2mo ago

Ancient wisdom

cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/23770280

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Doug Holland @lemmy.world

2mo ago

Ancient wisdom

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Was the invention of electricity evil because it created the electric chair or was it good because it created home heating? God created free will, we chose to do evil with it. Being prescient he would have known what we would choose to do with it and still created us anyway, allowing both good and evil to happen. Can we agree on that part?
Tell me how evil was his creation and not ours. Give me an example of such a thing
- Being prescient he would have known what we would choose to do with it and still created us anyway, allowing both good and evil to happen. Can we agree on that part?
  Yes, we can agree on that! Since your god is all-mighty, he specifically chose to create us so we'd create the electric chair. He could have created us slightly differently so we'd still create home heating without creating the electric chair, but he chose to make us do both.
  So god created all evil. After all, he could have created us without the capacity for evil. Had he not created the concept of evil, we wouldn't even have the option.
  Tell me how evil was his creation and not ours. Give me an example of such a thing
  God created us and gave us the capacity to do evil. He could have created us without the capacity to do evil (since he's all-mighty). Literally everything is his creation, is it not?
  
  Do you believe humanity is all evil with no redeeming qualities? If yes then I get why you would think that. If no, then he created us for BOTH the good and the bad
  Anyone can choose to stop doing evil. If they have free will then it's a choice they made, not god. Can we agree on that?
  
  No, I don't think that humanity is all evil. But I feel like you're dodging the central question I'm asking, because you keep bringing up that we can also do good.
  God created good and evil, and he created us with the capacity to do good and evil, while he had the explicit knowledge that we'd do evil. He could have also chosen to only create good, and to create us with the capacity to only do good. Why did he create both good and evil, instead of only good?
  Initially you stated that good and evil are necessary for free will, but you immediately backtracked on that. Since then you keep repeating that humans do evil, but that's not relevant to what I'm asking. Please try not to use any allegories or to reframe my question. Just try to answer: "God gave us the capacity to do evil, because..."
  
  God gave us the capacity to do evil because he gave us free will. Giving free will meant doing evil is inevitable and anything different wouldn't be free will
  He created humans with the capacity to do evil, therefore he created evil. I understand the central point, I'm disputing your belief that it's possible to have free will and never do evil
  Can't really represent this point without an allegory but are social insects (ants, bees, wasps, termites etc) represent always doing good? A river? Stellar fusion?
  
  Oh, I thought you backtracked that immediately. So that means your god isn't actually all-powerful, right? There exists some higher concept of good and evil to which he is bound, which he cannot violate?
  Who made that concept? Why is god able to do anything except create free will without evil? He created the concept of free will, why can't he create it differently?
  
  I think I'm starting to understand where we differ
  Option 1: humans cannot do evil, only good (not free will)
  Option 2: humans can do good and/or evil
  Why imagine an illogical reality where both of these things can be true, we don't live in it. Being all powerful means such a reality can be made, but god chose not to make it. He bound us by this logic, not the other way around
  This also gives the opportunity for a human being to turn away from evil at great sacrifice to themselves and choose to do good, and such a morally good act wouldn't be a good act if they had no choice. Why can't the argument then be reversed, if good exists in the world then god is either good or powerless to stop it
  
  Why imagine an illogical reality where both of these things can be true, we don't live in it.
  Because that's the topic of discussion: why is the world the way it is? This approach to discussion is one I see time and time again with religious people. You claim your god is all-powerful, all-knowing and all-knowing, while simultaneously binding him to your own rules of logic. Questions beyond that don't fit into that framework and are blocked off with "that's just not how things are".
  Being all powerful means such a reality can be made, but god chose not to make it. He bound us by this logic, not the other way around
  Exactly, that's my point! The only logical conclusion is: your god chose to create evil. You can of course say that it's necessary for some reason, but IMO unless I can learn this reason there's no way for your god to actually be all-loving. That's exactly what abusers do - they say they're abusing you for your own good, it just has to be this way!
  This also gives the opportunity for a human being to turn away from evil at great sacrifice to themselves and choose to do good, and such a morally good act wouldn't be a good act if they had no choice.
  Why not? Who made that rule? Once again, it was made by your god. Why did he choose the rules so evil must happen for good to happen?
  Why can't the argument then be reversed, if good exists in the world then god is either good or powerless to stop it
  You're trying to twist the logic towards absolutes. Just because good exists doesn't mean god is all good, just like evil existing doesn't mean god is all evil. But evil existing does mean that god is not all good.
  
