit as important as the government. This is more reminiscent of fascism, in red uniform.
This is asinine. Mao and the Gang of Four weren't trying to "authoritarian" their way to a stable economy. They had good growth, but socialization was done prematurely. Instead, Deng invited foreign Capital while retaining Special Economic Zones and CPC supremacy over the Market. This isn't fascism no matter how you slice it, since fascism is Capitalism in decay and serves the bourgeoisie. China has a Socialist Market Economy.
"Do you call the US is socialist because of the post office" is kinda the opposite of the argument i am making isn't it? I am saying that the structure is so integrated, and dependent on, its capitalists, that it looks more like the integrated corporatism of a fascist regime. So I am kinda inferring the opposite of this, am I not? That something as small as the US owning the post office would never qualify as socialism? Wouldn't that be a, lame, yet more apt attack on your argument?
Your argument would only make sense if you supported any of it with facts and supporting evidence. The Private Sector is shrinking as a ratio of the entire economy of the PRC, the bourgoeisie is subservient to the CPC. This is not "reminiscent of fascism," because the proletariat retains control, not the bourgeoisie. The majority of the economy is publicly owned and planned, pretending that that makes it a Capitalist economy is woefully ignorant.
They are even pushing their borders. The big blockade keeping them from going for it is the NATO superstructure that gives the US/NATO physical military reach anywhere in the world. And yes, I heard their "the enemy is on our boarders, we are just defending ourselves", but that is what NATO and the US say about their growing moves to take the sea of Japan, and the island nations of SEA, or, at least, the waters surrounding them. That is literally one of the first things from every empire that started taking foreign territory. Hell the belt and road initiative is just economic imperialism in its first steps.
You acknowledge that NATO and the US are antagonizing the PRC and yet claim it's their fault? You call the Belt and Road Initiative "Imperialism" in its first steps without supporting that? You call the PRC fascist because it has a Socialist Market Economy subservient to a Dictatorship of the Proletariat? You have no idea what fascism even is, all of your analysis is surface level and it's clear that you're acting as a western-chauvanist. Good things are bad and fascist because it's Chinese people doing it? Utter chauvanism.
Read Marx, Engels, and Lenin before you start mouthing off about how you know better than Communist parties in AES states do.
Most of China, and for the matter, the USSRs economic, and supply woes were due to incompetence. People who did not understand how things, like farming, worked, forced farmers to do things that the farm laborers, you know, the proletariat knew wouldn't work. They absolutely destroyed a huge portion of their agricultural base with inept initiatives, informed by a lot of pseudoscience, primarily Lysenkoism. No, I am not saying the USSR intentionally starved Ukraine, or that Mao weaponized starvation. They implemented Lysenkoism, by force (an authoritarian action), it was pseudoscience, it, and a litany other stupid moves, they implemented by, again, force (you know, authoritarianism), ended up causing multiple great famines, killing tens of millions. The reason such pseudoscience was able to take control, in the way that it did, was because of the practices of party favoritism/elitism. Lysenko was an ardent communist, not some reactionary scientist telling us things we don't want to hear. Their centrally planned economy was also fed full of bullshit, in a similar manner. This lead to extreme inefficiency, stagnation, and widespread poverty. It was not until the implementation of the open door policy, created in cooperation with foreign interests, primarily the US, in 1978 that this began to change. Once they opened regional centers, to operate industry under a capitalist market system, they saw almost immediate improvement in many facets of their economy. Though it was rocky at first, the long term picture was one of growth. After just over a decade of development, China's economy really began to boom.
