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Some Fromsoft fans sound like fucking cult members I swear to god. Like somehow adjusting the difficulty of the game takes away from the purity of the experience or some shit or take away from the satisfaction of progression. Ohh no it'll break the delicate balance oh god.
Buddy, I just wanna vibe with the atmosphere and the scenery sometimes instead of studying the blade or whatever the fuck. It's a video game, relax.
I can't even talk to my friends about Fromsoft games because of shit like this, no "git gud" isn't a valid response to criticism made in good faith.
Long time fromsoft player and the git gud bullshit annoys the hell out of me.
It's just elitist, gatekeeping garbage. And this is coming from someone who puts my summon sign down regularly to help people.
For games built with and to some degree around cooperative gameplay, people aren't very good at being helpful to each other in discussions about the games.
That's why I don't participate in any of the online communities and just play with no headset. I'll help people defeat bosses because I have a great time doing it. Outside of that I find the community kinda off putting.
Edited to add - not all folks in the fromsoft communities are elitist, some are actually very kind, but there's just enough weird elitism that I find it to be unpleasant.
Yeah same, I think it's just that the most vocal people are assholes
Buddy, I just wanna vibe with the atmosphere and the scenery sometimes instead of studying the blade or whatever the fuck. It's a video game, relax.
I think this might be the disconnect. If you just vibed with the scenary there isn't much to the games. You could run through the whole game in a few hours. I think Elden Ring only has four or five required boss fights and afaik every other fight is optional and you could run past all the enemies if you want to.
Much of the game - story, characters, and lore - only comes out if you spend a lot of time getting your ass kicked. Most of the game's background comes from random item drops you'd most likely miss if you got through every fight on the first try. There's a lot of information tied up in how enemies fight - similar enemies from different factions have subtly different equipment and weild different spells. Spell mechanics tie in to story stuff.
The other thing is - it's not easy to make the game easier. Most of the fighting relies on learning enemy movesets and timing. If you make the enemies deal %5 of their normal damage you're still not going to win if you can't figure out when you have openings to land hits. You'll end up being knocked down, staggered, afflicted with statuses, and all the rest of it. You could slow down the attack animations, but they'd look goofy af and become even harder to read.
As much as people scoff these games are carefully crafted works of art. There is wiggle room to make them "easier", but only so much due to the nature of the gameplay.
Additionally, the Elden Ring does have many mechanics - coop especially, to make it much more approachable to players who have struggled with previous entries in the series. I rarely seem people who complain about people who complain about the difficulty of the game discuss or engage with these systems.
Finally, i think there's a serious disconnect in the nature of the dark souls gameplay loop. You're supposed to die a whole lot. Every time you fight thrugh an area you have a chance for drops, you gain xp, and if you're paying attention you're figuring out the best path through the area in hopes of getting further next time. That process - advancing, learning, getting xp, dying, and repeating, is the core gameplay loop. If you don't enjoy that you likely won't have fun with the game.
I think a great deal of bad faith has accumulated - many people complaining about "git gud" don't seem to actually be interested in the game, only using it as a whipping boy for complaints about games gatekeeping difficulty. But dark souls and elden ring are generally the only games in the vast sea of available games discussed in this manner. It's these particular games that are essentially their own niche genre that peopke continue to be mad about over a decade after Dark Souls, despite each subsequent game having more features to make the games accessible to more people.
You're supposed to die a whole lot. Every time you fight thrugh an area you have a chance for drops, you gain xp, and if you're paying attention you're figuring out the best path through the area in hopes of getting further next time. That process - advancing, learning, getting xp, dying, and repeating, is the core gameplay loop. If you don't enjoy that you likely won't have fun with the game.
Oh, it's secretly a roguelike that's why it sucks. That makes sense, thanks.
Sort of? It's not really a roguelike because you keep your character when you die and at most you'll lose the experience points you gained since the last checkpoint. Checkpoints are usually between 5-20 minutes apart, with the time between them really heavily dependent on player skill and game knowledge. On my first playthrough one section of maybe 200m took me several hours of fighting through it over and over again until I cleared it. This playthough took me five minutes bc I had much much better game knowledge and understood how all the systems worked. And I cleared it in five minutes using an archery build that isn't really supported by the game, and I did a lot of screwing around.
