I wonder which one is harder
I wonder which one is harder
Edited to be slightly more fair to people complaining that they don't think genocide is good just fine
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This guy does literally nothing but tell people how Democrats are awful people (and implies you shouldn't vote for them)
TONS of posts like that.
I really wouldn't be surprised to find out he's Russian.
No-one is supporting genocide. If people don't vote for Biden (and even if they do, the popular vote might not be enough), Trump will win.
The only case where saying "don't vote for Biden" would be if Trump was actually a better, smarter, more emphatic president, and would use the US's power to instantly stop helping Israel.
And who exactly thinks that's even possible in any scenario or even parallel universe?
Not voting for Biden would be like being a pro-Hitler British person in 1939.
He's a voter suppressionist actively trying to get Trump elected under a thin veneer of guilt and shame. He's appealing to people that haven't been paying attention and think the Israeli mistreatment of Palestinians started right after October 7th, rather than in 1948. By doing this tries to claim that American support of genocide is brand new thereby absolving himself and others of the guilt associated with it, unless of course they also support The Genocide™ by voting for Joe Biden.
More importantly he can claim that Joe Biden is the only presidential candidate that supports The Genocide™, so vote for someone else and you won't be supporter of The Genocide™. The quiet part is that Trump never supported The Genocide™ because it never happened until Biden was president.
Don't pretend nothing changed after October 7 or that there aren't candidates like Jill Stein and Cornell West who oppose the genocide.
Lol okay.
Every time people bring up Jill Stein and Cornell west as serious candidates it makes me ask how they expect either to get 270 electoral college votes. So I'll ask you, the serious progressive advocating for Jill Stein and Cornell West, how does either one of them get 270 electoral college votes? Hopefully you can do better than the last guy who's response was "just tell people their ideas and then get votes".
I also think its telling you couldn't even pick one candidate. You're convinced 3rd party candidates are our saviors but instead of picking ONE candidate to support, you take the shotgun approach and throw out a bunch of names and hope one of them sticks. There isn't even a single 3rd party candidate you support, but you're desperately telling me to pick one, any one, as long as it isn't Genociden Biden, because they oppose The Genocide™. Vote for anyone else and I'll be showing I don't support The Gencoide™ either.
Even if I were convinced that either of them could get elected, I am not convinced that either have the political capital to govern in an effective manner, much less change the course of America's support for Israel. So what you're really advocating for is for me to help Donald Trump get elected on the infinitesimal chance that a miracle candidate could get elected and then have no practical impact on Israels actions.
All that aside, little has changed since October 7th other than Putin's boy Benjamin Netanyahu seizing the opportunity to start a war that will keep him in power as long as it's going on.
What's even more important to Palestinians than the 40,000 or so dead Gazans is the day after the war. Will it result in full occupation and control of Palestinian territory by Isreal, which would be the final stages of the slow burn genocide. A plan which Trump endorses.
Or will it be a general withdrawal and return of Gaza to Palestinian control, which has the possibility of a two state solution. A plan that Biden says he supports.
Either way, Israel is a sovereign country with it's own hopes and ambitions. Any American president has only limited ability to impact their decisions. This election is a choice between using our little influence to push towards a two state solution or push towards full Israeli control of Palestinian territory.
lol okay. every time people say they don't know how someone gets 270 electoral college votes, it makes me ask if they know how electoral college votes are allocated. so i'll ask you: how do candidates earn electoral college votes?
i also think it's telling that you are condescending and dismissive toward your interlocutors, dredging out red herrings and smoke screens instead of dealing with what they actually said, and relying heavily on appeals to ridicule.
even if i were convinced you were engaging in good faith, i'm not convinced you could see past the bad faith propaganda you're regurgitating.
all that aside, no party owns the votes of any voter. it is the responsibility of the candidates to earn votes. voters are making it clear that they want the genocide to be stopped, and some candidates are making it clear they aren't going to do that, while others are making it a centerpiece of their campaigns.
100% astroturfing
Astroturfing is when someone is loudly disagreeing with me
Yup. These people honestly think… or, “honestly” think- that not voting is going to actually do something.
Now we have two scenarios to address here:
One:
They actually think in good-faith, that they are going to make a change. To emphasize- they actually think that doing nothing will cause something to happen. Which means… they are entirely unaware that someone will be elected with or without their help.
And-
Two:
They know damn well that a non-vote will help Trump and that is why they are here. There is clearly more evidence to support this being the case as you’ll never see them on any post critical of Trump, suggesting that people not vote for him. Nor do you see them arguing that Trump wouldn’t be a worse choice. Nope. They’re dead silent on the issue.
