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It seems that people like being in crisis, rather than having stability.
It seems that people like being in crisis, rather than having stability.
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Didn't trump win with about 27% of the population voting for him?
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Why didn't more people vote then when it was public knowledge that this could be there result?
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They should've, but.. it seems a lot of Americans just aren't compelled to perform their civic duty. I personally could never understand it, I obviously voted Harris, but in my experience (With Examples!) the average American is not:
1) solution-oriented
- "I can't eat healthy to improve my health, it costs too much money! Oh, beans are incredibly cheap? But some people (not me) are allergic to soy!"
- "Everything costs too much money, I have no savings for retirement! Oh, I can dedicate even just a small portion of my income ($50 or so) to a retirement account, just to get into the habit of saving? But I'm already being as frugal as I can and it's just not possible!"
- And of course "Politicians are all evil and corrupt! Oh, since I live in a democracy I can vote for candidates who aren't or, if there's truly no good candidates, run for office myself? But that's too much effort and I'm too tired from work!"
2) interested in learning
- "I don't think I can vote, since I don't understand politics (never mind the fact it takes maybe max 4 hours to research which candidates you like)"
- "I can't go to a climate rally, because I don't understand the issue enough (never mind the fact I hold the Library of Alexandria in the palm of my hand)"
3) capable of caring for others in their community at potential cost to themselves (even if that cost is just "effort" or "time")
- "Communism is bad bc imagine if everyone's grades in school were equalized!" (heard this one in high school, the guy who said this was infuriatingly praised by the whole damn class. Regardless of any discussions of Capitalism v Socialism v Communism, this terrible analogy always irked me because it really emphasizes just how infantile most criticism of socialist/communist policy really is. You know what? If "getting a bad grade" because you "didn't work hard enough" in this analogy led to you literally dying because you couldn't afford healthcare, I would share my damn grades with you. And I was a straight A student lol)
4) capable of thinking with their logic rather than their emotions
- See every single person who abstained from voting because they were single-issue voters over Palestine even though Trump was way worse on their single issue. Once someone even told me something to the tune of "If you're thinking with logic and doing anything other than outright crying at everything that's going on, you're an awful person" (susceptible to propaganda much?)
Idk. This got long lmao, didn't realize how many gripes I had bottled up. This is all stuff I have actually heard or seen ppl say. People in the US frustrate me, and I am hoping this is an effect unique to America, perhaps because of American exceptionalism or the massive quantities of Russian/Chinese propaganda aimed to destabilize the US or too much individualism or something, because I really want to just leave the country and be done with American culture forever.
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Hit the nail on the head. American culture has become increasingly apathetic and cynical in recent years. There's a lot of factors at play but I would say the concentration of wealth and resulting decline of the middle class as well the erosion of a sense of community are two key factors behind this.
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Americans just aren’t compelled to perform their civic duty
Maybe, it could also be that voting feels like a waste of time in the majority of states where the outcome is pretty much known after the primaries.
For example, I live in Utah. The R candidate will win by more than 15 percentage points even if a popular independent runs against him (e.g. Evan McMullin). On my ballot, some seats aren't even contested because everyone knows running against the R is a waste of time and money. I've considered running if only to give people in my district a choice, and I'd probably get 20% of the vote as a protest, but still lose even with an incredibly strong campaign. Even for many of the non-partisan seats, candidates get endorsements by R office holders.
If that's what happens every single time, why bother voting?
I still vote and am disappointed every single time, mostly because I feel it's my civic duty. And apparently 69% of Utah does as well, though I guess something like 60% of those like the outcome of the election.
- I'm guessing this is true in most parts of the world
- Same as 1, though going to rallies also don't really matter IMO. Real work is done through lobbies.
- The US is 5 for most charitable donations. There are multiple ways to care for your community.
- Look no further than here on lemmy to see that this isn't an American thing. People are tribal, and going with the group is way easier than thinking for yourself.
This is all stuff I have actually heard or seen ppl say.
Sure, and I've heard people say exactly the opposite. Be careful about your own biases and get a larger sample than just your personal interactions. That's why we have polls and studies.
I really don't think this is unique to the US, I think it's pretty common for humanity as a whole.
That said, there are certainly things to dislike about American culture, and as an American, I certainly have plenty of my own. However, there are also a lot of things to like about American culture.
I highly recommend you look for the good instead of the bad, because you'll find it.
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Yeah. Anericans dererve collapse, they brought it on themselves.
