You're viewing a single thread.
I'm of two minds:
- I find the 'cis' label offensive. That's my right.
- I find this guy offensive. That's also my right.
(If you want to know who says I don't get rights, look at the downvotes. They disagree with one of those. You pick)
It literally means "not trans" my dude. Do you get offended when people call you human?
Call me human to my face. See what happens.
... ... Human
:3
How dare you?!? Vergognga! Verfuckingognga!!
Hugs you stupid homo(sapien).
How dare you?!? Vergognga! Verfuckingognga!!
I think it's disingenuous to argue that is the only usage of it. Plenty of words have colloquial meanings. There's plenty of assholes out there who use it venemously. Like a racist saying "He's black" when they mean the n word. "Fuck off and die, cishet!"
There has been a lot of shit on Twitter and Tumblr outright calling for genocide of cis people. Forced sterilization. Saying that if you are a cis white male you inherently are a bad person. A rapist. Etc. Etc.
It's bullshit lashing out, and doesn't truly amount to anything. That said, it can wear on you to be vilified for what you were born as, for things you can't control.
Huh, imagine that.
It strikes me as particularly ridiculous when this is brought up, there usually are a lot of responses along the lines of "Well now you know what we've dealt with!" "Poor majority person is suddenly hurt when they're treated the same way they've been treating the rest of us" etc.
I don't think many people miss that point. But it's still a shitty thing to do, and it can feel like gaslighting attempts when reasonable people make responses like yours.
"Negro literally means black, do you get offended when people call you the color of your skin?" ... let's start the countdown to people falling over themselves to say it's not the same. It isn't the same, but the parallels should give you pause. Hopefully cause some thought.
I might take a while to respond to this since I'm at work and theres a lot to respond to, but unlike the other commenter who just lashed out, I actually intend on responding to this, it just will take a while
Does that mean that if enough of a minority of people use a neutral word with ill intent, other people should be careful of using that word? For instance, if a bunch of racists started using the word "black" venomously day and night for months, should everyone else start considering the word "black" to be a slur? What if it's a term that's otherwise used by scholars with ample consensus? And if there's no other other to refer to it, and by avoiding it, you cannot refer to the concept at all?
That sounds like you've described the euphemism treadmill, like how moron was a medical term before it was an insult.
Welcome to the minefields of communication and the euphemism treadmill.
I'm not saying we let the assholes win. Keep using it as the original meaning, offset those who would use the term otherwise.
I just wanted to add some important perspective as to how and why some people could view it as being used as a slur. Less "don't use this term", more "If someone gets offended when you use this term, don't be condescending to them about the literal definition, bear in mind the term is also used in very negative ways"
Those people are going to do the same thing regardless of what the word is. What you're asking for is just to put it on the euphemism treadmill
Oh, 100%. Shitty people will be shitty people, regardless of whatever words they use or targets they go after.
I'm not saying no one should use the term. I just wanted to offer some perspective on how it isn't as clear cut as a lot of people make it out to be, and there are legitimate reasons that a reasonable person might take offense to it.
For the record, Jordan Peterson is not a reasonable person. He's a drama stirring shithead attempting to project a very false sense of bravado.
"There has been a lot of shit on Twitter and Tumblr outright calling for genocide of cis people. Forced sterilization. Saying that if you are a cis white male you inherently are a bad person. A rapist. Etc. Etc"
Believe me I know how crazy people on twitter can get, and I've definitely seen those crazies in action. But they are going to act crazy towards their chosen scapegoat for their problems regardless of the word we've chosen to describe those people.
"It’s bullshit lashing out, and doesn’t truly amount to anything. That said, it can wear on you to be vilified for what you were born as, for things you can’t control."
I 100% understand and empathize with this and will not argue or counter it in any way. I mean no gaslighting and I apologize if it feels like what I said was heading in that direction.
