When you say "two things can be bad at the same time", what are you saying really? You're saying "I don't care about dead Palestinians"
When you say "two things can be bad at the same time", what are you saying really? You're saying "I don't care about dead Palestinians"
If I don't clickbait the title people don't click.
With the recent events happening in Gaza, I decided to first tackle this line of argument in my essay Zionism is antisemitism, and Palestine.
People were quick to say "yes Israel is bad, but Hamas..." (kidnapped 200 people, killed 1000, take your pick).
When you're saying this, you're actually saying that one israeli is worth 7 Palestinians. Read that again if you need to; it's an ethnosupremacist position.
What is the logical conclusion of this argument? What is it supposed to achieve except convey empty platitudes and declaring to the world that you just don't care enough to have any valuable input?
It's fine not to care. I'm not your dad, I'm not going to try and change you.
But don't declare it publicly. Don't proudly say "well actually both sides are bad". You don't look smarter or wiser than anyone else who is taking a clear stance. You're not taking the "middle ground". Everyone who has taken sides and is trying to be productive about this (and not just the Gaza genocide, but really any situation where you can apply "both sides") really doesn't have time for this holier-than-thou bullshit.
Gaza "kidnapped" 200 settlers and that's a war crime apparently. It's not really, but whatever. Let's say it is. Israel has killed 7000+ Palestinians in retaliation, now likely more than 10k as they cut off communications in Gaza last night.
Both sidesers: what's your solution to this. If you say anything other than "I should not get involved" then you don't actually believe both sides are bad and you are picking a side. It's time you realize where you stand.
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Thank you for the essay. I learned (or perhaps unlearned) a lot from it, and have more than enough links for further reading.
However.......
I hope that you will eventually find Hamas' line on the issue of state secularity, because "Hamas not secular!!!" honestly has been my biggest, like, liberal brainworm wrt the Palestinian liberation conflict, and the essay didn't manage to fully excise it from my noggin.
So my take on the war basically has been, "Support the PFLP and other explicitly secular leftist/anti-Zionist groups in the region; support the flight of Israeli refugees and their welcoming back to their true homelands around the world; support aid for Palestine, food, medical supplies, psychological support, so forth; support sabotage of Israeli infrastructure and economy; support strikes/resignations and sabotage at foreign weapons and munitions factories supplying Israel; agitate against Zionism; support Jewish and Palestinian communities around the world; etc." — so basically, every way to support the Palestinian cause except direct support for Hamas (which I guess is really just, like, indirect support for Hamas, anyways...)
I have seen comparisons between Palestine now and China under its occupation. Essentially the type of stuff that Lenin wrote about in A Caricature of Marxism & Imperialist Economism, which I recently listened to S4A's audiobook of. That the struggle for national liberation must be fought first before a socialist revolution can take place, and so all groups fighting for national liberation must be supported, including those which are not socialist or secular — that this lays fertile ground for socialist revolution later on. This is how things played out in China: the CPC and KMT fought alongside each other against Japan, and then the CPC fought against the KMT and pushed it to Taiwan.
This feels like a lot to gamble on, though — essentially that after the liberation conflict, there will be another conflict where the folks who we uncritically support will very definitely and certainly win — although... a free Palestine, even under a (")reactionary(") leadership, is still going to be better and more humane than the settler-colonial regime, so... What point am I even trying to make here?
...Honestly, I don't know.
Some final notes:
- Some non-leftists seem to be under the impression that non-Jewish Palestinians want to expel Jews from Palestine, and I do not understand this. Aside from the fact that Palestinians are just not bloodthirsty savages, and that Palestine has always had Jews, and all that... Once the colonial system has been torn down, its last vestige would just be millions of highly skilled and educated immigrants, which is pretty useful to have after a liberation war, right?
- The current war, I've heard, has allowed for more "parallel governance" or however you call it to emerge in the region. That as infrastructure is destroyed and the Israeli government focuses on the war effort, that common people are replacing government services with their own popular ones. I don't know much about this but it was mentioned in connection with anarchism.
I'm also curious about the history of Labor Zionism and of religious and ethnic minorities in the region, in particular Circassians. Can you point me to any good resources about these topics?