Also this isn't a secret it's the absolute core of the entire genre. Almost all soulslike games pit you against a big gnarly boss at the absolute start of the game that will beat the crap out of you many times specifically as a tutorial on how the game loop works. That boss is there to kill you so you know that death isn't a failure state or you "losing the game", it's just a normal part of gameplay. Ds1 has asylum demon, i don't recall is dsii has one, dsiii has iyudex gundyr, sekiro has that guy in the field, elder ring has the grafted scion. They're all there right from the start of the game to kill you so you learn that death is at most a temporary setback and a chance to regroup and test new ideas. It's the first thing the genre tries to teach you.
I am a Souls fan and I agree with most of everything you say. I am also the type who plays games on the hard difficulty settings and installs mods to make it even harder. I like being challenged and forced to learn and adapt and find new ways to use the mechanics provided by the game in order to succeed. When I was younger and had more spare time I did SL1 challenge runs in the Souls games, in DS3 I got some 3/4 through all the bosses before I got a job and just didn't have the time and energy to perfect boss patterns anymore. It was very fun, my favorite bit was fighting the dope pope and changing gear during his phase switch. I found short rolls more favorable in his 1st phase as they landed me in perfect position for a punish after baiting his jumping lunge combo and long rolls more reliable during the 2nd to not get caught by the double.
However, my take on this particular subject is that I am a radical difficulty anarchist and people should be allowed to enjoy single player games in whatever ways they deem personally fun, even if it goes against the intended experience and core ideas of the game. If there was an option that allowed you to just iddqd your way through Fromsoft games or any other game where difficulty is part of the core game design, then I uncritically support their freedom to pick it and find fun in the game in their own way, even if it's just vibing and taking in the scenery without engaging with the intended process. The only truly wrong way to play a single player game is if you are not having fun.
I have played other games where hardship is an intended part of the experience yet they provide difficulty settings that let you fuck all that noise and just brute-force your way through the game if you so desire. They have a description that explains you will not get the intended experience the game was meant to convey, but they empower you to disregard it and engage the game on your own terms. I don't think the soulslike niche is in any way different or above such features and I fully support a god mode toggle that says "Hey, we worked hard to create a finely balanced gameplay loop that encourages learning from your mistakes and mastering the mechanics. We strongly believe you will get the most out of our game by giving it a chance and persevering, but if you truly do not care about that turn this on to enable chill vibes mode".
God mode is the only option I can easily puzzle out working for people who are unable to use existing mechanics.
Like if the character takes reduced damage but the player cannot dodge, parry, maintain stamina while blocking, or otherwise avoid or mitigate attacks, they're going to spend most of their time knocked down or staggered.
Increasing player damage would be redundant as most weapons can already be made to do enormous amounts of damage to enemies and bosses using existing systems.
You could increase xp gain I guess but you can already grind out xp relatively quickly.
The game already has auto-targetting, auto-aiming attacks, plenty of aoes of various kinds.
I don't often see people specifying what accomodations they need to play the game. Like people who ask for a generic "difficulty mode" are treating it like an fps game or arpg game where you can fiddle with player health and damage numbers and make the game relatively straightforward. Idk how you can apply that kind of trivially easy "difficulty mode", just applying some modifiers to damage and defense numbers, to all of the things going on in souls games - poise, status effects, spacing, dodging, parry, target priority, punishing attacks.
That's the part where I think a real disconnect has crept in. Like with DnD you can give the player's +10 to all roll and they mostly can't lose. With fps games you can simply make the player not die when they lose all their health, and have enemies shoot infrequently and miss a lot. With soulslikes enemies deal damage to whatever they hit during their attack animation. Their aim doesn't work the same way it does in an fps - they start the animation and if you're in the way during the animation you take damage. There isn't really rng the way you'd get it in D&D. Under the same conditions every action has the same result.
Giving players more ammo like you do in lower difficulties on fps and tps games doesn't translate as the player already roughly has control over their resources through levelling up, managing flashs, and consumables. And all your resources are restocked whenever you die or reach the next checkpoint. And then on top of that ER has several mechanics to keep you topped off while exploring, and if you run low you can almost always return to the last checkpoint to top off and start that segment over.
