Is it me or is (desktop) Linux still a terrible experience?
Is it me or is (desktop) Linux still a terrible experience?
Every so often i start believing all the posts about how Linux really made a lot of progress, and the desktop experience is so much better now, and everything is supported, and i give it another try.
I've got a small intel 13th gen NUC i use as a small server, and for playing movies from. It runs windows 11, but as i want to run some docker containers on it, i thought, why not give Linux a try again, how bad can it be. (after all, i've got multiple raspberry pi's running, and a synology diskstation, and i'm no stranger to ssh'ing into them to manage some stuff)
Downloaded the latest Ubuntu Desktop (23.10), since it's still a highly recommended distro, and started my journey.
First obvious task: connect to my SMB shares on my synology to get access to any media. Tough luck, whatever tool Ubuntu uses for that always tries SMBv1 protocol first, which is disabled on my synology due to security reasons. If i enable it on my synology i get a nice warning that SMBv1 is vulnurable and has been used to perform ransomware attacks, so maybe i'd rather leave it disabled (although i assume that's mostly the case if the port were accessible from the internet, but still). Then i thought "it's probably some setting somewhere to change this", but after further googling, i found an issue that whatever ubuntu is using for SMB needs a patch to not default to SMBv1 to get a list of shares.... Yeah, great start for the oh so secure linux, i'd need to enable a protocol that got used in ransomware attacks over 6 years ago to get everything to work properly... (yeah, i ended up finding how to mount things manually, and then added it to my fstab as a workaround, but wtf)
Then, i installed Kodi, tried to play some content. Noticed that even though i enabled that setting on Kodi, it's not switching to the refreshrate of the video i'm playing. Googling further on that just felt like walking through a tarpit. From the dedicated librelec distro that runs just kodi that has special patches to resolve this, to discussions about X not supporting switching refreshrates, and Kodi having a standalone mode that doesn't use a window manager that should solve it but doesn't, and also finding people with similar woes about HDR. I guess the future of the desktop user is watching stuttering videos with bad color rendition? I'd give more details about what i found if there were any. Try googling it yourself, you'll find so little yet contradictory things...
Not being entirely defeated yet, i thought "i've got this nice GUI on my synology for managing docker containers & images, let's see if i can find something nice on ubuntu", and found dockstation as something i could try. Downloaded the .deb file (since ubuntu is a debian variant it seems), double clicked the file and ... "no app installed for this file"... google around a bit, after some misleading results regarding older ubuntu versions, i found the issue: https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2023/10/install-deb-ubuntu-23-10-no-app-error
Of course Ubuntu just threw out the old installer for debian files, and didn't replace it yet. Wouldn't want a user to just be able to easily install files! what is this, windows?
For real, i see all the Linux love here, and for the headless servers i have here (the raspberries & the synology), i get it. But goddamn this desktop experience is so ridiculous, there has to be better than this right? I'm missing something, or doing something completely wrong, or... right?
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and then added it to my fstab as a workaround
Use of
/etc/fstabis not a workaround. It's the standard place where you add things to mount.Your problem is that you use googling, watching pictures and clicking through stuff, just like in Windows, thinking that this skill makes you an advanced user.
Instead of googling you can just read the error message, it usually sufficiently explains what the problem is.
Installing software should not change settings like file type associations, I think that's normal. You may think differently. Somebody has made a choice which in this case is closer to my opinion, in other cases that may be different.
Of course Ubuntu just threw out the old installer for debian files, and didn’t replace it yet. Wouldn’t want a user to just be able to easily install files! what is this, windows?
This is incomprehensible.
Ubuntu does still have a GUI to install software from .deb packages, I think.
But you shouldn't try to install packages for another distribution using .deb packages (like Debian itself), or packages for another Ubuntu version.
Unlike some software installer in Windows, a package on most Linux distributions doesn't include dependencies, only information about them and the software itself. Say, in Windows you can have the same DLL in a 100 copies and versions if it's not a system one. In Linux you usually have the same library installed and even loaded once.
But goddamn this desktop experience is so ridiculous, there has to be better than this right? I’m missing something, or doing something completely wrong, or… right?
Yes, you are getting something completely wrong, and it's the culture and not some technical difference.
Though I agree that outside of repositories maybe software should be distributed not in the same packages, but like something to be put into
/opt, like in olden Linux days and more similar to your Windows experience ; GOG games' installers do that, only use~/GOG\ Gamesor whatever you choose.EDIT: And also Ubuntu as a distribution has some downsides. Try Mageia, it's not widely used, but pleasant. Or Fedora, everyone and their dog is using it. Or OpenSUSE, it's kinda spiritually corporate and they have worrying plans for the following major versions, but as of now it's pleasant.
EDIT2: Also why did you google for software in the first place? You couldn't find what you wanted in the repositories or just wasn't aware how it's done here?
Ahh the favourite pasttime of the linux community: blaming the user.