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I should be able to find the Hamas charter and then comb through it eventually.
Some things to consider is that there are Christians in Gaza and they "even" have churches.
I think most people, some in good faith and some in bad faith, think that being non-secular means being intolerant. But secularism only means there is no promoted religion, there's the separation of church and state. Hamas has been clear that they they want a multireligious state of Palestine where Jews and Christians will be welcomed.
Indonesia is not secular for example and while as a tourist you should follow the laws (as in all countries), it's also a huge tourist spot where millions of Europeans and Americans go every year without any issues.
On Reddit, the bad faith Zionists (when I posted my essay) said that Hamas does not want a multiplural republic because they are not secular. But the two are not opposites, and in fact in history Islam was the most progressive of the three Abrahamic religions when it came to accepting the other two.
When has Hamas said they want to welcome Jewish populations? I thought their charter was pretty vocal about not accepting Judaism: Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Moslem people. "May the cowards never sleep."
If Hamas is tolerant of Judaism, why are there no Jewish families in Gaza? Honest question, I'm not an expert on the situation, just trying to make sense of the facts.
I didn't read your link, but in either case that is the old charter, when Hamas was a fledgling group without popular backing or input from the masses.
Latest charter was released in 2017.
- Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.
- Hamas rejects the persecution of any human being or the undermining of his or her rights on nationalist, religious or sectarian grounds. Hamas is of the view that the Jewish problem, anti-Semitism and the persecution of the Jews are phenomena fundamentally linked to European history and not to the history of the Arabs and the Muslims or to their heritage. The Zionist movement, which was able with the help of Western powers to occupy Palestine, is the most dangerous form of settlement occupation which has already disappeared from much of the world and must disappear from Palestine.
You've opened my third eye.
Glad to hear.
In either case, I think the correct position as a communist is to follow what the comrades in Palestine say. If the PFLP/DFLP/PFLP-GC support what the Qassam Brigades are doing, then I will repeat their position as long as they keep it. To liberal westerners, I will never condemn Hamas or the communist parties in Palestine.
Yes, absolutely.
If Hamas is tolerant of Judaism, why are there no Jewish families in Gaza? Honest question, I'm not an expert on the situation, just trying to make sense of the facts.
maybe because gaza is an open air prison that no one would move to willingly?
Honest question, I’m not an expert on the situation, just trying to make sense of the facts.
Please. You and I both know that's a lie. Don't take me for an idiot in your first interaction with me.
You don't deserve a response, but maybe this will educate other people.
I thought their charter was pretty vocal about not accepting Judaism
Maybe get up to date lmao. Bro is citing something from 1988 as if the world hasn't changed. Look at their 2017 charter instead.
why are there no Jewish families in Gaza?
Gaza was started as a refugee camp for Palestinians after the Nakba in 1948. Eventually they built a city there to try and get some semblance of normal life back. You're not gonna bait me into saying there were Zionists living in Gaza until 2005 when Hamas drove the IOF out lmao. Too young, too naive.
Please. You and I both know that's a lie.
Do I sound like an expert? I'm genuinely trying to understand. I haven't kept up on the most recent charter, that was useful information, thank you.
Gaza was started as a refugee camp for Palestinians after the Nakba in 1948...
Haven't people been living in Gaza for centuries? Maybe it was called something else before. Did the Jewish families leave in 1948?
Haven't people been living in Gaza for centuries? Maybe it was called something else before. Did the Jewish families leave in 1948?
I didn't agree with their initial hostility to you, but this sentence genuinely sounds like sealioning.
You may educate yourself about Palestine. In 1948 Palestinians were ethnically cleansed, and Jewish families already living in Palestine were forced to either go with them if they supported their Arab compatriots, or stay and live in the stolen lands. Migration of mostly white mostly affluent people was fostered to "israel" by the west to cement this injustice.
Gaza and West Bank are similar to reservations in NA, although much more violent (in the sense of the state's violence). No one would willingly subject themselves to living there unless they had some connection to the land (Palestinians) and hoped to return to a vibrant and free Palestine.
I mean your attempt at concern trolling is pretty blatant. You don't know much but you know Zionist propaganda, how does that happen!
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