Giving people "more powerful" weapons "earlier" doesn't fit bc you have access to almost all weapon types at the start of the game through different classes, merchants, and drops. And there aren't really more or less powerful weapons, rather weapons determine your moveset and playstyle with most players picking something that feels good to them. As all weapons can be levelled up and most can have their special abilities changed there isn't any clear equivalent to giving someone the rocket launcher a few levels early.
When people say they want an "easy mode" I don't understand what they want. They game is "easy" if you accept that going through the same areas over and over until you win is the core gameplay loop and you make use of all the tools you have.
Like if you're R/G colorblind, or need visual cues for audio due to impaired hearing, I get that. But in the context of a souls game what do people mean by easy? It's not an fps or arpg where enemies are just a bundle of hp that you click on until they die. If you have god mode you can ignore all game mechanics and click the enemy until they die. But short of god mode no amount of fiddling with stats is going to get someone past Malekith or Radhann.
Maybe some kind of time-dilation thing where you can slow the game down dramatically?
There's a saying "a game for everyone is a game for no one" and I think at some point the souls hater crowd needs to sit down and chew on the idea that soulslike games have specific features that make them different from other genres of games and that the "story mode" or easy mode or whatever that can be relatively easily implemented in to crpgs, arpgs, fps, or tps games cannot easily be translated to souls games due to differences in core gameplay mechanics.
The best analogy I can come up with would be sim games. You can set all the conditions to optimal and make enemy jets fly in a straight, level line, you can turn off damage to your aircraft and fuel, but at some point the player does need to know how to fly the simulated aircraft. And if they cannot do that they should consider other genres than simulation.
Maybe I'm just overthinking this. I'm trying to work this out from "how do you make the game "easier" and still have a souls game. Maybe the folks who want an "easy" mode don't care and just want to toodle around in god mode in a game that would otherwise be totally unenjoyable for them.
The idea that any player should be able to play any game however they want, though; hard disagree. Single player games are not sandboxes. God mode is fine, but like, idk, i see the idea a lot that players should be able to use whatever weapons or skills or whatever they want and everything should be equally, uniformly viable for all gameplay. Lots of talk about "power fantasy" and "there's no wrong way to play". That's not a good attitude to approach games with. Do whatever you want within the limits of the engine, but if you're trying to play the game in ways it was not made to be played then you're making a decision to do so. I'm seeing this a lot with Helldivers, with people complaining that the game requires them to take a variety of weapons to deal with different kinds of enemies instead of taking whatever they think looks cool and having every weapon be equally effective in every situation. And there's also a great many players refusing to learn basic game systems and complaining that the game is too hard because they don't understand how to use those systems.
When a person selects a game to play they should be ready to invest a certain amount of time learning the game's rules and systems, and they should engage with the game in good faith. That means accepting the goals of the game - fps games are about shooting things, arpgs are about character builds and clicking monsters, puzzle games are about solving puzzles, simulation games are about simulating systems, platformers are about jumping between platforms - and engaging with the games on those terms.
Elden ring isn't a walking simulator, it's not a ttrpg adapted in to a crpg, it's not a conventional arpg, it's not a zelda game or a metroidvania. Soulslike games are their own thing. If you want to vibe and enjoy the scenary, just walk around and look at things, you're asking the devs to give you options to play an entirely different genre and style of game. All the scenery and vibes are in a soulslike game to give substance and flavor to the core of fighting from one bonfire to the next bonfire. Putting in options to completely ignore that and just wander around isn't a mode to make it easier to play dark souls, it"s a mode for not playing dark souls. "I want to be able to engage with the combat in a way that is within the limits of my abilities" is reasonable. "I want to play a walking simulator and i want options to make ds or er a walking simulator" is unreasonable. If someone feels they cannot enjoy the game they should not buy it, and instead find a game in a genre they enjoy.
I do think you are overthinking it a little and worrying too much about the Souls experience vs what some people who could potentially derive some form of enjoyment from the series that you and I might not be able to grok actually want. Dodge iframes, parry windows, poise, stamina, stagger, status effects, all of these are mathematical variables inside the game that can be easily controlled on the fly with global difficulty modifiers. More iframes to dodges makes one able to avoid attacks with less precision on their read and timing. Longer recovery times between enemy patterns can allow for greedy hits that would otherwise get punished which also means more damage on the enemy, less time it is alive and less time for you to make mistakes. Less stamina drain from attacks combined with more forgiving regen can make it easier to simply stand with your guard up and endure. Less incoming damage and more poise means that you can make more favorable trades of blows. Flasks with more shots and more healing mean that you can make more mistakes or trades between fires. All of these things add up to allow for more mistakes, less precision, less grind, less risk for more reward, less mastery. They can make the difference between dying 20+ times between bonfires and dying 3 times, which for some people takes the game from unplayable frustration to fun dark fantasy romp.
