Infestation 88 devs address controversy over Neo-Nazi claims
Infestation 88 devs address controversy over Neo-Nazi claims
Infestation 88 developer, Nightmare Forge Games, have responded to claims that the '88' in the game's title refers to the Neo-Nazi salute.
Infestation 88 developer, Nightmare Forge Games, have responded to claims that the '88' in the game's title refers to the Neo-Nazi salute.
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It really is annoying how many alt right dog whistles there are
It seems like every time the alt-right and neo-Nazis make something a new dog whistle (remember the "ok" sign thing that started on 4chan?) the left is just like "oh fuck, I guess we better stop using that now."
I'm not sure there's a better option. It's not like it's a good idea to just go on flashing "ok" signs and pretending it hasn't been coopted by fascists, but it seems shitty and frustrating to just cede ground like that every time the alt right is just like "this is ours now."
Come to think of it, I named a project at my workplace "IG-88" a while back and didn't think about the Nazi connection until the name was already in common use. (With that name, the project in question even had a badass theme song.)
There's some pretty obscure ones to that came and went in a hurry like a glass of milk.
I feel like some have also been claimed for general use. I don't really associate Pepe memes with the alt right anymore
I'm mainly associating Pepe with all the Twitch emotes.
In my opinion the better option is to ditch the concept of dogwhistle. We [people in general] should look at what a symbol (including words, gestures, etc.) conveys within a certain context, we shouldn't be picking individual symbols and assuming the discourse (what is being said) based on them.
For example, the 88 in the title of the game should be associated with the rest of the game. Because depending on the rest of the game it might convey only "1988", or it might convey "heil Hitler".
Well sure, but people use dog whistles so it's important to recognize them. Context can be important but sometimes it's subtle, that's why they're called dog whistles.
Well sure, but people use dog whistles so it’s important to recognize them.
Fascists don't need to use dogwhistles to call each other. And they often don't use them, specially not the best known dogwhistles - because it's like saying "I'm a fascist lololol please kick my arse!".
As such, when you look for dogwhistles, you're bound to get
- lots of false positives - someone being mislabelled a fascist because they used the same symbol to convey something else;
- lots of false negatives - fascists slipping past your radar, because they didn't use the dogwhistles that you trained yourself to identify
It's simply not a good way to find and get rid of them. Unlike looking at what they're saying "in the big picture"; that's always reliable because they need to convey their shitty discourses if they want to spread them.
Context can be important but sometimes it’s subtle
Context is always important. And as a general rule (not failproof): if you're actively looking for the context and it's still too subtle for you, then odds are that it's too subtle for the fascists to get it too.
(Note: I'm talking about "fascists" here but it also applies to other shitty groups of people.)
No, fascists do use dog whistles. near constantly. In part because they are generally too chicken shit to say anything. It is similar to how (fascist) republicans think they are clever with "go brandon" whereas liberals and leftists just say "Fuck trump, I hope he dies of the most painful cancer imaginable".
And while there are "false positives", those are almost all immediately resolved with "yo dog. Uhm... I get you are in your mid 30s but you may want to stop putting your birth year in posts" and a "... holy fuck. Fucking nazis". Because, "context" generally does apply. The people who need to sign off "14 88" for every single tweet are usually also liking other white supremacist shit. Whereas the people who just got screwed over by what GFWL suggested their username should be twenty years ago have a history of advocating for tolerance and leftist thought.
As for "false negatives": Okay? Some fascists will be undetected with or without acknowledging their "super secret code" of dog whistling.
I got your examples, but tone down your nationalistic bubbling - fascism is a global issue, and yet you're framing it specifically into USA politics, as if other users were necessarily expected to be American.
In part because they are generally too chicken shit to say anything.
It's because they're generally too chicken shit that they avoid dogwhistles, and actually say it - using a dogwhistle actually increases their odds to be detected and called out.
Here's a real example of that, from Reddit's r/againsthatesubreddits.
TW: transphobia
This thread links a lot of transphobic replies to a r/trueunpopularopinion thread called "Pronouns should not be enforced as they are now."
When you look at what the users say, on a discursive level, you find "wonderful"[/sarcasm] things like this:
The user is clearly associating trans people and changing one's social identity with mental illness, that's transphobic per excellence. And yet the nearest of a dogwhistle that you could claim is that he used the word "schizophrenic".