They don’t need to actively support Trump, or suggest people vote for him here as they know there are very few supporters of his on lemmy.
However, they DO know that conservatives show up to the booths to vote. In DROVES. All they need is to convince a small amount of people to stay home, and their boy wins the White House.
One of these two are correct. The problem is that everyone loses either way- and they don’t care.
I'd argue the people hiring ethno-thugs to beat teens protesting the genocide are the ones on the wrong side of history, but I guess we'll see. Biden isn't going to win, that's what you get when you ordain the guy who came in 5th in the first 3 states the only allowable candidate for two primaries. You "I hate Trump more than anything" Bidencrats are EXACTLY why he's coming back and you don't even see it.
"Churchill is a war criminal and a drunk, we're better off appeasing Hitler!" - you as a Brit in the 30's
"Our alliance with Germany is paramount and who's to say anyone has even been genocided?" -- you as an Italian in the 30's
You're really bad at this, you know?
You're literally helping elect a fascist leader. And you don't have a defense, because you're doing it on purpose, which is also why can't even mention it.
You're literally covering for one yourself
if you vote for biden, you are voting for genocide
that seems kind of objectively true to me
you don't pick and choose which policies your candidate's vote goes towards it counts for all of them
If you vote for Biden, you are voting to limit Israel's genocidal warfare.
Lmao yes that is how I'd describe him obstructing the ICCs prosecution of it
I could obstruct the ICC with a wet paper bag ;)
But that's business as usual- he's still the only thing limiting Israel’s genocidal warfare, not that you really care about Palestinian lives or anything.
Why does anyone believe he's doing anything to limit jack shit? Every time someone so much as bats an eye at Israel he puts out a statement condemning antisemitism
Do you know what 'limit' means? I'm curious how you're struggling with this concept.
So that's a 'no' on understanding the concept of 'limit'... you're a fascinating specimen!
Unfortunately for you Israel has been committing genocide against the Palestinians since the 1948 Israeli/Arab war, and the United states has supported them since then. I guess if you want to pretend this is something new and Biden is the cause of The Genocide™ so you can feel better about yourself without actually making a difference then good for you. I applaud your mental gymnastics.
They are entirely unaware that Palestine even existed prior to October 7th.
me:
voting for a party enabling genocide is voting in support of genocide
you:
Unfortunately for you Israel has been committing genocide against the Palestinians since the 1948 Israeli/Arab war, and the United states has supported them since then. I guess if you want to pretend this is something new and Biden is the cause of The Genocide™ so you can feel better about yourself without actually making a difference then good for you.
also you:
I applaud your mental gymnastics.
You:
refraining from using my vote, so that Trump will win is the moral and reasonable course of action to help Palestinians, despite Trump being an insane fascist who's also Putin's little bitch
This person is completely fine to punish America if they don’t get their way. They are aware of the damage Trump will do to the LGBTQ+, to women’s rights, to education, to PALESTINE…. but they clearly don’t care.
If they can’t get their single issue addressed- they are willing to ruin an entire country so that they can stand in the wreckage and say
“I told you this would happen if you didn’t listen to me.”
palestinians are screwed either way, friend
Refraining from using your voice to say 'I don't want to vote for genocide, actually'
You:
if you vote for biden, you are voting for genocide
Me:
If you're a human being that exists in America you have supported genocide in some capacity, and voting for Biden doesn't mean you support it anymore than if you do not vote, voting 3rd party, or voting for Trump. America needs to fix its relationship with Israel and Palestine, but Joe Biden is no more culpable for what's happening in Gaza than any president before him, and he's light years ahead of the other main party candidate in his support for Palestinians. Your ability to place that blame solely on Joe Biden and people who support him involves an impressive level of mental gymnastics.
Hope that clears it up for you. If you mean something else I'd love to hear it.
If you're a human being that exists in America you have supported genocide in some capacity
America was founded on the genocide of native Americans, this is objectively true
Of course acknowledging that has always been a problem for Americans, but who knew stopping themselves from doing it again would be such a hard sell
Bazinga, got 'em
voting for Biden doesn't mean you support it anymore than if you do not vote
cool, but that's not what i said
i said voting for biden is voting in support of genocide
you might hate genocide, but objectively, voting for a candidate aggressively enabling genocide is voting in support of that genocide
the rest of your comment is just filler
Biden isn't aggressively supporting genocide, and voting for Biden isn't supporting genocide.
The rest of your comment is inane prattle.
i'd say sanctioning the icc for attempting to stop said genocide is being pretty aggressive about it, as is continuing to block any un-led action, as is continuing to send arms
which do you disagree with?