As you said yourself, you can use the systems to deal disgusting amounts of damage, or become disgustingly tanky and laugh in the face of your enemies, as a friend of mine did after getting real tired of some of Elden Ring's shit, but it requires mastery of the systems and the patience to achieve it. I know all the ways to make it easier. Some people don't want to deal with that noise. A difficulty modifier that allows them to mess with the numbers on the fly achieves the same effect in a way that is more in line with the amount of effort they are willing to invest in the game. And an "I really don't want to deal with this shit" godmode toggle covers the edge cases that maybe mathematics alone is not able to overcome. It's anathema to the game's design and intended way of engaging with it, yes, but literally just let people have fun in wrong and bad ways, in a singleplayer game it's not hurting anything other than their own experience. They may not want Souls but they might be on board with something Souls can made into via easy to implement difficulty options.
I don't think that any game should be designed from the ground-up with the notion that it can be played in any way you wish. If all weapons and skills are equally viable then there are no decisions to make and nothing ultimately matters. Power fantasies where you can do anything and be anyone and use whatever you wish are a bad design paradigm that leads to shallow and empty games. Absolutely agreed on this one. Ideally, games should have a clear idea of who they are aimed at and be built around delivering that experience rather than being an identity-less one size fits all product that is made to maximize mass appeal. Hell, most of the games I enjoy are niche products. I also completely agree with you that multiplayer games should be approached in good faith and that you should be expected to learn the basic systems of the game and hone them. If I am playing Helldivers and I am matched with someone who repeatedly shows that they are unwilling to engage with the game and respect its fundamentals, then I want to kick them from my squad. Especially if we are playing on the higher difficulties and they are complaining about game balance being supposedly bad rather than putting in the effort to learn the fundamentals and improve their gameplay before tackling harder difficulties.
I also don't think any developer should be expected to carefully tailor and curate every difficulty setting to the point that they are essentially making several different games either. That is indeed unreasonable. Keep it to easily tweaked variables and cheat code equivalents and if that isn't enough, then, yes, people should just find a different game to play. Make it clear what is the setting for the "proper" experience and be transparent about the scope and limitations of adjusting the difficulty. Ideally, every game should offer a demo that allows you to see what you are getting into and if the available scope of experience customization is enough to cover your needs.
What I believe is that how individuals choose to engage with singleplayer games is entirely up to them and I respect the fact that they might look for different types of experiences than I do. If these individuals can be provided with more choices to tweak their experience to their liking, that require low development effort and are put in after the game is designed around its intended gameplay loop and experience, then just do it and let them have their fun in peace however wrong it might be. Let people give themselves 99 flasks that heal them to full and and reduce the damage they take while increasing their own and boosting their stamina regen and even godmode themselves and play Ruined Medieval Dark Fantasy Walking Simulator instead of Elden Ring, idgaf, it's their money and their time. Hopefully they will one day think "maybe I should try the actual intended experience" and play the real Souls but if they don't want to that's also fine.
In conclusion my stance on difficulty in singleplayer games is:
- make games with a clear intention and intended difficulty and experience
- give the people a big difficulty tab in the settings menu where they can tweak various easy to expose parameters to their liking as well as godmode/infinite consumables/whatever buttons that do what cheat codes used to in old games. You do not have to completely redesign the game from the ground up for easy mode and no one should seriously expect this from any developer, just offer a bunch of tweaks that may be cumulatively effective in making the game more approachable to some people who are put off by the default difficulty
- clearly point out what are the intended parameters and what kind of experience the game is meant to convey while making it clear that tweaking the values will detract from how the game as art is meant to be engaged with
- let people tweak the values to have their incomprehensible terrible fun if they so desire, idk maybe someone really likes sightseeing around the maps in Elden Ring for whatever reason, I think I remember a twitter post by someone who just really liked the world and wanted to walk around and vibe so it might just work for some folks and if it's low hanging fruit development wise why not do it
There's a saying "a game for everyone is a game for no one" and I think at some point the souls hater crowd needs to sit down and chew on the idea that soulslike games have specific features that make them different from other genres of games and that the "story mode" or easy mode or whatever that can be relatively easily implemented in to crpgs, arpgs, fps, or tps games cannot easily be translated to souls games due to differences in core gameplay mechanics.