Should we take "schizophrenic" as a dogwhistle? Well, then let's put Mayo Clinic as potential spiritual successor to Mein Kampf. [/sarcasm]
And if someone says "Mayo Clinic doesn't have the context to read it as a dogwhistle" - if you're already going to use the context to dictate meaning, might as well ditch the concept of dogwhistle, and look for what they say.
And while there are “false positives”, those are almost all immediately resolved with “yo dog. Uhm… I get you are in your mid 30s but you may want to stop putting your birth year in posts” and a “… holy fuck. Fucking nazis”.
From my experience, that is far from true. Those people finding false positives will usually insist that the other is a Nazi, to the point of irrationality. Often doing things like I criticised Josh Fagundes (check the Twitter link in the OP) doing, and trying to justify their false positive as a true positive by grasping at straws.
It's like witch hunting - once you get labelled a witch, it doesn't really matter if you're a witch or not, you're going to be treated as one.
As for “false negatives”: Okay? Some fascists will be undetected with or without acknowledging their “super secret code” of dog whistling.
"Some"? No. More like "a lot of fascists". Because you're looking for a super secret code while they're saying things in the open.
Also, note that trying to decrease the amount of false negatives will increase the amount of false positives, and vice versa. So those issues are interconnected.
EDIT: about your example:
“yo dog. Uhm… I get you are in your mid 30s but you may want to stop putting your birth year in posts” and a “… holy fuck. Fucking nazis”.
That is not how it usually happens. It's usually like this:
- [Alice] you put a 88 in your posts, so I you're probably a Nazi. Fuck off Nazi.
- [Bob] No, that's my birth year. ...holy fuck, fucking nazis. I'm removing the "88".
- [Alice] Trying to hide yourself, Bob the Nazi? I'm not stupid! (implied: "I can't be wrong!")
- [Charlie] Alice said that Bob is a Nazi who uses 88 dogwhistles. He's probably a Nazi.
- [Dan] Alice and Charlie said that Bob is a Nazi. Both. He's a Nazi for sure. (implied: ad populum fallacy)
You see a low-key version of that in this very thread, with Josh being a low-key version of Alice.
The "ok" sign thing pissed me off. I had learned from a very young age that it was sign language for "ok" (it combines the signs for the letters) and when I went to swim class, my mom would watch and when I'd look over to her she would sign that to me that everything was ok, and sign "I love you" (🤟 — not to be confused with 🤘ROCKANDROLL🤘) to me as well. For the record, no one in our family is deaf, we just learned some basic sign language because communication is cool.
Then keep using it as the ok sign.
If they coopted the peace sign or the "I love you" sign, would you stop using them too? Stop giving in to their trolling. I feel like being so sensitive to Nazis gives them way more relevance than they deserve.
I'm not saying we should ignore Nazis in general, just... don't let them control our culture.
That's easier said than done when you have political idiots that will see it and try to ruin your life uploading shit to the internet saying you're doing it for the wrong reason. It's not just the Nazis themselves, but the idiots that think they're being progressive and an ally and all that shit when they don't know their ass from a hole in the ground.
Exactly. Progressives are their own worst enemy, and their behavior calling out Nazis just makes Nazis more popular.
It's usually best to ignore idiots and trolls than give them attention.
It's not like it's a good idea to just go on flashing "ok" signs and pretending it hasn't been coopted by facists
Why not? Symbols only have meaning given context. In Germany, a swastika is a symbol of hate, whereas in India it's a symbol of prosperity and good luck. It's usually not hard to differentiate them, so there's no real reason to avoid a symbol just because some idiots have decided to use it to mean something else.
On the flip side, there's a fantastic reason to keep using them: the best way to beat a troll/bully is to ignore them. Don't give them the emotional response they're looking for and you remove all rewards for their behavior.
So if the alt-right coopt a symbol, use it more. Don't let them impact you or they'll keep doing it.
So does that mean you would have preferred that Infestation hadn't changed its name?
I guess? I honestly had never heard of the "88" terminology, I guess I just don't follow neo-Nazi nonsense that closely. Maybe I'd respond by making the protagonist Jewish or something in a minor content update, just to mess with people.
This whole "cancelling" culture is absolutely stupid. Neo-Nazis don't own numbers, hand symbols, or anything else, so I wouldn't give in to that nonsense. Then again, I'm not trying to live off making video games, and if I ever did release any (and I hope to), it'll be as a hobby and not as a job.