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Trouble is they'll drag the rest of us down with them.
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Trouble is they’ll continue to drag the rest of us down with them.
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their civic duty.
Barf. Condescending and delusional wacko. Keep blaming the voters though. It's a real winner strategy smh...
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You perform your civic duty by not voting in the same way as you would by voting.
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You perform your civic duty by not voting in the same way as you would by voting.
Then you're implicitly voting for whomever wins (since you're "doing your duty" by doing fuck all), and you better be happy with it.
So yeah, we'll continue to blame non voters for tacitly approving of trump and letting him win.
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Not voting delegitimises the government and puts pressure on the political system. The minor benefits of that are not countered by any drawbacks if you are in the vast majority of states that are not swing states.
But my main point is: you have to develop a solid ideological viewpoint and act on it if you actually want your voice to be represented. If you just vote for the parties that you do not agree with because you feel like you have to you are actually not doing your "democraric duty" and instead are legitimising the government that does not represent your desires, thusly eroding democracy.
You can say, that if a lot of people thought this way and voted for, say, Jill Stein, or not at all, the Democrats would not win. To that I would say, why would I want them to win if I do not agree with their politics? But most importantly, if people were actually willing to stand their ground and at least try to hold politicians accountable and fight for political representation(of their views) you would not have the political fiasco you have now in the first place.
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All of these discussions need to have the context of TIMING added.
why would I want them to win if I do not agree with their politics?
For me, it depends on when you ask. Right now, yeah the Democratic Party seems pretty fucked, and poised to continue our corporate oligarchy IF they ever get a chance to have power again. The party (or some other party to replace them) needs to rebuild around young progressive voices focused on actually helping society.
In the voting booth back on Election Day though? Well let me think about the actual choice in that moment. And keep in mind I live in a swing state, so I vote as if I may actually affect the outcome.
Option A: vote Democrat. We get things like
- government and police serving the rich
- inequality status quo
- Israel genocide support status quo
- Garbage healthcare status quo
Wow, I certainly don’t support THAT mess! Surely I’ll just go for the next one…
Option B: vote Republican. Then instead it’s
- oligarchy in turbo mode, with billionaires taking the place of governors at the inauguration and other billionaires directly trying to cut off funding to the needy
- inequality getting worse, due in part to the above
- Israel genocide in turbo mode, in fact let’s just take over Gaza ourselves
- Healthcare status quo would be a gift in comparison to whatever RFK and the other fuckups have brewing
- Unqualified loyalists put into positions of power (I can’t decide if my favorite is the talking head as Secretary of defense, the Russian asset nominated for national intelligence, or the Trump donor and fossil fuel CEO for energy, etc)
- certain types of people are supposed to just not exist any more
- other types of people can exist but just not have as many rights or be in control
- destroying the careers and lives of thousands of career civil servants because they work remotely, or because they investigated a criminal once that Trump likes
- ripping tons of other people out of their communities and making them disappear to some unfamiliar faraway place because they have the wrong skin tone or could not produce their papers
- fascism?
- Demonstrated criminal and traitor in the White House?
- Let’s pardon that criminal traitor’s accomplices while we’re at it.
- Seriously this list could go on and on, and yes some of these specifics weren’t known in November but it was all VERY predictable
Option C: vote for any other candidate or just stay home.
- your true best choice, and/or your disgust for the whole thing, are noted and recorded (and since third party candidates won’t get elected, people won’t attack you for legitimizing 100% of the wacky shit in their platform with a single vote)
- A or B are guaranteed to win, regardless of literally anything you do.
- If you have any level of preference between A and B, you have mathematically helped the choice you like less by not voting for the only viable alternative.
It is shit that this “lesser evil” choice is there, and our voting and 2-party system are flawed in so many ways that need to be fixed. But once you’re to the general election, this is the practical reality of your choices. Again, I’m in a swing state so I vote as if I might actually have an effect on the outcome.
After what I’ve seen over the last decade, I want a very very different political party (or several of them, if I can dream) to oppose the conservative hate, greed, and negativity in our society and institutions.
But damn it, I care about other people and I try to help them in ways that I can actually affect the world, not the ways that make me feel the most morally superior or like I have the cleanest hands. Voting “against” something instead of “for” something isn’t a great place to be. This is obvious. But when the thing you’re voting against is fucking evil and wants to destroy people you talk with every day, once it gets to the point of a general election I am voting against that piece of shit and all his enablers in the most impactful way I can. Every time.