This has led to all the problems capitalism has wrought upon other countries. Their wealth disparity is enormous, and growing. The billionaire class is having more, and more influence over CCP decision making (billionaires currently occupy just over 100 seats on the CCP parliament, seeing rather consistent growth) despite purging the occasional "upity" CEO. (see Bao Fan, Jack Ma, Rhen, etc). This had led to flight of wealth, and a growing resurgence of brain drain. This assertion of control, through violence, is actually proving to be one of the, suspected (by Chinese economy experts) to be a major factor in recent slowing in GDP. Though it was impossible to maintain that growth, so how much of it is natural, and how much is not, is debated, though widely agreed it is has had a major impact. This has lead to strife within the CCP. There is no unified consensus on how exactly how this will play out, or whether or not Xi's policy will be moved away from, as it affects the wealth of the CCP members, its self. Also, the extreme wealth disparity, culture of their market, and numerous other factors, with great consternation, of the public, over the slowing of growth, is leading to less, and less, coherence within the citizens. There is whole a lot going on, like literally 100s of thousands of pages of data and studies on the subject out there. Too much for me to concern myself with here, though I will leave some links below.
The borders thing. Yeah, the "west" established its self first, so it is, of course, reacting to the growing strength of China, and its influence over the region. China is also reacting to these established boarders, trade routes, etc. with their own expansion in mind. I do not see this as China simply bullying everyone around them, nor do I see it simply as China being a victim of being surrounded to previously established nations, and their operations. Both parties are pushing their strength where they can. If NATOs military infrastructure recedes from its SEA, and east asian allies' areas, China will continue to push its borders on those places. Looking at the history of literally every major power in history, I do not believe, for one second, China will voluntarily hold back from imperial expansionism, if it comes to a situation where it can. The USSR took everything around it the moment it could, in the aftermath of WW2, and I expect nothing less from any other nation who is given the opportunity. Their expansionism can very well be seen with the BRI. It is wrought with corruption, graft, extortionate lending practices, etc. While some nations, primarily in Africa, still prefer working with the BRI, to similar economic cooperatives with the EU, and NAFTA countries, there is a growing disdain for it too. A lot of places are really starting to see that it is just China's version of western economic control, as China gets control over more, and more, of their wealth.
https://rhg.com/research/no-quick-fixes-chinas-long-term-consumption-growth/
https://www.jri.co.jp/english/periodical/rim/1999/RIMe199904threereforms/
https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/RL33534.html
https://www.jri.co.jp/english/periodical/rim/1999/RIMe199904threereforms/
https://ceias.eu/understanding-the-implications-of-chinas-economic-slowdown/
https://www.ncuscr.org/podcast/chinas-slowing-economy/
https://now.tufts.edu/2023/11/20/why-chinas-economy-slowing-down
https://www.worldscientific.com/doi/epdf/10.1142/S1013251123400052
https://www.belfercenter.org/publication/chinas-21st-century-aspirational-empire
https://macmillan.yale.edu/sites/default/files/files/Victor Louzon.pdf
https://carnegieendowment.org/posts/2020/05/china-has-two-paths-to-global-domination?lang=en
Wow, that’s a lot of gish gallop nonsense from Western bourgeois sources with a vested interest in smearing the threat of a good example.
billionaires currently occupy just over 100 seats on the CCP parliament, seeing rather consistent growth
So we’re just making random shit up?
This had led to flight of wealth
Not very much, given China’s capital controls, but I’m sure a few gusanos will find a way. Certainly not enough to be a problem, and in any case, the Chinese state has fiat monetary sovereignty.
Helping 800 Million People Escape Poverty Was Greatest Such Effort in History, Says [UN] Secretary-General, on Seventieth Anniversary of China’s Founding.and a growing resurgence of brain drain.
Making up more random stuff 😂 The exact opposite is happening. Foreign Policy: Chinese Scientists Are Leaving the United States
You have drunk ALL the Kool-Aid.
Never said that scientists weren't leaving the US. And I did say that China created massive economic growth, I am aware that they were able to pull 800mm people out of poverty, with capitalism. Also never said I thought China was going to collapse. It is also easy to look up the people on Chinese parliament and see who they happen to be, btw. You can do it yourself, but I know you hate engaging with data, and actual research. What you have formed as your reality is all of reality. Also, outside of the chinese scientists that cold war fear-mongering are driving out, the US is, over all, gaining scientists, and in many fields, in STEM in general, the US actually has a glut of PHDs. Also, a lot of the lack of educated professionals, claimed by places like tech corps, is questionable, at best. Much of that is capitalists creating a false scarcity, for numerous reasons. I could post data about that, but, since the CCP didn't publish it, I guess it isn't real.
