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"Oh wow, these fascist concentration camps we're being sent to are really bad, but have you considered that the democrat's foreign policy was only moderately less heinous, instead of significantly? Both sides!"
The Republicans are absolutely worse, yes, but voter apathy among leftists is 100% the fault of Dems. They do not try to garner support of leftists in any way, and voting for dems does not move America to the left, it just solidifies it in its current Neoliberal position.
The answer to leftist voter apathy is therefore not to shame them, but help them see that because voting will not move America to the left, it's purely loss prevention. People absolutely stand to lose under Trump, or any other Republican, so leftists should vote for the Neoliberals.
However, that alone is not enough. To move America to the left, the most effective path is via grassroots organization like Unionization and electing Socialists to local offices. Pressure the system from below and the top will follow.
That's how you appeal to leftists more, since the Dems seem keen on pissing on Leftists.
The Republicans are absolutely worse, yes, but voter apathy among leftists is 100% the fault of Dems. They do not try to garner support of leftists in any way, and voting for dems does not move America to the left, it just solidifies it in its current Neoliberal position.
Considering how far to the right America is, I'm gonna have to disagree about voting for Dems not moving America left. All things are relative, and relative to what we're facing down from the GOP, the milquetoast neolib Dems look like Vladimir fucking Lenin.
The answer to leftist voter apathy is therefore not to shame them, but help them see that because voting will not move America to the left, it’s purely loss prevention. People absolutely stand to lose under Trump, or any other Republican, so leftists should vote for the Neoliberals.
The point of the shame is that they're refusing to engage in loss prevention. That loudmouths on here would prefer to uphold some ideal of "I'm not going to vote for anyone except those who agree with me completely, no matter who suffers because of it!" and need to be fucking shamed. It's lack of shame that enables them to indulge in purist and accelerationist fantasies at the expense of the actual wellbeing of minority and oppressed groups.
However, that alone is not enough. To move America to the left, the most effective path is via grassroots organization like Unionization and electing Socialists to local offices. Pressure the system from below and the top will follow.
I agree.
I hear the sentiment about dems being significantly closer to the center than the fascist reps, but that's not a linear move by voring dem. You aren't voting to move America closer to Socialism, but closer to Neoliberalism. If the dems won every single election, they still would stay neoliberal unless the Reps fell and a more leftist party took its place. You can't push America to the left by voting harder, just push it closer to Neoliberalism.
My point about shame is that usually, radlibs try to yell at leftists by showcasing how progressive Biden is compared to previous dems, when being progressive for a Neoliberal is still a fucking Neoliberal. I've seen it plenty of times, a leftist points out that voting for dems won't move America to the left (correct) and then radlibs try to say that Biden somehow is actually good and leftist (incorrect, he's just a progressive Neoliberal), then the leftist feels more alienated and doesn't vote at all because nothing will change (incorrect conclusion).
By framing electoralism not as a means to gain what leftists want, but to avoid losing what they have, and pointing out that actual change comes from bottom-up, you prevent voter apathy and inspire activism.
I hear the sentiment about dems being significantly closer to the center than the fascist reps, but that’s not a linear move by voring dem. You aren’t voting to move America closer to Socialism, but closer to Neoliberalism. If the dems won every single election, they still would stay neoliberal unless the Reps fell and a more leftist party took its place. You can’t push America to the left by voting harder, just push it closer to Neoliberalism.
I think we just have a fundamentally different perspective on this one. My point of view is that neoliberalism is closer to the left than corporatocracy and fascism - not by virtue of being particularly left, but by virtue of being closer to the center, and thus that the difference between "Democracy, but free market fetishists with a welfare state" and "Democracy, but socialist" is smaller than "Democracy, but socialist" and "Neocalvinist ultranationalist authoritarians"
Voting for neoliberals in my view thus does move the country left relative to where it is currently - but only to a point, and not indefinitely (and only because we're already pretty far right overall).
I think you misunderstand my point. America is already Neoliberal, that's why the Democrats ran on a platform of "nothing will fundamentally change." A vote for dems does push america comparatively left on a left/right scale, yes, but as it gets closer to neoliberalism it will move less and less left with each election cycle. The pressure to move left comes from the bottom up.
Then I think we're in agreement, just expressing it differently.
Most likely, yes! That's a huge problem I think for many on this platform, most of the leftist infighting comes from saying the same thing in different ways. There's legitimate infighting too, of course, but most of it is silly.
You mean the fascists that democrats support in primaries because they're "unelectable"? Democrats can eat shit, same with any of their voters who are deluded enough to think that people unwilling to vote for senile genocidal nazis and their collaborators are the real fascists
Keep carrying water for fascists, eventually they'll pat you on the head and call you a good little collaborator before you get the same treatment the rest of us will.
Democrats are gonna keep going right until eventually Democrats are gonna be right off desantis and you're gonna support them the whole way. How sad, I wish you wouldn't completely fuck over my life and the lives of everyone else here just because you want to feel superior to everyone else
completely fuck over my life and the lives of everyone else here just because you want to feel superior to everyone else
Legit perfect description of what you're doing by simping for trump
This shit is why I'm not voting for biden. I don't wanna vote for a denocidal cunt whose party supports Actual Fucking Nazis, and smug cunts like you just make me even more sure it's the right choice
"One option is bad, so I'm going to choose the worse option!"
Those of us who will be rounded up for extermination thank you for your stunning dedication to democracy at home and abroad. I'm sure the Palestinians will be kissing your boots too, for putting an even more pro-genocide president in office. But hey, who cares if more Palestinians die because you wanted Trump in office? At least you can say "I didn't vote for JOE BIDEN" when the fascists are marching us to the ditches to be shot.
Also holy shit you think trump will kill more Palestinians than biden? Holy shit you're delusional xDDDD he's literally as fucking awful as he could be about it without literally nuking Gaza, trump would be shit too (like most presidents) but he literally cannot be worse than biden in that regard
Are you kidding? There is so much fucking more we could be doing. That's either a lack of understanding of what Biden is and is not doing, a lack of understanding of what the president can do, or a simple lack of imagination. Do you really think Trump wouldn't have jets running sorties on Palestinian targets right now? Do you think Trump would be using any of the US's influence to peddle 'humanitarian pauses', since Bibi has explicitly and loudly rejected the idea of a ceasefire? Do you think Trump wouldn't be pulling out all the stops to see Palestinians die and brag about what a great and murderous 'war president' he is?
All this commenter is thinking is that they can't wait for trump's reelection
It would have been quicker and easier to type "vote trump everyone"
"Oh wow we're getting genocided but at least CNN can attend the white house's press meetings"
What, do you think that if Biden loses, the Israelis are going to... what? Genocide the Palestinians less?