Here's a list for you to educate yourself on what is or isn't currently nazi shit online:
https://www.isdglobal.org/explainers/memes-the-extreme-right-wing/
https://www.adl.org/sites/default/files/ADL Hate on Display Printable_0.pdf
And they thrive on your ignorance, they are out there and they aren't just recruiting for numbers, they're also recruiting for people like you who are dismissive of them, because if your dismissive of them then you're also dismissive of those of us trying to educate people about them, they want people to ignore both them and us.
Also cancel culture doesn't exist, consequence culture is what exists, the only people that bitch about cancel culture are the ones who's bad deeds have caught up with them and they don't want accountability for their actions, so they, and their stupid ignorant sycophants cry "I'm being cancelled!" When in fact they were just being pieces of shit that accountability is finally catching up to.
ACAB - All Cops Are Bastards
Interesting start to that list
Imagine identifying as a class traitor
they thrive on your ignorance
No, they thrive on your fear and outrage. As they say, there's no such thing as bad publicity. If they manage to tick you off, people who like watching you get angry will be attracted to their side.
cancel culture doesn't exist
Really? I can point to several examples where someone's career was ruined just because they were "cancelled" ([here are three CBS reported on] (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/cancel-culture-changed-lives-forever-cbsn-originals/)).
Usually what happens is this:
- Person says or does something to offend some group (often by accident)
- Said group demands an apology
- Person apologizes
- No company wants to associate with the person for fear of backlash
- The person is either fired or loses all followers
The best strategy, apparently, is to not apologize. That ticks off the group, but it also generally reduces how much publicity the event gets, which means there's a decent chance for it to blow over. In some cases, this leads to weird extremist subgroups because the person attracts the wrong sorts, and in others the person is able to change their behavior so that group comes back after forgetting about the incident.
It's incredibly stupid that apparently apologizing is punished, but that's how it seems to work out. Those who have been targeted that don't apologize tend to not be as impacted.
That said, I'll look through those links. I'm always interested to identify bigots so I can avoid them.
I get what you're saying, but in cases like this I think it's important to "signal" (but like unironically) that you aren't trying to do a little wink and a nod to racists. Yeah it can be tiring, and it's not an exact science, and we're going to slip up, but that's the worthy work of making sure racists don't feel welcome to be even subtly racist in our spaces.
Well, they did change the name. That's a pretty big signal.
But honestly, this whole culture of avoiding anything some enemy group has coopted just gives that group legitimacy. Every time we bend over backwards to avoid Nazi stuff gives the Nazis more publicity, and as they say, there's no such thing as bad publicity. So merely calling this out helps Nazis.
I really don't get how that's not obvious. If we keep calling everything "Nazi stuff," we'll keep talking about Nazis, and then someone will get curious, think the public is being "unfair" and sympathize with the Nazis. We're doing their job for them...
Its weird to say youve never heard of the 88 thing, as thats taught in history classes in the US, a country famous for shit education. In europe, loads of countries have laws against using it because of this.
Really? Is it a relatively recent thing? My last US/European history class was over 15 years ago, so if it came up anytime I'm the last two decades, i wouldn't have learned about it.
From some cursory research, it started being a thing at least as of the early 2000s, and that's about when i went to high school. So it could very well have not been popular enough yet to cover in school.
Regardless, it's not something I've come across. I wonder if the devs here are the same way.
Honestly, a lot of it was just some random twitter user trying to start shit. The drinking milk thing was one of those.
Yeah. The "ok sign" one started just as some random 4chan post.
That wasn't some random 4chan post it was something planned by a group of 4chan users that made it into an "operation" to push this to go after liberals and the media, and why would they he doing that? Oh because it was started by actual Nazis on 4chan.
Again this is just Nazis trying to use left wing and media overreaction to cover up their Nazi shit, they like trying to make us look like we're jumping at shadows while they operate with impunity.
That's the thing is it always seems like it's just one of these shitheads but soon enough it always becomes more, that's why they push this stuff, and why they hope for reactions like yours.
It goes back to the 60's and 70's, the dawn of Punk music, back before Skinheads were inherently Nazi they were black and white people in London fighting for worker solidarity, then the Nazis took it over and it became a thing inherently Nazi.