So, not only do you have to fall back on a fallacy, but you have to create a whole narrative of things I never said, nor implied. You did the reactionary thing, where you hear something you don't like, and automatically create a whole dialogue, that never happened, in your head, to secure your position.
I am aware that they were able top pull 800mm people out of poverty, with capitalism.
This is definitely true: they took advantage of foreign capitalists to help them quickly develop their productive forces and catapult themselves from a nation of illiterate agrarian serfs to one of the most technologically advanced states with the world’s largest productive capacity. The crucial point is that the Communist party did this with eyes wide open, and never allowed the foreign or domestic capitalists wrest control of the state. This is evidenced by the state recently popping the real estate bubble and leaving capitalists to eat their losses.
- Reuters: China Evergrande ordered to liquidate in landmark moment for crisis-hit sector
- CNBC: China’s housing minister says real estate developers must go bankrupt if necessary
- Bloomberg: China Reiterates Stance That Homes Are Not for Speculation
.
“We must adhere, to the very end, the belief that housing is for living in, not for speculation,” China’s Housing and Urban-Rural Development Minister Ni Hong said at a press briefing in Beijing on Saturday. “The government guarantees basic housing needs […].”
I don’t have the time or energy to pick apart every bit of nonsense, but this one is annoying me so…
They absolutely destroyed a huge portion of their agricultural base with inept initiatives […] ended up causing multiple great famines.
Not multiple: one each in the USSR and China. And these were the last famines, after centuries of famines being a common occurrence in Tzarist Russia and Imperial China. These two famines happened during droughts that occurred not long after revolutionary wars that upended the countries—hardly ideal conditions. The USSR and Communist China ended the famines.
You literally reference the "US Army War College" as a legitimate source on BRI? Belfercenter on China? Yale? Carnegie endowment? This is the most plain-faced assertion of blatant propagandistic drivel. That's also ignoring your bold-faced lies about how well the USSR functioned, and again, you act an authority on Marxism despite not having any clue about it. This is pathetic.
Ah yes, unless it is CCP approved it isn't true. Have fun with that fallacy. I know it's hard to engage with data and review it for yourself, or against others. Much easier to just go, oh, it is a bunch of academics in the west, surely all their data is wrong, don't need to review it, if it doesn't have the stamp of the CCP, it is all false. Tiananmen never happened, commrade.
Tiananmen never happened, commrade.
🙄
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml has covered this any number of times. Most recently: https://lemmy.ml/post/20412168/13993208
links 4 u
- The Tian’anmen Square ‘Massacre’: The West’s Most Persuasive, Most Pervasive Lie.
- 1989 Tian'anmen Square riots
- A Note on the Tiananmen Protests
- Images from Tiananmen 1989 the West never shows (NSFW / CW: violence and death)
- Tank Man video footage. Tiananmen Square, Beijing, 1989
- How psy-ops warriors fooled me about Tiananmen Square: a warning
- [Carl Zha’s] Memories of Tiananmen Protest
Surely you can find a non-US State Department source? And the June 4th incident absolutely happened, just not on the Square itself, but in the surrounding areas, which funnily enough is also what the CPC says happened.
By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak. Fascist governments are condemned to lose wars because they are constitutionally incapable of objectively evaluating the force of the enemy.
It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed person, who goes about hungry, and cannot find employment.
Real liberty can exist only where exploitation has been abolished, where there is no oppression of some by others, where there is no unemployment and poverty, where a man is not haunted by the fear of being tomorrow deprived of work, of home and of bread. Only in such a society is real, and not paper, personal and every other liberty possible.
That's very true but Lemmy will call that being lib
It's literally a quote from Joseph Stalin.
That's part of the irony
pro-authoritarian takes lapping up PRC koolaid
Koolaid is when you spend 16 years building trains.
Truth and Liberty is when your roads are falling apart faster than you can resurface them.