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I see your point, but I should say that I agree that it would be better for you to have Harriss than Trump. However, that does not mean you should have voted for her. Dependending on the state you are in, your vote either has no effect on the election at all, or it has only a very very very small chance to decide it. And for as long as it does not decide it it is irrelevant. So even if the benefit of not voting is very small, like keeping your moral integrity or embodying democratic principles or not wasting your time, it is still worth it.
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No disagreement here! I’m obviously a fan of practical considerations in casting a vote.
Like I said, swing state here. I wonder what I would have done if I were in one of the darkest blue or red states. Voting for the actual best third party platform would probably be my default for President, but Trump is so bad that I’m not sure how I would approach it.
But everything down the ballot matters too. If one of Trump’s enablers had even a slim chance of victory I would want to vote for their highest polling opponent (within reason, all else being equal, etc).
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And what is down the ballot? Local governors? You don't just vote for the president in the presidential election?
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It’s multiple positions at multiple levels of government. Since you asked, I bet I can quickly find what was in my ballot in November…
President (Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, Green Party)
Senator (Democratic, Republican, Libertarian, Green Party, Constitution Party)
Attorney General (6 parties represented)
Auditor General (5 parties)
State Treasurer (5 parties)
Representative in Congress (only R and D)
State Senator (only R and D)
State Representative (only R and D)
And all of these would have a line for write-in on the ballot, of course.
So it goes from the president all the way down to the state representative, which is somebody who represents your local district at the state level legislature. So they could very well be a neighbor or a name in the local community.
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Not voting delegitimises the government and puts pressure on the political system.
And then once enough people aren't voting the government-legitimacy fairy will come down from the sky and wave a wand to fix everything.
This was famously the case back in the 1780s when most people in the US couldn't vote at all. The US government was illegitimate, and so it instantly ceased to exist, which is why there's actually no problems at all today. Glad we nipped that one in the bud back then.
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The government was legitimate then, obviously. Why would you apply our modern view of the matter to that time? It is irrelevant.
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pressure on the political system
They literally only care about voters dude. They don't give a shit about non voters.
thusly eroding democracy
Even in a full, complete and true democracy, compromise is still the name of the game. The very nature of a collective people making government forces compromise. You will never not have to compromise, and compromise is not "erosion of democracy". Your entire premise is simply wrong; democracy is not just getting what you want.
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Modern states derive their legitimiacy from the will of the people, so an election with low turnout is less legitimate than an election with higher turnout. This can be noticable when a very small amount of people votes. This is why they repeat that you have to vote, no matter for whom, this pro-voting propaganda is meant to legitimise the government.
It is you who are wrong about my position. Democracy is not getting what you want, it is the government following the will of the majority, which it does not because the democratic party has been supporting a largely unpopular genocide, and if you are against it, you have no way to have your view(which is popular) represented in the political system. The democrats don't give a shit what their voters want, they will vote for them anyway, for as long as they hate the other party more. But if the majority of people hates both parties/candidates, and votes for the one they hate less, this is not democracy.
Also, the democratic party sucks for many reasons, not just the recent Palestine development.
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less legitimate than an election with higher turnout.
Yes. But in practice, the government doesn't care about that. Why would they?
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You know, they had elections in the soviet union. And you had two options, vote for the candidate(there was only one) and spoil the ballot(not an official option, clearly).
If enough people spoiled the ballot, a new candidate could be indroduced, but this is infrequent and irrelevant.
Riddle me this, why have elections if you have only one candidate on the ballot? What is the point of having mock elections in dictatorships, with fake numbers?
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Cool, but fun fact, we only may have just become a dictator ship with trump. Before that at least, we weren't one. You're ignoring primaries.
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You want a bunch of people to suffer and die in addition to the people already doomed to suffer and die on the off chance we get a better world at the end of it.
If this is accurate (and I'd almost bet money that it is), you are evil and shouldn't be listened to.
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No, I want all that to happen so that I can feel good about myself for not voting.
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That's a lot of words to say that you don't care about other people or what happens to them. I'm sure trans people at home or those suffering under the neo-colonial regime of the US are proud of you.
you have to develop a solid ideological viewpoint and act on it if you actually want your voice to be represented.
Yeah, I guess that's where we differ. I use my ideological viewpoint to protect people rather than let immense harm come to them in the vain attempt to make a point to political organizations. But it amazes me the lengths people go to justify increasing the amount of suffering they are allowing to occur based on "principles".
