The Right-Wing Campaign to Purge Women From Women’s Sports
The Right-Wing Campaign to Purge Women From Women’s Sports
Algerian boxer Imane Khelif is the latest Olympic athlete deemed insufficiently female by extremists obsessed with the strictest of gender binaries.
You're viewing a single thread.
We do not know what is between Imane Khelif's legs. It is absolutely possible to be XY and be born with a vagina that looks and works like any vagina. They might even have rudimentary (but non-functional) female reproductive organs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_gonadal_dysgenesis
If that is true about Imane Khelif, she may not even have known about it most of her life.
Should all Olympians be genetically tested or just examined to see what's between their legs? If the former, which event do the women with Swyer Syndrome perform in? How about people with both sets of genitalia? They exist. What about people who are XXY or XYY?
And if you think the latter- please do justify that sort of invasive examination for the purposes of athletic competition. Unpaid athletic competition at that.
YY is also a thing I believe
At least one X is required because it contains instructions to make very crucial stuff, while Y contains a bunch of switches turning things on and off.
Do we need a protected class? If yes, there must be standards and those standards must be either endocrine or genetic or both. Yes they should be tested. Anyone failing the protected class can compete in the open class. It's really that simple.
there must be standards
Here's a standard: if you live as a woman you're a woman.
and those standards must be either endocrine or genetic or both
There is absolutely no reason to assert that this must be the case.
Do you really think it's fair for a full blown man to fight women in the ring just because he identifies as a woman? Women will get very seriously hurt or possibly killed fighting someone assigned male sex at birth. I have no problem letting them do anything that doesn't hurt others, but this is a case where I think we need to be more sensible.
Boxing has weight classes. As do most other martial arts.
The problem is not a 50kg men fighting a 70kg women in terms of injuries and power imbalance. And in that set up the women most likely wins. The problem is the typical situation of a 80-100 kg men smacking down on a 50-60kg women. And that is the image the demagogues try to conjure.
So if your full blown men is a 60kg feather to be able to compete against another 60kg women, the whole trope falls apart.
A man with the same body weight as a woman would still inherently have more upper body strength and higher ability to gain it as that's just how men are built vs women. It's still not a fair way of setting intersex classes.
I mean if they're doing the exact same rigor and type of training, eating the exact same diet, have had the exact same level of boxing experience and fought the exact same opponents at the same skill level, then yes there would be an advantage to whoever is assigned male
If it's about who might get hurt, maybe we should divide things up by something other than gender. I know plenty of women who could do a ton of damage with their fists and they aren't even boxers.
This is the correct answer. Divide competitors up by class, skill level, or anything else besides perceived sexual anatomy.
It's one thing to work within the limits of your physique to become stronger, better, etc. It's another thing to have a totally different physique that gives you a starting point higher than can be achieved naturally by anyone else.
So put those women in a higher class. There are plenty of women with "masculine" physiques... or are you going to claim Brittney Griner is also not a woman?
I don't think it's fair to penalize a woman who works all her life to get to a certain level and just make her compete against someone who maybe hasn't had to work at all because they are physically male. If anything, we need to make a class for people who are physically male but presenting female.
Are you talking about Khelif? How do you know she is "physically male?" What does that even mean? Is Brittney Griner "physically male?" Because she looks bigger and stronger than Khelif.
As far as I can tell, that reliable information isn't out there other than the fact that a Russian judge said she tested as XY and that she's tested for high testosterone. I'd say XY is a pretty good starting place to call someone male or at least not traditionally female, if that test can be trusted.
But I think a lot of the controversy here comes from a lack of trustable info.
You mean the Russian judge who said that after she beat her Russian opponent? Cool. Let's see the evidence.
You aren't believing a Russian judge, of all people, without evidence, are you?
Also, does that mean anyone with XY gonadal dysgenesis needs to be genetically tested before they're allowed to compete? If so, at what age should they be tested? The youngest Olympian this year is a 12-year-old skateboarder from China. The youngest Olympican ever was an 11-year-old figure skater from China.
Now... bear in mind that many women who have that particular condition are not even aware that they have it.
Would you be willing to support either genetic testing or genital examination of 11 or 12-year-old girls? Do you think that might make girls and women less likely to aspire to be athletes than they might occasionally have to compete against a "man?" Because I sure do.
What open class? There is no open class at the Olympics. So no it isn't really that simple.
Really? They prohibit women from competing alongside men?? No thats not the case, women only sports is to prevent males with higher biological advantage from taking over the women's competition.
Males are not taking over any women's competition anywhere in the world. I know that you think that trans women are men, but even by that standard this idea is a total farce - there is one transgender athlete out of like a thousand Olympians at this year's Olympics. There have been no major trans competitors in the Olympics despite being allowed since 2004. There is no dominance of trans athletes in sports at any level in any country on this planet. This is a phantom that you have invented in your head, it is totally illusory and does not exist - and because it does not exist, the only thing trying to fight this phantom can possibly accomplish is hurting women by excluding them from their own competitions.
