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Do the IDF soldiers stop following these illegal orders at some point? Or have they been desensitized to what they’re doing?
You’re speaking like they don’t want to do this of their own accord?
if any soldier (IDF or not) refuses orders they will either be shot on site or imprisoned unless they either have enough $$$ or connections to overturn it.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Nuremberg_defense
(ethics, international law, idiomatic) An explanation offered as an excuse for behaving in a criminal or wrongful manner, claiming that one acted in this way because one was ordered by others (particularly superiors) to do so.
What if the soldiers and superiors stop shooting people on the spot. Okay wait, wait. What if... people stop obeying some lunatic single elderly people that tell us to kill other men, period, and just... not do it?
That would be neat. Imagine if humans knew what it means to be many against few, strong against weak. What we could accomplish...
There was a massive protest by ex military and general public demanding the right of raping Palestinians. This is not about elderly people deploying orders.
But where are they getting the idea that this is morally correct? Indoctrination. If our governments had no such power to influence its population, and/or limit its access to the truth, we could be so much wiser as a world population.
But it most certainly is, in general, about elderly giving orders. So many soldiers do not want to go to war. You really think the majority of soldiers in the world want to be in a war? That is ridiculous.
Can you cite this for me? I need to read up. Somehow I’ve been understanding that they were protesting in support of the Palestinians.
Jesus, you want a citation for this?
There have been protests inside Israel for ceasefire, the org Standing Together has done a lot of good organizing inside the country.
But one thing that Oct.7 accomplished was show the divisions in society wrt Palestinian apartheid. Its getting more difficult for people who can't abide it to coexist with people who are okay with it; and the people who believe there should be even more brutality and violence against Palestinians are becoming a major problem for both of those groups. The state of Israel is fracturing, while groups like the PFLP, Hamas and Fatah are coming together for the first time in decades. While some of the tactics of Hamas are unconscionable, and Fatah has a long collaborationist history with Israel, it definitely indicates a dramatic change of the dynamics in the region. We'll see what holds together and what breaks apart. Its very sad that Marwan Barghouti is currently imprisoned, he's one of the most popular figures in Palestine whereas Fatah and Hamas are fairly unpopular
People like citation so as to not blindly believe anything and everything they just mindlessly read on the internet. Its kinda suspicious that youre being antagonistic about someone wanting to see a source on an outrageous claim like that.
I didn't mean it to be antagonistic, and I provided a source. Its just such a disgusting story, bereft of any humanity. I wish I had never heard about it, I just couldn't believe someone wanted to like read about it
What we could accomplish…
a lot outside the military.
there is no such thing as an egalitarian military; they're tools of oppression and hegemony, not improvement.
Yeah, no, what I meant was to imagine what we could accomplish as a world population, if we realized that the many outrank the few, and we just stopped fighting each other. That would speed us all along so freaking fast, towards daily food and water and shelter for every single person on earth.
But no, we gotta kill each other for nonsense.
No sane military in the world does that anymore. Although I do doubt the sanity of the IDF
Pat Tillman has entered the chat
Or the story is hysterical exaggeration and lies.
It's a second-hand account of somebody who saw a video, anyway.
The original video is linked in the article. Looks pretty damning to me.
Broken link for me.
I sent it to you in another comment. Here:
@JustZ@lemmy.world
Are you ignoring this because it hurts too much to admit that the IDF is full of extremists and racists? Are you ignoring me because it's hard for you to admit to yourself that you have been supporting a genocide? Is Israel any different than the Cardassians? I noticed you like Star Trek, you like space, you like Robert Frost... but is your heart big enough to unblind your eyes and accept Palestians as humans who deserve a decent life or not?
You taught me a very important lesson, @JustZ@lemmy.world... which is that people can have many shared interests and be "nice", but still blinded by propaganda.
Thousands of reports of brutality and murder. Tens of thousands of dead children, their parents screaming at cameras, desperate to get people like you to understand their loss and value their lives, but this is never enough for you.
You taught me that even if you like DS9 like I do, it does not mean you understand or value their message. It does not mean you understand colonization or freedom... all of this seems to be simply based on some BS beliefs and articles written by the likes of that guy, John Spencer, and idiots like him who use your blindness and apathy and maybe even your genuine concern (if you have any) to push a agenda that would enable the equivalent of concentration camps in Gaza. The twist on words is incredible!!! Calling lawyers who want to guarantee basic human rights to Palestians like me as engaging in "lawfare". How pathetic! How pathetic it is that you cannot see how Israel is the one doing this with every cheap word they speak in public or in court.
My friend is in Gaza, stuck because Israel seems to have listed him as a "potential Hamas" because he is a man in his thirties even though he moved to Europe before the last elections and is nothing close to Hamas in his thinkin, he is a European citizen and Israel still keeps him locked there. His brother is a doctor at Al Nasser hospital who is missing and most likely being tortured and raped as we speak by the IDF whom you are SO EAGER to give the benefit of doubt... even when they killed Hind, when they killed this 7 year old girl and left her lifeless body hanging on the walls of her house, or literally any other innocent soul... you just made up excuses for every evidence of every innocent person being killed in Gaza.