See, i install ubuntu. It has this files application to brows your files in a gui. I click other sources, it detects my SMB shares, i click on one of those, and i get some vague error, i no longer have the exact error text but it was something like "item not found in list". You feel that on a fresh desktop install clicking the files tab, and then clicking the discovered network share, and expect it being able to handle a protocol that got exploited in 2017 being disabled, and then throwing an error "item not found in list" is me just randomly clicking around expecting a windows experience and me not being able to read error messages? You're so far off the mark that it's not even funny anymore. Yeah, i've got a dozen containers on my synology with proper permission management and shared users between those containers, properly exposing some to the internet, and having set up watchtower to automatically update everything to keep it secure since i'm such a windows user that doesn't know anything else...
Ubuntu does still have a GUI to install software from .deb packages, I think.
dude, CLICK THE LINK I GAVE, IT DOESN'T. and what do you mean install a package for another distribution. https://dockstation.io, see the link "download for ubuntu/debian". I'm just doing what the first application i thought of trying tells me. Or do the developers of linux apps themselves have no clue how to support the most popular distro? According to you that may be the case, but that's not my fault then.
And why did i google software? i entered "docker" in the package manager but didn't find much, so i thought i'd give google a try. also to get some reviews/experience of people trying the applications, i could blindly try packages, but reading some user experiences makes the choice easier.
Ahh the favourite pasttime of the linux community: blaming the user.
"The Linux community" in general understands that you are not "just dumb" or a "noob", but you are unfamiliar with the way things are done in Linux, your Windows experience is useless for that, and you should be informed of that.
Now some Windows-savvy people thinking that not being able to navigate their junkyard is being a "noob" seem worse for me.
click on one of those, and i get some vague error, i no longer have the exact error text but it was something like
Unlike on Windows, errors here are usually informative, and "something like ..." is useless. We can't trust you to determine if it's vague or not.
dude, CLICK THE LINK I GAVE, IT DOESN’T.
The article advises you to install GDebi from repositories (with a nice GUI) to do that. Have you done that?
and what do you mean install a package for another distribution.
You should install a package for Ubuntu on Ubuntu and a package for Debian on Debian. The package filename extension being .deb and its format being .deb doesn't mean it'll work on any system using .deb . Yes, it may.
Or do the developers of linux apps themselves have no clue how to support the most popular distro?
Developers usually care most about the distribution they themselves use.
And if something isn't in the repositories of the most popular ones, it means the developer of the application doesn't care to maintain it there and nobody else cares.
According to you that may be the case, but that’s not my fault then.
Your fault is treating it wrong. If others don't need it and you need it, why cry that desktop Linux sucks? Maybe it sucks for you, well, sorry.
Unlike on Windows, errors here are usually informative, and “something like …” is useless. We can’t trust you to determine if it’s vague or not.
Yeah, i'm a developer, the error i got was about as helpful as "nullreference exception". I found the issue was the SMBv1 default by googling the exact error. Here it is for you "Failed to retrieve share list invalid argument". Really helpful message :).
The article advises you to install GDebi from repositories (with a nice GUI) to do that. Have you done that?
Yes, and then got stuck since that tool failed to find something called gconf2 that is a dependency. Then i followed command line install instructions that also gave errors. Which the instructions found perfectly normal and expected, they said to then run an apt command to fix it, but then apt would just uninstall the application again (which i guess 'fixes' a botched installation).
But you find it normal that the application normally handling .deb files on linux just disappears on a popular beginner distro, and to install something i have to start googling and avoid all the links telling me to use the built in application that suddenly disappeared, to then find that one link that tells me "yeah, ubuntu made a huge mistake here, here's how you fix it".
Sorry, but this is just abysmal user experience. And yeah, i'm a developer, i can find my way around command line tools, but for something this basic? for real?
Your fault is treating it wrong. If others don’t need it and you need it, why cry that desktop Linux sucks? Maybe it sucks for you, well, sorry.
So i should expect every little thing to be a minor or major struggle, with the rich ecosystem of linux apps be so fragmented to mostly just work on the distro the developer uses, which you have to guess since they might still mention your distro on their website, even if they don't really properly support it.
If treating it wrong means not making linux my hobby, and just wanting to use it like i can with my headless servers, then it's indeed not for me. And yeah, i've head my moments of frustration with my synology/raspberries. But most of the things i want to do on them do work from the first try, and if a gui is offered, it just works. If that's too high of an expectation, then you just come across as delusional for me. I don't expect everything to be perfect, but for it to be this bad in 2023 just seems ridiculous. And maybe i just happened to land in a perfect storm of things that don't work on ubuntu being the first things i try. But then being like "maybe linux isn't for you". I'm a professional developer running multiple headless linux machines and a dozen docker containers for various things. If it isn't for me, who is it for O_O...
and to install something i have to start googling
To install something you have to install it from the repository, and not download something from some webpage.
If you do the latter and encounter problems which you don't know how to solve, that's not someone else's fault.