So this corruption of things is what they do to grow and to maintain a general ignorance about them.
It's because they purposely co-opt things in order to spread their message and find new recruits, they're societal human cancer.
This isn't "the 'OK' hand gesture is used by nazis"
This is shit like a game about gassing rodents to death, lots of "14 88" references, references to german WW2 military technology, etc.
I guess you're not getting this.
The Ok hand gesture, Pepe the frog, Yes Chad, GigaChad, Wojak, these are all things that the neo-nazis online utilize to get the conversation about them going, this is stuff that they take purposely to get guys like you to say "but this isn't the ok hand gesture is used by the Nazis" because they want that cover, they want that doubt, they want that degree of dismissal of the person pointing out that this or that is nazi shit, and they also want the person who has it pointed out to them to feel like the claimant is just being silly, hyperbolic, and seeing Nazis everywhere, this is their goal and their purpose, not only to recruit and become bigger, but also to seem like there are more of them than there are.
My point is it's all the same shit, 1488 or just 88 isn't old nazi shit, that was a post-war Hitler humper invention, so even you're conflating the topic out of confusion.
Here's some good references and write ups about this stuff, because educating yourself on what is or isn't nazi shit will help prevent you from falling for their bullshit:
https://www.isdglobal.org/explainers/memes-the-extreme-right-wing/
https://www.adl.org/sites/default/files/ADL Hate on Display Printable_0.pdf
Yes. A lot of nazis came out of 4chan and all the South Park Libertarian "ha ha, I am just making jokes" stupidity. Gamergate and then The Alt-Right are perfect examples of that. It is all jokes about The Jews and gas chambers while also hearing about how The Blacks and The Mexicans are taking jobs. This is neo-nazi 101 and has been their open playbook for over fifty years.
Again, this is not that. This is not "oh, ha ha, that frog doesn't make you a nazi. It just means you have the same sense of humor". These are direct references to nazi ideology
Both are incredibly dangerous and a great way of normalizing bigotry. One of them is "secret handshakes" in public. The other is getting on a podium and sieg heiling.
So no, it is not "all the same shit" and people like you who are clearly pissy about folk getting mad at you spamming pepe are just normalizing nazis. So kindly fuck off with that "if we acknowledge when people are acting like nazis we turn them into bogeymen. It is much better to ignore it and hope they go away" bullshit.
If it walks like a nazi and quacks like a nazi then you tell it to fuck off and play in traffic. And if it wasn't a nazi? They apologize and stop quacking.
Again, this is what you're not getting, when you tell a nazi to fuck off and they apologize and stop quacking, that just means they've stopped quacking at you, it doesn't mean they've stopped being a Hitler Humper, you're just being naive or clinging to some misbelief that people aren't easily susceptible to this shit, and that the amount of racist and nihilistic people is much higher to than you realize.
So... because people do bad stuff we shouldn't tell them to fuck off for doing bad stuff?
And one of the best ways to prevent people from being in fluenced? Ostracize the bastards. Basically from WW2 up until the late 90s, Nazis were the designated bad guy. Neonazis were the bad guys in the Very Special Episodes of boy meets world and the like. And that made it clear "Nazis are bad. Don't be a fucking Nazi"
But between South Park normalizing "its funny to make fun of the Jews" and the strong push back against having the designated stabbing bags? It reached the point that people lost their god damned mind over the devs at Machine Games saying "fuck Nazis" at the Keighleys a few years back.
And that leads to stupidity where people no longer view them as subhuman to the point of only being worthy of scorn.
So yeah. I am gonna keep telling Nazis to go fuck themselves with strong implications that the world would be a better place if they weren't in it. And I am going to stop responding to you until you explain why you are so adamant about protecting them from ridicule and scorn... even though it is increasingly clear why.
Are you misreading everything on purpose?
Sea Lioning is a thing, but I'm not sure if they are doing that, probably just doesn't want to admit the Nazi problem is bigger than they think it is.
Yeah I remember working with people who didn't even feel comfortable using the "ok hand" emoji because of associations with white supremacy (back when the hand sign was in the news again). Obviously white supremacy is a lot worse than that kind of minor chilling effect, but yeah, they just smear a little of their leaky shit everywhere so that people who actually care about their fellow humans have to expend extra energy vetting their own messages for dog whistles and double meanings.
You seem to hear the dog whistle. Are you a dog