On your last point: for a while Negro WAS the appropriate word to use, and now it's Black (or if you're American "African American") and while it isnt appropriate anymore, we have a word that is that fills its usecase. People dont Identify as Cis (and on that point most dont identify as trans), they identify as Male/Female/etc, and cis and trans are categories based on whether your identity matches your sex or not. As of right now, cis is the word we have for when it matches, we dont really have any other words in common parlance that describe that in 1 word, and further the extreme end of Tumblr and Twitter doesnt care which word we use when they dehumanize the percieved majority, they are going to continue being assholes to those they dont feel dont place on their oppression heirarchy regardless of the word we use
100% agree.
I'm not trying to stop anyone from using the term. Just trying to offer some perspective as to why it can mean more than the direct dictionary definition to some people.
Generally it doesn't matter, but it's something to keep in mind when someone takes the usage of the term negatively. Don't immediately assume they're taking offense because they're transphobes. Jordan Peterson is, but there's going to be a non-zero amount of people out there where their main exposure to the term "cis" is where it was being used negatively.
Female literally means egg holding human. Do peeps get offended being called female?
Oh shit. Is language fucking social? Jesus. Motherfuckers think gender is social but language is concrete apparently.
FOH
Do peeps get offended being called female?
Yes. It's scientific language usually used to insult women. IE; men and females.
That's entirely my point. We don't have to be robotic about this shit. We can't argue against people we refuse to understand.
Lmao
Someone actually downvoted you for this.
It's discourse. Fuck off with your emotions. Talk or gtfo.
Lol
Fucking kedy lamarr over here.
?
Blazing Saddles. There's a character named Hedley Lamarr. Everyone calls him Hedy.
Oh! Thanks for the clarification! I guess I'll honor you being the bigger person by stopping being an ass... wait, on rereading the conversation, are you actually agreeing with me? If so I entirely misread your position. Anyways, I guess my point was, Cis and Trans arent the identities themselves, but the categories of Identity. Most people dont identify as either cis nor trans, they Identify as Male or Female or etc, and its whether or not that identity lines up with their sex that puts them in trans or cis category. Right now cis is the best word we have for "shit matches up" as its the latin opposite of the word trans. The twitter/tumbler sphere that likes to go particularly crazy towards the perceived majority isnt particularly attached to these words when they use them to attack and dehumanize, all they really care about is you're lack of position on their oppression heirarchy
aka: Getting pissy about the word cis is a very small hill to die on considering most cis people dont consider cis part of their identity. Its the people they perceive using the word thats the issue, not the word itself, and we cant transition to a new word until we have a new word for it
Reasonable, nobody should have to accept a label they don't ascribe to themselves.
Bruh. We use labels to sort shit. Abstraction is how we deal with complexity. Choose your own labels, but how others see you isn't up to you. You've got no ownership of other peep's heads.
I don't care what's in your head just keep it to yourself. No-one wants to get misgendered, no-one wants to get mislabeled.
Do you find all the other labels that can be used to describe yourself offensive, or just this one?
Like are you offended by being called a human or homo sapien? Are you offended by being described by your skin color or race? Sexual preference? I just find it weird to single out the one label for no apparent reason.
How would you suggest we describe people that aren't trans or non-binary in a way that wouldn't offend you for whatever reason? As uncomfortable as it may be for you, gender identity is a thing, and the rest of the world is going to use that word to describe people. It would probably be best for you to just get over it.
Why are some women unhappy with being referred to as female? It's biologically accurate, yeah? Obviously can't be offensive.
You understand why some people find being called cis a problem, you just don't want to accept it ideologically. That's fine. Don't try to drag others to your viewpoint for bullshit reasons.
I understand that some women don't want to be called female when they are not cisgendered.
I just don't understand why a cisgendered person would have a problem being referred to as such, unless they were unsure if they were cis, or were bothered by the topic of gender identity as a whole.
If its the former, than I can understand, but if its the latter, then that's a you problem, and I don't care if you are offended being called cis.