- biden is supporting genocide
- voting for a hypothetical candidate supporting genocide is voting in support of genocide
The rest of your comment is inane prattle.
i know you wanted to do the ol' switcheroo but it doesn't really work when you responded to everything in my comment
i know you wanted to do the ol' switcheroo but it doesn't really work when you responded to everything in my comment
Mea culpa.
Biden is not supporting The Genocide™ that people started paying attention to once it became a trendy thing to talk about on Tiktok, The Genocide™ that you seem to be concerned with. The Genocide™ that benefits Netanyahu and Putin.
By virtue of being an American citizen Biden is culpable for the slow burn genocide that Palestinians have been subject to since 1948ish. The same genocide that you are also culpable of and are equally in support of.
Most of Biden's actions are political theater to not alienate Jewish voters and the powerful AIPAC. A group that he desperately needs to win reelection because progressives don't reliably vote.
The ICC has never stopped a genocide in its entire existence, so to say that sanctioning the ICC is aggressively supporting The Genocide™ is just not true. The ICC could send out charges and arrest warrants for every politician in Israel without America ever lifting a finger and it would have absolutely no impact on The Genocide™, positive or negative.
UN action is equally useless, so whatever action you think would have stopped The Genocide™ that Biden blocked it wouldn't have done shit.
Israel and Netanyahu have made it clear that they will continue the invasion into Gaza with or without US military support, so any arms we may have given Israel have no impact on their willingness to wage war.
What other specious evidence of aggressive support do you have?
As a last point, voting for a candidate doesn't mean you support all of that candidates actions or views. That's why Republicans do so well; Republican voters have one or two issues they agree with passionately (immigration, gun control, abortion restrictions, etc.) and vote enthusiastically for the candidate that supports their thing regardless of the candidates other positions.
On the other hand progressives/leftists/whatever pick a hill to die on, and if a candidate disagrees with them a little bit on that issue they will refuse to vote for the candidate regardless of how many other positions they agree on.
The genocide debate is a perfect example; people like you have convinced yourself that Biden supports genocide so you refuse to vote for him because you disagree about that one point. No matter what other points you may agree on, or how much more Trump supports genocide and other positions you disagree with, people like you refuse to vote for Biden and in the end Trump gets elected. Real take my ball and go home energy.
Biden is not supporting The Genocide™ that people started paying attention to once it became a trendy thing to talk about on Tiktok
It became "trendy" more or less immediately at the point that it started happening.
The ICC has never stopped a genocide in its entire existence
What genocide has the US stopped since the creation of the ICC?
If you can't name one, then literally anything Biden could do up to and including nuking Palestine "wouldn't have made a difference anyway."
UN action is equally useless
UN action is useless because of veto powers. Whatever the UN wants to do, somebody will veto it.
In this instance, the person vetoing that action is Biden.
Israel and Netanyahu have made it clear that they will continue the invasion into Gaza with or without US military support, so any arms we may have given Israel have no impact on their willingness to wage war.
I mean I agree with this, but why would you continue to send arms once they've demonstrated what they'll be used for unless you kind of don't care about it?
What other specious evidence of aggressive support do you have?
If you can honestly look at the sum total of Biden's actions and go "nah he's trying his best to stop it" then there's not much point in continuing this discussion, since we're essentially in two different realities at this point.
As a last point, voting for a candidate doesn't mean you support all of that candidates actions or views.
Again, you might hate genocide, but objectively, voting for a candidate aggressively enabling genocide is voting in support of that genocide
If somebody hates racism, but gets tricked into voting for Trump by Black Voices for Trump, would you say they're voting in support of racism or not?
you disagree about that one point
It's almost comical that you can be so flippant about genocide. "It's just one genocide guys, come on."
That's why Republicans do so well; Republican voters have one or two issues they agree with passionately
So you're arguing it's good to be a single issue voter?
On the other hand progressives/leftists/whatever pick a hill to die on
So you're arguing it's bad to be a single issue voter?
They are two different kinds of single issue voters.
Republican single issue voters get their get their candidate elected by strongly supporting them because of a single issue.
Progressives also help get the Republican candidate elected by refusing to vote for Biden because they strongly oppose one issue.
The neat part is the progressive is helping the Republican get elected who is usually even farther off the issue than the Democratic candidate.
But hey, the ONLY THING THAT MATTERS IS THE GENOCIDE™. If you don't vote for Biden The Genocide™ will stop instantly and you'll be guilt free because you didn't vote for it. But at the same time you won't have to feel guilt for any of the bad shit that comes with a Trump presidency for reasons.