watch more jim stephanie sterling and deprogram yourself from gamer pride brain
sorry thats hostile. you don't have gamer pride brain obviously, you're using actual arguments and stuff and care about it for actually good reasons. just is hard with discourse happening so many times in different places and times
From my experience, the only purpose of Fromsoft games is the difficulty, because the lore is boring. Could never connect with the combat, and the story was "dark fantasy, but maybe lovecraftian????".
It's really not difficult the way people think it is, especially Elden Ring. If you want to solo the game using a very specialized build, yeah. But you can also just pick stuff you like and guard counter or turtle or magic spam through the entire game while summoning friends and being summoned to help people. You can goof off, do sub-optimal builds, try wacky stuff, and fuck around a lot. If you don't like your build re-specing in er is fairly straightforward. Idk, i think "souls games are difficult" has been built up to mythological levels to the point where people either don't try to play Elden Ring at all, or try to play, get killed by the Tree Sentinel a few times, then throw their hands up in frustration without engaging with all the systems the game gives you right from the start.
ER really has been made much friendlier and more approachable and easier to get in to than prior games. Summoning is much easier and more reliable. Re-speccing is much easier and available from relatively early in the game. Any time you're stuck at a boss you can go somewhere else and try something else.
But yeah, the combat is 99.9% of the game, so if you don't groove with it then it's not the game for you.
As for the lore - what I really like about the Dark Souls story is that it's very much about persevering in the face of adversity. It's Absurdist to it's core, and the story and game mechanics are deeply tied together. The Dark Souls world is trapped in stasis. Gwyn and his heirs, fearing the age of dark, keep linking the fire over and over again to re-boot the age of fire. And the result is that every cycle is the same, but worse. The world gets thinner and thinner. Time and space break down dragging disparate places together until they're all stacked atop the kiln of the first flame. As long as this miserable cycle persists there's no future for the workld and no hope. The misery will go on forever, the world will become more and more hollow until nothing is left but the thinnest shell and the faintest ember.
This is directly reflected in gameplay. There is no way to lose Dark Souls. The game has no fail condition. As long as you keep trying, keep bashing your head against a cruel world that hates you without seeing you, you cannot fail. Your enemies are hollow, their humanity scooped out by overwhelming despair and indifference. They fight you out of a cold, reflexive hatred of your stubbornness and determination to press on long after there's any reason to do so. This is the core of Existentialism and Absurdism; choosing to live, grow, and change after recognizing that there's no meaning in the world.
The multiplayer reflects this, too. As Miyazaki said, the cooperative summoning was inspired by a situation where strangers were helping each other get their cars un-stuck in a bad snow. They were strangers, owing each other nothing, never seeing each other again, but they chose to cooperate and aid each other in that moment.
The pvp reflects this. People will invade your world to try to harm you, but some people will leap to your aid. There's predatory violence, but also virtuous defenders. No matter how desolate and empty the world feels there are always people nearby who will lend you a hand in even the worst circumstances.
The way you learn about the story also ties in to these themes. When you first travel through the world it seems like a miserable, empty wasteland. It's only by exploring and gathering relics and rubbish from the past that you can slowly piece together what happened. You're not a great hero. The age of heroes was long ago, and you're an archeologist exploring it's wreckage. You learn about their hopes and dreams, and their inevitable fall and failure. You take up their rusted arms, polish them until they shine anew. You clean the dust from crests and sigils that long ago lost all meaning and carry them with renewed purpose. You come to empathize with gods and monsters that proved to be pathetically mortal in the end.
And you just keep going. You keep going after you get burned by the pot throwers just outside firelink, when you get crushed by the charred and burned out shells of Gwyn's silver knights, when you're invaded by sadistic killers, when you finally drag your poisoned body to the bottom of blight town and the top of the gargloy's belfry. You keep going through the death traps of Sen's fortress. You keep going when you encounter the city of the gods and it's false pretense of glory. You just keep going, through all the adversity and setbacks, because you want to keep going.