Is this an "Air Bud Rule" thing?
Also, we have no idea if Khelif is biologically male. We have one corrupt Russian official saying "well maybe."
We actually do have a pretty good indicator that she's biologically female - the fact that her home country, where she still lives, would've jailed her if they figured out she was a trans woman before they sent her to the Olympics. Algeria doesn't allow gender transitioning in any way, and they can and do imprison people who live as a gender other than the one they were born as.
You clearly can't convince people. Because they just move on to "even if she is biologically female..."
The determination of who may compete in limited-class sports must be made by rules.
It’s not a matter of who you or I think is a woman who qualifies. Only the governing body of that sport makes that determination.
I think the debate is about what a reasonable class is. I don't think that an appendage, or identity for that matter, is a reasonable proxy for capability class. In my mind you really have to go one of two ways.
You either make everything class-less (think UFC 1) where all weights, sizes, abilities, genetics compete for a singular title
Or
You make science-based classes, based around whatever the best proxy for capabilities are (testosterone, chromosomes, height, weight, body fat percentage, some combination of the former, etc)
If you use nothing as a proxy, there would be a lot of people unable to compete but it would at least be unequivocally "fair". If you use science-based capability classes you would have a wider range of "fair-ish" competitions, but there might be some weird overlap where some men, some women, and those in-between bridge accepted norms.
If you use nothing as a proxy, there would be a lot of people unable to compete but it would at least be unequivocally "fair".
The thing is there's always going to be people unable to compete. I don't have the ability to compete in the Olympics, and that's OK. I'm not asking for them to make a class for people like me specifically.
I don't know what the "right" solution is, but my opinion has always been that the premier class should be unrestricted and anyone can compete. Whether we have subdivisions is another question, and then what those subdivisions should be is another. Is gender/sex the correct subdivision, or should it be something else? There are many women who can kick my ass despite being a 6' tall man. Gender/sex is not a definitive proxy for capability.
That really doesn't answer my question, it just splits it up between different bodies.
So let's say it's just a specific governing body of a sport? I'll reword it with a minor changes:
Should athletes be genetically tested by that body or just examined to see what’s between their legs? If the former, do the women with Swyer Syndrome perform in the male or female divisions? How about people with both sets of genitalia? They exist. What about people who are XXY or XYY?
And if you think the latter- please do justify that sort of invasive examination for the purposes of athletic competition.
I think you can give a general answer to that question which applies to all members of, at the very least, the boxing league Khelif is in.
That really doesn’t answer my question, it just splits it up between different bodies.
Sorry, that's just reality.
I can't give you a general answer that applies to all of women's sport, and for a specific answer regarding a particular women's sport, you'll need to consult with the governing body of that sport, and recognize that body may pander to interests (commercial, or the preferences of its participants and other stakeholders, etc) that have nothing to do with how you prefer to define "woman".
So just accept that's how things are and be happy with it? That's what you're saying?
I not telling you to accept or be happy with anything. I am saying that if you want women's sports to work the way you think they should work, you'll need to go through their governance bodies.
What a terribly passive way to think.
This isn't about the external genitalia, not sure why you keep going there. This is about the levels of hormones over an amount of time that is known to impart a muscular advantage. The IOC needs a formula for this to decide who can be in the class. This would not be a determination of who is female.
So it is entirely based on hormones?
I guess in that case, men with hypogonadism would fight women. Right?
In that case, maybe they shouldn't classify it between "men" and "women" classes.
I think the thing we are trying to regulate is the muscular advantage imparted by certain hormones over certain periods of time. Whether the person being measured has been labeled male or female doesn't make any difference.
If it is about hormones, why then also not test for growth hormone (GH)? People with more than average GH might have longer legs, giving them an advantage in certain sports. There is also Adrenaline, Cortisone, etc. also giving certain advantages. Maybe we should try to cancel out ALL natural variations, to make the competitions more fair. In the end, we can only allow exact clones from each other to compete to each other. And end up with competitions which equal to throwing a dice, because nobody can be truly be "the best" anymore, which can be defined as "possessing the best set of natural variations that makes this person a born winner".
This has been discussed for decades now: https://www.academia.edu/3811639
Again, in that case, let's not classify it between men and women.
MICR refers to the formulation of magnetic toner or ink used to print the special font at the bottom of checks. Different from regular ink or laser toner, MICR ink and toner contain magnetic iron oxide, a requirement of the Federal Reserve, making check-clearing a more efficient process.
...
According to the Federal Reserve and the Accredited Standards Committee, X9 Inc. for financial industry standards, a check must contain MICR for it to be treated as a cash item.
If your business is currently printing its own checks, you must use proper MICR toner or ink to ensure they are compliant with the processing procedures of the banking system.
https://www.sourcetech.com/blog/why-micr-line-required-checks