Most likely there was some version conflict or your system wasn't multilib (didn't have 32-bit Intel compatibility repositories enabled and certain packages installed from there), while the thing you downloaded was for 32-bit Intel.
i’m a developer, i can find my way around command line tools
That doesn't really require one to be a developer, it's like saying "I can find my way around 3-button mouse", but OK.
So i should expect every little thing to be a minor or major struggle, with the rich ecosystem of linux apps be so fragmented to mostly just work on the distro the developer uses, which you have to guess since they might still mention your distro on their website, even if they don’t really properly support it.
Not "every little thing", just every little thing with such a developer.
And maybe i just happened to land in a perfect storm of things that don’t work on ubuntu being the first things i try. But then being like “maybe linux isn’t for you”. I’m a professional developer running multiple headless linux machines and a dozen docker containers for various things. If it isn’t for me, who is it for O_O…
The issue is you resist others trying to point out your mistakes. And that "I'm a professional developer" attitude invokes suspicions really.
And note that I'm not saying a particular distribution is fine. I actually use Void, in some sense because of the issues with some more "user-friendly" or smart things.
Maybe you should try that or Gentoo (which recently got official precompiled binary packages on its mirrors, so you don't have to compile everything) or Arch. May actually be easier.
Or NixOS, it's a more "modern" thing with declarative configuration etc, I haven't used it, so can't give advice, but maybe with the way you seem to use lots of devops tools it will feel ideologically familiar.
To install something you have to install it from the repository, and not download something from some webpage.
Ah yes, i should have known better than to rely on the documentation of the website of an application i should install. Do you guys really consider this a sane ecosystem? I google what kind of apps there are for what i want. I find the site of one i want to try, it says "here is a deb package for ubuntu", and then hell ensues. And when i share this experience your reaction is "you should have known better" O_o... yeah no. This is just insanity. If according to you even the developers of applications fail to send their users in the right direction on how to get their application installed, there is probably little hope for a mere user like me.
Well, go blame the developer of that application for failing to do things right.
Why would consequences of their actions somehow affect the sanity of the "ecosystem"?
That the ecosystem seems so complex that even developers don't know how they should recommend their users should install an application. Haven't encountered that yet on windows. And i've had plenty of people here tell me "yes, you CAN install deb packages, and many apps will GIVE you deb packages, and the ubuntu page says Debian packages is the very HEART of ubuntu. But you'd be insane to install something like that". Does that sound like a good ecosystem, where people aknowledge that the best way to do stuff is ignore everything app developers & the makers of one of the largest distros say, and do the opposite and ignore apps that you can't install in the way that i should magically know is the best way.
I stand by my words man, but you're free to try to convince me :).
that even developers don’t know how
Talking as if being able to develop software made you a superhuman.
Most developers of something with Linux versions do get it right and if there's a "downloads" or "get X" section on their website, it just instructs to install the thing from the repository, with the package name. Sometimes with a separate section for every of the most popular distributions and nice distro icon.
Does that sound like a good ecosystem, where people aknowledge that the best way to do stuff is ignore everything app developers & the makers of one of the largest distros say, and do the opposite and ignore apps that you can’t install in the way that i should magically know is the best way.
It's not a single "ecosystem". Every distribution is its own "ecosystem".
First you blame Ubuntu for some unknown app's developer's choices, then other distributions for Ubuntu developers' choices. It just doesn't make sense.
I'm not blaming them for an unknown apps developers choices, i'm blaming them for putting on their site that deb packages is the heart of ubuntu, but when i complain here that installing one is a nightmare on the latest ubuntu i get thrown at my head that installing deb packages is a stupid idea and i should somehow know better.
You can keep throwing up strawmen, but that won't change my point in anyway. But you can keep ignoring the point i guess, you're quite good at it it seems.
And i've had plenty of people here tell me "yes, you CAN install deb packages, and many apps will GIVE you deb packages, and the ubuntu page says Debian packages is the very HEART of ubuntu. But you'd be insane to install something like that".
That one is on Canonical/Ubuntu, too.
Ubuntu is a bastard spinoff of Debian and is run by a pretty evil corporation.
They took the Debian .deb packages and their format and modified them so they are sometimes compatible and sometimes incompatible to the original Debian packaging format. And on top of that, they didn't even rename the package suffix so there are now two kinds of .deb packages: original Debian and semicompatible from Canonical. They also have different package dependency definitions, so installing the same program on either might pull in different dependencies (which is actually not a bad thing, as packages might got sliced differently; mentioned for completeness)
Always use the distribution's package manager to install packages from the distribution's repositories, try to avoid installing packages directly, as they are then outside of the repository ecosystem. Do not do it!
I would go as far as saying: if the program is not packaged, think twice if an alternative wouldn't be the better option as otherwise you'll have a foreign package installed in your system, with possibly broken dependencies and that does not get updates, which in effect undermines one of the core Linux principles, there is not a single Linux distribution without a kind of package management. (Disclaimer: there probably is because with Linux you can do pretty much everything but it would just be a rare one and not for general consumption)
Booooo op Boooooooo
Edit:get off the stage