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those suffering under the neo-colonial regime of the US are proud of you.
I wouldn't expect the victims of genocide to be proud of people for voting for either genocidal candidate. It's fairly offensive that someone with your callousness and privilege would even speak for them.
it amazes me the lengths people go to justify increasing the amount of suffering they are allowing to occur based on “principles”.
Yes, you are enabling endless violence by your support for these disgusting politicians and their racist, patriarchial empire. Your principles are bad actually.
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I wouldn't expect the victims of genocide to be proud of people for voting for either genocidal candidate. It's fairly offensive that someone with your callousness and privilege would even speak for them.
It's not callous to acknowledge that your choice will and already has lead to greater suffering, suffering that I have to watch my family and friends go through. You call me callous but didn't even try to stop, and you're hiding behind systemic problems to not have to acknowledge that.
So with all due respect, kindly go fuck yourself.
Yes, you are enabling endless violence by your support for these disgusting politicians and their racist, patriarchial empire. Your principles are bad actually.
And you're accelerating that through your principles, so they're still worse than mine.
Like it or not, sitting out is not helpful to your cause. But keep telling yourself what you have to do you can sleep at night.
Goodbye, and I will not read any additional replies.
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They wouldn't be enabling shit because the idea that simply not turning out for the election would end the violence is completely and utterly delusional.
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And if I was a US citizen and I did not vote, or voted for Trump, what would change? I will tell you what, nothing. You can vote for whomever you want, and still only one candidate will win, and your vote will likely not matter even if you live in a swing state but you probably don't, so it doesn't matter at all. You make it sound like by abstaining you elect Trump, but if your vote is not decisive, it does not have a negative impact on others. So indulging my ego would do no harm. But it would delegitimise the system I am opposed to.
You are complaining about the neo-colonial regime of the US. I am not certain how legitimising the party that supports it is going to change anything in that regard, but please, enlighten me.
Every vote is a vote for the system, it does not matter whether you vote for Trump or not. If you love the right-wing democratic party and don't want anti-imperialist, leftist and even centre-left views present in your political system, please, do not do anything and just vote for whatever mediocre politician the party appoints while disregarding the popular will. But stop complaining about people that actually want their views represented.
Democracy does not just arise naturally, it has to be maintained. You have to stand your ground, demand what is rightfully yours. If you do not even try to do that, and just defer to the political system, you do not understand what it takes to have a democracy.
Why would anyone vote for a party that they are opposed to ideologically?
Edit: I do understand why, of course, I just diapprove.
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You disprove of trying to prevent fascism.
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Some of it was voter suppression. And not just the overt kind but also things like voting on a weekday and hour long queues when in most civilized countries voting takes less than half an hour total including wait time even at the busiest times of day.
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But more people did vote, as evidenced by @JohnDClay@sh.itjust.works's post here.
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Turnout was one of the highest at 64%. (2020 was the highest recently at 66%) It's hard to get everyone to do anything.
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Looks like all we need is a civil war or threat of civil war to get people to the polls, since the last time it was higher was the mid-1800s...
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The system has always been rigged. Many people can't vote, most people's votes don't matter at all, both candidates are trash, etc.
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The second and third absolutely apply to me, but since my vote doesn't matter anyway, I just vote for a third party that I believe in. The expected winner will pretty much always win my state by 15-20 percentage points, and all third party candidates combined are something like 5%, so even if nobody voted for spoilers in my state, the outcome wouldn't change.
There are only a handful of states where your vote for President actually matters, and only a handful more where it might matter if you got literally all third party voters to oppose the expected winner.
We simply need more people to vote, and we need to fix our voting system so the rest of the country feels like voting matters. And I don't think we even need to throw out the electoral college, just throw out first past the post and we could get some interesting upsets.
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Yes, but he actually has a net positive approval rating amongst Americans at the moment. That will probably wane a bit, currently people perceive him as delivering on his campaign promises through the executive orders.
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Sure: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/approval/donald-trump/
Approval +5.2. Favorability isn't quite the same as approval.
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Paradoxically, if you look right above that and click on whether they approve or disapprove of him, it's 49 approve/44 disapprove right now. I'm not hugely surprised, as I've met several people who say they don't like him as a person but they like XYZ thing he's said or wants to do.
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So, they dislike Trump, but they hate immigrants and trans people more?
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Here's that link for those who are somehow not too lazy to click the first link, but too lazy to click the poll just above it. And a screen cap for those too lazy to click either:
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