If somebody hates racism, but gets tricked into voting for Trump by Black Voices for Trump, would you say they're voting in support of racism or not?
I can't say what they are voting in support of regardless of how they vote. That was painfully clear. I'll say it explicitly: voting for a candidate doesn't mean you support any of the candidates positions. It just means more of their positions align with yours than the other candidate.
Do you think neo-nazis that want the death penalty for race mixing support Trump's brand of racism? Or do you think they're voting for Trump because they know he's closer to what they want than Biden and they know their 3rd party candidate has no shot of ever getting elected?
The UN will save them!
Tell that to the Rohingya.
Do you know who the candidates are? Who the other guy is?
The person whos promised to remove all climate actions and regulations on day one. A guy who is taking dick from Putin every night while screaming "harder daddy". A drooling megalomaniacal diaper wearing fascist, who supports Putin and Netanyahu.
You're not voting for genocide. You're not even voting for Biden. You're voting against Trump.
If you're an American with the right to vote and you don't vote Biden, you are directly supporting Trump, Putin, Netanyahu and other far-right leaders.
Have you ever heard of the trolley problem? You're online, so you should have. Do you know what's never the answer to those problems? "I walk away but also take no responsibility for allowing more people to die." Sorry, not an option. The lesson is that inaction is a choice with consequences.
The trolly problem conceptualized a situation where there is no one on train who can pull the breaks
Bidens on the train. He could pull the breaks.
Yes, us enabling the DNC's Price Is Right strategy of always being $1 better than the GOP, and not one iota better, only enables their worst instincts, which doesn't actually electorally serve them to begin with, even.
So full of shit
Help! Your logic! It overwhelms!
Voting for Biden without trying to tell him he needs to stop supporting genocide will likely still result in him losing.
Weird how you didn't deny being a Russian instigator stoking division among progressives.
Because it's both unfalsifiable and deeply unserious
Yeah, sure. That's the reason.
It's just completely out of the realm of possibility to prove that you're not a Russian troll. /megasarcasm
Where'd you live?
Does it concern you a little bit, though, that I'm really American and there might be a lot more who think like me?
Fine, assume I'm a Russian troll if you want, but it'd be smart to at least pretend that there's a small possibility of there being a low turn out, and you should have a plan on how to address that.
The idea of actually caring that 2.3 million people are on the brink of starvation is so foreign to you that you have to conjure fantasies of Russian troll farms targeting Lemmy to explain away complaints.
That doesn't even make any sense.
No wonder you're working in a troll factory with that sort of cognitive capacity.
Why do you want Trump to win?
What do you mean that doesn't make sense?
Biden's approval is trash no matter what i'm doing here. There are voters that are already going to sit this out that need convincing; either you need to convince them to show up anyway (hold their nose to genocide to prevent more genocide), or you need to convince Biden that his position on genocide is a losing one (it looks like it already is)
In 2016 Hilary lost because voters didn't think the establishment gave a shit about their concerns, if you don't think that's a risk again all hope is lost.
Biden's approval is trash no matter what i'm doing here
Weird then how you keep doing something you know is completely futile for, say, >8 hours a day.
What are the conditions like in those troll farms?
Bet you would love living in a civilised country like me. Too bad. Keep pushing that garbage.
You know you can't say the thing outloud. You know you're very strongly implying to "not vote for Biden until he fixes Gaza conflict", which is ridiculous, and definitely a dumb man's idea on how to try to manipulate people into not voting for Biden.
Thus, the joke about the cognitive capacity. Too bad you can't recognise how stupid you are yourself.
Why is it that when I point to the reality of the situation, suddenly I'm a troll?
Bidens approval is at 38% right now, how many votes do you think that equates to?
I don't know what kind of campaign could make up that kind of deficit without a total about face.
Easy buddy. Take a breath. In...Out...In...Out...
I did that. I'm also going to vote against more genocide, done not just abroad but at home.
In the voting booth, there is no "no genocide" button. Your choices come down to "more genocide" and "less genocide", and you get to push towards one outcome or the other.
Personally, I'm going to take a brave stance against "more genocide", but if your principles keep you from engaging with the real options, well.
I'm sure the people who die who wouldn't have otherwise will forgive you.
Did you also tell a bunch of people quite loudly that you'll vote for him anyway?
Idk seems like you've effectively said 'if you do this again I'll be really upset, but ILL DO NOTHING IF YOU KEEP DOING IT'
from where I am a lot of people have been saying that second part REALLY LOUDLY but barely whispering the first part
I'm not worried about what I do in the voting booth, I'm worried about the 1.3% margin Biden won by in 2020