Why are you so eager to give them excuses? Are you paid to do it? Do you have Israeli family members? Did you go on a birthright trip? Did you see the Palestinians in cages? The Palestinians being now raped in Israeli prisons? Do you think of them? Would you be okay with being penetrated anally, raped, and then killed in an Israeli prison with no lawyer to see you and no family to speak to? Is that "legally justified" in your eyes? You can scream and shout all you like and call this a "report" but unfortunately there is footage of this being discussed in the Knesset.
What is this that personally motivates you to brush away the crime of genocide? Is it really just political indoctrination as an American? How old are you? What generation are you? And when you look at the stars at night, do you even wonder if other people are equally (in)significant as you? Do I matter as much as you? Or is it okay to blowe to pieces or rape me in jail forever because this will save "10,000,000" other people (or whatever other imaginary future scenario/number you made up in your head to justify the unthinkable)?
I had to scream this because you tend to ignore big blocks of text and only seem to respond when the text is big enough to make you look bad.
Look into your heart. These is time to change. There is time to be redeemed. Don't be a genocide enabler.
You are blinded by propaganda.
Gaza can choose life and liberty over terrorism and death anytime it wants. Start taking a little bit of responsibility for the actions of your people and your government.
Gaza can't choose shit because it's under occuaption and invasion.
It's just emotionally easier for you to pretend that it's the fault of Gazans or Palestinians in general...
You like to think we brought this genocide to ourselves so it's okay. People thought that about Jews under Nazi German too. This way it's easier for you to deny or justify blowing up water facilities. You just dehumanize Palestinians in a different way, but you dehumnize us just the same.
I never voted for Hamas. I don't support Hamas. I'm a Palestinian in diaspora. I am here for the FUCKING CIVILIANS.
Israel should have killed them all, and that is why you are not an evil man 😉
Have you watched the video yet?
Yes. I don't know enough about the people or place to say if it's legit or not. I know I often see links to "smoking gun" videos like this that do not show what they claim to show. I think this video requires you to take a lot on faith; that it is what it's claimed to be or that the video is even from Gaza and not so.e other war somewhere. Is shows some pipes and then a building blowing up shown from far away. The account that posted it apparently is deleted or private now.
Maybe the video is legit. Israeli army says they are investigating. Maybe the water system was supplying the tunnels, which would make it a legit target.
If claims about the video are true, it certainly flies in the face of other evidence like the fact that Israel lets new water infrastructure into Gaza all the time and new water desalinization plants have opened (and haven't been destroyed) even just since the war began.
"Ahhh what is this horror? This video mounting even more evidence of Israeli war crimes?? IT CANNOT BE TRUE!"
LOL.
If it turns out to be legit, which I would stress - since it was posted by the IDF soldiers themselves* - seems likely: would you not agree that this is likely a war crime?
*some edits to add.
From the Times of Israel article about it:
In the video, posted by a soldier to Instagram and later circulated on X, troops can be seen rigging up the water facility, known as Canada Well, with explosives. Another clip shows the site being blown up.
The video was tagged with the caption: “Demolishing the water reservoir of Tel Sultan in honor of the Sabbath.”
The Canadian government, who built the plant, also agrees that the video shows it being destroyed: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ottawa-calls-for-probe-into-demolished-canadian-water-treatment-plant-in-gaza-1.7281666
Seems very unlikely an IDF soldier would post a video claiming to be destroying a facility, which we know exists, and the people who paid to build it would identify it was the same building, and it would turn out to not be in Gaza at all. It is almost certainly the plant discussed in these articles.
In fact, it is an act of genocide, since depriving the population of water is "Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part."
Maybe the water system was supplying the tunnels, which would make it a legit target.
Isn't the main issue whether the facility was supplying the civilian population? What about proportionality?
it certainly flies in the face of other evidence like the fact that Israel lets new water infrastructure into Gaza all the time and new water desalinization plants have opened (and haven't been destroyed) even just since the war began.
We spoke about this before. Here is the link to the facts again: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68969239
Half of Gaza's water sites had been damaged or destroyed as of that report.
And here is the image of three specific examples again:
It certainly doesn't "fly in the face of other evidence," the evidence is all pointing in the same direction.
When we spoke about this previously, you speculated (based on "probability," in your words) that the facilities were maybe collateral damage during an attack on Hamas fighters. In this case, we have the video footage. No Hamas fighters. Charges specifically placed on water infrastructure. No attempt to access or destroy a tunnel. This is simply naked evidence of an intentional attack on the necessities of life for the civilian population.
I can accept lsrsel destroying infrastructure that is used to sustain Hamas holdouts at this point in the war, as long as Israel is bringing in water and opening new infrastructure, outside the influence and control of Hamas. That seems uncontroversial. I don't know if that's what happened here.
I join Canada and Israel and calling for a full investigation and if it is found to be true, then I join in calling for the perpetrators to be hanged. That also seems uncontroversial.
Three or four people have posted counterpoints to me now, and various links, and of course the video itself. All of these sources cite the video.