You can give up at any time. You can turn the game off. You can grow frustrated and bored. That's when the player goes hollow. There's no way to lose the game, except to turn it off.
And I connect with that very deeply because that has been my entire life. I have very severe, untreatable depression that has made more of my life miserable than not. The only reason I keep going is that I choose to keep going. Absurdism and Existentialism are the core of my ethos; there is no meaning accept what you yourself create.
Dark Souls is a deeply, achingly humanistic game. It says, very plainly, that to exist is to suffer. And it also says that there is always hope, always comradery, always beauty, amidst that suffering. The conclusion of the story, the "good ending" in Dark Souls III, isn't restoring the bourgeis status quo or installing a monarchy or defeating the minority and communist coded enemies. It's holding hands with someone who is just as scared and uncertain as you are and accepting your mortality. Two strangers watching the last rays of the last sunset, wondering what will happen next.
Elden Ring doesn't hit nearly as hard, but there's still a good story about the reckless pursuit of power, the horrors of war, agency in the face of systemic oppression, racism and intersectionality. I could go on for hours, but i need to wrap this up and hit enter.
Yeah but only some people can actually experience the story this way. Imagine being a disabled person who can't beat the game at all because you're just not quite able to have the manual dexterity to manage your weapons and time dodging. If it's dozens of times more difficult to persevere, even the most stalwart spirits would just give up and do something more fun eventually, and if the game itself refuses to give any aid, it shows an entirely different message to that player. Without proper accessibility options this messaging and story becomes sour rather than beautiful towards those who are disabled. It says they should be able to continue going without anyone helping them at all, that their extraneous suffering is necessary or inevitable. Rather than being shown a trek against adversity with constant adversity and triumph over that adversity, they're just spat on by the game and told they're weak and... by extension, with the rest of the philosophical overtone of the game, specifically combined with the individualistic perspective of refusing to have difficulty choices, shouldn't even exist because they can't handle the suffering of it. It's just the same blank wall of indifference and outright malice disabled people experience all the time everywhere else.
Thank you for pushing me on this. I've been wrestling with it all night, and I think in the last analysis I'm just afraid of change. Dark Souls has been one of the most important works of art in my life. The grim, determined, brutal optimism of the series kept me alive in the throes of utmost depression, gave me an experience of struggling with adversity that translated to the worst parts of my struggle to survive severe mental illness. I'm afraid that there's something delicate about it, and if it changes too much it'll break. But you're right - That's inside me, and my inflexibility. I should find more compassion for others, as well as more faith in the Fromsoft team to be better than they are and strive to overcome their own limits and setbacks. f
thank you so much for listening. And I really dont want to take away from what you took away from the story- I think perseverance is a virtue and there is a lot of meaning in holding onto hope despite it being . Stubbornness can be based asf. I think the main difference in my thinking is that my perspective is that perseverance is a collective thing; It's about finding resources and options available to you, and a lot of the time the most effective ones are other people. Like you've pointed out this is rather explicit in the game. You can summon others to help you and stuff. I think the only issue is that this help might not be enough alone for some players, and while it might seem cheap or devaluing to the hostility of the world to give them the option to make it easier, I think it fits into the theme of perserverance well. For perseverance as a message to be portrayed to the player, they have to have a chance of succeeding, and giving accessibility and easier options enables that for disabled people. From that perspective I think it would only take away from the hostility of the world if players enabled accessibility options needlessly on purpose. Which while I understand the concern about it, I feel like if someone is choosing to play a famously challenging game, them turning around making it trivial for themselves on purpose is a huge Skill Issue and means they probably wouldn't properly internalize the themes anyways.
Or in other words, perseverance is a communal effort and giving accessibility options could help players without access to the community for whatever reason to still receive that message
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there are literally hundreds of ways to make the game easier without entirely destroying the game. It might not be the Pure Souls Experience but to be quite honest the Pure Souls Experience is not particularly better or worse than any other properly designed gaming experience and if people want an easier-but-inspired-by-the Pure Souls Experience gamemode or game than that is completely reasonable
i understand you're coming from good faith but there are reasons people find the "git gud" attitude annoying and the fact that it even shows up in Hexbear of all places is one of the reasons why. It's a horrible, horrible response to anything, especially by itself. If all you can do is say it without even providing advice on HOW to git gud than you should probably not say it at all.
