Should Hexbear MLs tone down their admiration for AES so we’re not scaring potential leftists away?
Should Hexbear MLs tone down their admiration for AES so we’re not scaring potential leftists away?
Inspired by recent discussions, I think Hexbear has a lot of good information about socialism but I wonder if the relentless defense of AES on Hexbear means shooting ourselves in the foot, since many potential leftists have been thoroughly primed to react negatively to AES states?
We’re not getting our messages out when progressive instances have already pre-emptively blocked us and calling us “tankies”.
People are being turned away without even taking the opportunity to read some of the stuff here, because they already have a pre-conceived notion about Hexbear being filled with “crazy tankies who defend totalitarianism”.
I know there have been a lot of propaganda and fabrication being perpetuated about socialist countries, and it feels “right” to defend them against these false accusations, but I wonder if this is doing more harm than good for the present day nascent socialist movement, at least in the Western countries?
We can remain on the current course and feel indignant about the tankie accusations, but will forever remain as a niche “tankie” community.
Or, we can open ourselves up, by toning down the admiration for the socialist states so we are not being treated as hostile by the other instances, and thus opening up the opportunities to have productive interactions with users (and potential leftists) from other instances?
(I do have my own position, you probably know which one it is, but I’m willing to hear from others and reevaluate my own opinions if needed).
EDIT: Thanks to everyone who responded. All points are well taken. Thank you.
You're viewing a single thread.
OK I think I should elaborate on my own thoughts since I am asking others to do so.
I think this site is one of the rare instances on the internet where you can discuss openly about AES without immediately being overwhelmed by obnoxious anti-communist propaganda, so there is a good reason for Hexbear to stay the way it is.
At the same time, it is also limiting our interactions with others who may be more averse to think positively about AES. Unfortunately I think the two paths are mutually exclusive, you can’t tread both paths together, so it has to be one way or the other.
I had pretty common beliefs among western leftists on North Korea and China until I got exposed to the Chapo sub and then Hexbear.
There is nothing I want more than for the "red fascism" accusation stuff to dissipate so the air is clear enough to talk about things the USSR actually made mistakes with.
I actually just asked a related question in another post in an attempt to learn so I want to genuinely ask what you think were mistakes of the USSR?
I don't think USSR was at all fascist, for the record.
Oh my bad those are scare quotes around the terminology. "Marcyist" is another one that shows someone is really from another era of punching left and likely works for a think tank.
This is a huge tangent but I was searching the keyword "leftbook" on here and some of the descriptions kind of fit what I think OP wants. It sounds worse than r/stupidpol.
You literally can't have a coherent discussion of shit if you allow people to casually regurgitate everything CNN or Fox tells them. There's nothing about the liberal fixation on democracy that makes anything Hitler wanted impossible.
Oh my bad those are scare quotes around the terminology. "Marcyist" is another one that shows someone is really from another era of punching left and likely works for a think tank.
Oh, there's no reason for you to apologize. Maybe we're misunderstanding one another. I also dislike thinking of USSR as red fascism, but also genuinely curious about a critical approach to its mistakes as seen from the Left.
You literally can't have a coherent discussion of shit if you allow people to casually regurgitate everything CNN or Fox tells them. There's nothing about the liberal fixation on democracy that makes anything Hitler wanted impossible.
Israel and Ukraine are currently great examples of that being very true.
The USSR shouldn't have re-banned abortion, shouldn't have re-criminalized homosexuality (Stalin was personally pretty homophobic, it seems), shouldn't have let Trotsky live, and plainly failed to figure out how to reconsolidate the Party leadership after all the shit that went down with a certain splitter and his opposition bloc and the chaos of the great purge.
Past 1953, the list gets much longer, but that's because Marxists had lost control and revisionists had taken over the central committee (though many were still [inadequate] socialists). Obviously that wasn't exhaustive of pre-1953 issues either. Lenin had an impossible task and state capitalism seems to have been a failure to properly account for class antagonism forming a bureaucracy, but still made great progress and his and Stalin's mistakes were nothing compared to those of the subsequent leadership.
Oh yeah I was just clarifying I didn't think you were throwing stuff like the term around.
Oh, I see! For sure. I didn't think you were, was just trying to reassure I didn't think that.
Look at us being so careful with each other. Haha
leftbook
Oh god, don't get me started on that trash heap.
It seems like everyone here completely got over even screenshotting them years ago so I can imagine 🤣
I was there pre and during bernies 2016 momentum, and distinctly remember a well-beloved figure on there literally working as an information officer for the us navy, and openly advertising it on their linkedin. Absolute baby brains.
Wow, not surprised to see people gatekeeping leftism on Hexbear... we need vets too 🧐
Damn, guess i'm gonna be banned for fedjacketing again lmao
Read Blackshirt and Reds by Parenti. He basically lays out all the mistakes and errors of the USSR pretty clearly
I actually found a free PDF off archive.org and just read the chapter Stalin's Fingers. That was very helpful and surprisingly concise, will check out more of it. Thanks for the recommendation!
I understand where you're coming from, but in my experience, tolerating ignorance in order to appeal to a wider demographic is how you end up with a "Fuck Tankies!!!!1!" banner
it is also limiting our interactions with others who may be more averse to think positively about AES
Have you looked at how these "potential comrades" treat people from those countries who disagree with them online? May as well ask why Cold War-style wrecking isn't received positively
This right here. At least some of those people who demand to be allowed to hold and defend anti-AES views do so because of a wilful and malicious double standard against non-western states. It may be justified by propaganda, but there’s a deliberate choice to indulge in chauvinism.
You do realize a lot of the people we need to appeal to aren't westerners right? Not everyone on this site is from the US or UK or western Europe or another anglo-nation, although that is the predominate userbase most likely as it's an english site primarily. Just as prospective baby libs might get spooked off by defense of AES and defense even of non-socialist "dictatorships" such as Libya, Syria, Russia, Iran, Yemen keep in mind that prospective hexbears from 2nd and 3rd world countries might get spooked off by inadequate international solidarity, social-chauvinism and insufficient anti-imperialism generally from westerners here. Your "filter" cuts both ways, and I'd rather have one group here than the other