The video shows some guys standing around some pipes and then an exterior shot of an explosion. That's accompanied by some text and audio. It's posted on TikTok. As far as I can tell, the claims haven't been independently verified, that is, confirmed by credible, factual reporting extrinsic to the video.
And here we are once again with a most sensational claim being shared as if it was truth despite the fact that the only two or three credible sources that even bothered to run a story about the video make clear that it hasn't been independently verified. There's one credible story from Israel about the IDF acknowledging the video and saying it will investigate. There's one credible story out of Canada from some low-level diplomat saying that they saw the video and calling for independent investigation. That also seems uncontroversial.
The video shows some guys standing around some pipes and then an exterior shot of an explosion. That's accompanied by some text and audio. It's posted on TikTok. As far as I can tell, the claims haven't been independently verified, that is, confirmed by credible, factual reporting extrinsic to the video.
Ok but there are two stories you say are credible just below this, and they establish clear facts.
So two questions:
Do you believe this was posted by an IDF soldier, as reported by the Times of Israel?
Do you believe the video shows the Canada Well plant, as stated by both the original poster and a representative of the Canadian government?
If the answer to both of these is yes, what remaining reason is there to doubt the video? You say the "claims" haven't been verified but no claim is needed. It is on video. Do you mean the claim that the facility was destroyed, and that the external shot was not of something else being destroyed?
I am not being obtuse here, I just really don't understand what you mean
If claims about the video are true, it certainly flies in the face of other evidence like the fact that Israel lets new water infrastructure into Gaza all the time and new water desalinization plants have opened (and haven’t been destroyed) even just since the war began.
Can you back up any of these claims from independent sources?
Darn it X. There’s mirrors but I don’t know where to look. Regardless this wasn’t some hearsay, I saw the video posted too.
Don't bother. @JustZ@lemmy.world will just deny it anyway even if you plaster the video to his eyelids. I sent him a link to an article with the video (a TikTok recorded by the IDF or some shit like that). He won't click it. He knows that blowing up a water facility in an area where people are dying of hunger and lack of services is GENOCIDE. That's why it hurts so much.
He would never accept such treatment as a westerner. Why should I as a Palestinian? He thinks I should take it, die, be blown to bits and not bother him one bit. He thinks this is acceptable with every excuse he makes up for Zionism.
Typical nonsense argument from of you types.
Yeah you say that because it' easier to pretend I'm from "some type" than to realize that what I am saying is true.
I think you are just afraid to admit you have been a genocide enabler. Understandable.
Typical nonsense argument
P.S: my "argument" @JustZ@lemmy.world is a video documented by the IDF showing them commit a war crime in an article on the Times of Fucking Israel where the IDF itself will investigate the IDF for committing a potential war crime. It's YOU who are making "arguments" like "it's okay to kill an entire family because 1 Hamas member is somewhere 20 meters below them without their knowledge" or "killing civilians now is sad but necessary to save 10,000,000,000,000,000 people in the future who don't even exist yet!" But somehow @JustZ@lemmy.world you get all angry and screamy when I say it would be acceptable to KILL YOUR MOTHER AND DOG AND SON because it will save 10,000,000,000,000,000 imaginary souls in the future.
Somehow this is supposed to be acceptable for me and my own mother to be blown to bits, but not your mom! Not your dog! Just the Palestinian civilians and pets, only those are worthless. But not you, my friend! Not you @JustZ@lemmy.world.
You view me as less than human. I wish you would understand how bad it is to dehumanize others. One day someone may come here and dehumnize you, and I would stand against them. Because I don't want to be like you are now.
Yeah but like I never said any of these things. You're making it all up. I'm not a zionist at all.
So, you see, you're an emotional dumbass and not worth my time. That's why I blocked you like a year ago and you weirdly continue to stalk me.
You sound like a raving nutcase.
Here you go!
At least own up to the BS you say :) Your WHOLE FUCKING ARGUMENT now rests on imaginary math.
There are many more of these examples.
and yes @JustZ@lemmy.world , dear, anything you do not want to believe is "made up" 😅😅.
Maybe one day you will figure out how to block me. Until then, good luck you goddamn Zionist bootlicker, because I will go around unhindered talking about shit that matters to me and debunking your awful crap.
You are a prime example of how indoctrination can really rot the soul.
According to your own math, it's SAD YET ACCEPTBALE to rape and kill you, your whole family, and another million of your neighbors dumped into unmarked graves because killing Zionists will later save 10,000,000 Palestinian lives. DO YOU NOT SEE HOW FUCKED UP THAT SOUNDS??
If this is not fucking acceptable for you, then answer me this one question without running away: WHY. THE. FUCK. SHOULD IT BE ACCEPTABLE TO A PALESTINIAN???
No, you're just too dumb to realize how dumb you are. You know deep down you don't know anything about me, but here you are writing my book, stuffing words in my mouth.
Just, so dumb.
You didn't block me because you didn't figure out how to do it... as for not saying any of those things, I'll be back with screenshots :) give me 10 mins
"Hysterical" to gaslight like it's the 60's.
keep sucking bibi is almost done