  Questions beyond that don't fit into that framework and are blocked off with "that's just not how things are".
  Fair enough, I can accept that. We live in a reality where you cannot have free will and only good at the same time. I can't imagine anything different so I can't follow you in that line of thinking, and since no such reality does exist it's a moot point
  Exactly, that's my point! The only logical conclusion is: your god chose to create evil. You can of course say that it's necessary for some reason, but IMO unless I can learn this reason there's no way for your god to actually be all-loving. That's exactly what abusers do - they say they're abusing you for your own good, it just has to be this way!
  So following your analogy of abusers, if someone recommends an objectively good course of action, gives you the free will to follow it or not, and you don't, did they abuse you?
  Why not? Who made that rule? Once again, it was made by your god. Why did he choose the rules so evil must happen for good to happen?
  I get what you're saying but going back to the first point, this is the only reality we live in. Do you have any response that doesn't involve rejecting our reality? Can we say based on our current reality the freedom to do evil was necessary for goodness?
  None of the positive things we've made as humans would have been possible without free thought, not electricity not the internet not architecture. If you want to imagine such a reality where this is possible without the capacity for evil then you're welcome to but it doesn't exist, so it serves nothing but avoiding the question
  You're trying to twist the logic towards absolutes. Just because good exists doesn't mean god is all good, just like evil existing doesn't mean god is all evil. But evil existing does mean that god is not all good.
  So follow that train of thought then, what is the inverse? What are the good things that show god can be good, stack them up against the evil things that show god can be evil (real madadam hours here)
  How does heaven and hell factor into the equation? Would you accept that on the day of judgement and a neutral observer rewards the good and punishes the evil and subsequently allows only good onwards then god will be all good in your eyes?
  
  Fair enough, I can accept that. We live in a reality where you cannot have free will and only good at the same time. I can't imagine anything different so I can't follow you in that line of thinking, and since no such reality does exist it's a moot point
  Okay, but then why are you claiming your god to be all-powerful? Why do you bind him (and the discussion) by the rules we live by, which he created?
  So following your analogy of abusers, if someone recommends an objectively good course of action, gives you the free will to follow it or not, and you don't, did they abuse you?
  No? But if someone recommends an objectively good course of action, and makes someone rape me if I don't follow it, they did abuse me. That's the situation here - rapists wouldn't exist if your god didn't create the concept of rape. God knew when creating everything that this specific person would specifically rape me because I will choose not to follow gods recommendation. He could have chosen to create the universe so this doesn't happen, but he didn't even though he knew.
  I get what you're saying but going back to the first point, this is the only reality we live in. Do you have any response that doesn't involve rejecting our reality? Can we say based on our current reality the freedom to do evil was necessary for goodness?
  Again, why are you binding your all-powerful god by the same rules we live by, when he created the rules?
  I'm also not convinced that evil must be possible for free will to exist. God didn't give us all of his powers - does that mean we don't have free will? If you can still have free will while being bound to a smaller subsection of choices, we can still have free will while only good is possible, it's just a matter of degrees.
  None of the positive things we've made as humans would have been possible without free thought, not electricity not the internet not architecture. If you want to imagine such a reality where this is possible without the capacity for evil then you're welcome to but it doesn't exist, so it serves nothing but avoiding the question
  If this is indeed true, your god is the reason this reality doesn't exist, so why can't I make this logical connection?
  So follow that train of thought then, what is the inverse? What are the good things that show god can be good, stack them up against the evil things that show god can be evil (real madadam hours here)
  There is no inverse. You can't show that your god is all good if he created evil. That's the very center of our disagreement: you claim your god to be all-loving, I claim that he can't be since he created evil. Your position only works if you follow the abuser logic, or if you break the logic at some point. And breaking the logic is totally fine! That's what faith is in the end - the belief that something exists beyond our purview and logic. If your god truly exists (and I sincerely hope for you he does, that would be amazing!), he doesn't have to be bound by our logic. But personally I think it does mean you shouldn't claim the argument to be debunked :)
  How does heaven and hell factor into the equation? Would you accept that on the day of judgement and a neutral observer rewards the good and punishes the evil and subsequently allows only good onwards then god will be all good in your eyes?
  No, because he still created evil. I don't care if child rapists are punished, it doesn't un-rape the children they raped. God still created the universe knowing these children would be raped. This is an offense that IMO can't be corrected.
  
  I haven't forgotten about this, I do intend on responding. I did a lot of thinking about this and I have some verses that will actually prove your point and will respond soon, I am wrong in completely dismissing god's participation in the evil that happens (objectively evil acts, not just blessings hidden as calamity)

44 comments