I don't agree with the concept of gender. Therefore, I object to being referred to as "cis" or "trans". I have a sexed body and a brain within it that does brain things.
No, I don't identify as agender either. That still is part of the concept of gender.
Downvotes or deletion in 3...2...1...
Do you have pronouns folks should use when referring to you, or should folks just use your screen name?
Based off of their comment, if its not sarcastic, the only pronoun I could think of that doesn't have any hint of gender or enbyism to it is, "it".
"It" refers to things. I am a human being.
I apologize for assuming. Some people do actually prefer 'it', though. Your comment reminded me of a friend I have, who rejects any consideration of gender whatsoever. My friend prefers 'it' as a general pronoun if you aren't using their name, directly.
No problem!
They? 'it' can be used in an offensive manner.
I know that "it" can sound bad if it's not preferred, but I know some people that do actually prefer "it". Most people would prefer "they", but "they" still suggests some form of non-binaryism is what I was getting at. Some people want something even farther away from the concept.
Weeellll I hate to nitpick but "they" only has a nonbinary connotation because of the hype around the issue atm, but it has been used for a good long while to refer to people of unknown gender (or a plurality thereof). The best example I can come up with is think about electronic music, Major Lazer, are they a group? One dude? One woman? One of each? Two of one and one of another? Who knows what they are (shhh you could google it but ykwim). "They" is the natural choice in this instance, otherwise you're just guessing.
Also it does happen to fit in with the nonbinary crowd for much of the same reason, many of them want to appear androgynous or of unknown gender and so they basically use it on the same principle but it isn't exclusive to them nor should it necessarily conjure up images of nonbinary people just because that's currently the new use, it's probable many people have been using it as I described and never even noticed because it was just ingrained, and we only notice it at the "new" application regarding a specific individual's gender that we may perceive as "known" subconsciously.
Some people do use "it" as their pronouns. (I've been shopping for pronoun pins, there's a market for "it" pronoun pins, but it isn't one of the Big 3.)
I use the pronoun that is appropriate for my sex.
I think it's mostly about how it's used, yeah? Nobody calls me cis in real life. 40+ years and it hasn't come up. The only time I see it used is derogatively.
I don't mind - I have strong opinions about letting peeps vent, but I can see why others find it negative.
The only time I see it used is derogatively.
Give a few examples, please.
The going line is that "female" is for animals, "woman" is for human women, and if you say "female" you're an incel bigot who should die. They also often say "you'd never say 'male' to refer to men" but I actually do that all the time, to the degree now if I don't want to be bullied unnecessarily I have to say things like "My male friends don't care what I call them, but my
fem-[backspace] woman friends are very particular about verbiage."It's weird, but what can ya do.
The problem I've seen with being called "female" is when a speaker uses "men" for one set of people and "female" for another, in the same context. It feels gross, like they don't see women as fully human. It feels much less bleck when a speaker uses "male" and "female".
Why would a trans woman have any more problem with being called female?
Male/female have a usecase of being used to try to distance oneself from the subjects of your sentence and often used in more scientific or legalistic styles and can come off as dehumanizing as a result.
Ah, I see what you are saying. I understand the connotations of referring to someone as female directly, and I would never do so.
There are times where female is more proper to use, such as in medical settings, or as a descriptor in certain settings, e.g. 'female hygiene products'. Some trans males and enbys would still be bothered by seeing the word 'female' in the proper setting, too.
Some trans males ... would still be bothered by seeing the word ‘female’ in the proper setting, too.
Trans men are males and trans women are females...
I know that. So you agree and idk what you are trying to add here. Hence why I said that they are bothered when they see the word 'female' on things like their medical paperwork, dead named IDs, products they have to use, etc.
Just because they are males doesn't mean the rest of the world automatically changes its pronouns for them, and its unfortunate they have to deal with that.
I find your finding of the cis label offensive to be offensive. That's my right.
