This operation has the potential to better Ukraine's strategic position greatly. Ukraine winning means the dying of civilians stops. Ukraine giving up would not have the same result.
Did ww2 stop when Germany conquered Czechoslovakia? - No.
Did ww2 stop when Germany conquered Poland? - No.
Did ww2 stop when Germany conquered the Netherlands? - No.
Did ww2 stop when Germany conquered Denmark? - No.
would ukraine winning mean civilians stop dying in the eastern oblasts where the coup regime have been murdering civilians and bombing and shelling them since 2014?
Ukraine winning means the dying of civilians stops. Ukraine giving up would not have the same result.
Ukraine winning, Ukraine giving up, Ukraine making a peace deal with Russia, Russia winning - all those options will mean the dying of civilians stops.
The only option where people will continue to die is the option you (probably) support - continuing the war.
Russia winning means, the dying will continue in the suppression of their new subjects and in future invasions since this one would have been successful in the end.
How many people have died from "supression" (whatever it means in this context) in the Crimea, that has been occupied for 10 years now?
And the next question - how come this number (is it 0 or more?) is less then the number of civilians (some of whom be Ukrainians or ex-Ukrainians) that died from Ukrainian shelling of Crimea?
Do you think people should have a choice of dying in this, very real, war, or in some hypothetical could-happen war in the future?
You lie, moskals have been observed to continue stealing, raping, killing and ethnic cleansing long after any hostilities ceased in many armed conflicts before. Their behaviour in Bucha and elsewhere proves they haven't changed one bit.
You support who fighting back against the aggressor?
People who are now trapped in the biggest mass prison in the world? People who are trying to escape this prison by any means, including through the occupied territories, mountains and rivers? People who are afraid to leave homes and go to grocery shops, because any day they might be kidnapped by "recruitment officers" and forcefully sent to die?
You are not supporting us, you are killing us, together with Russia.
Okay Russian shill, let’s just believe you’re a low intelligence Ukrainian and not actually getting paid.
Citizens have a duty to defend their nation or the nation will cease to exist. If Ukraine ceases to exist then the child murdering Russians have gotten everything they want for the small cost of bombing some children's hospitals.
So supposing you are a Ukrainian, you’re a disgrace and a coward.
But it seems to me that many many Ukranian citizens are actively fighting to ensure their survival and the survival of their nation, so by your own logic it should exist. If you don't want to fight, that's fine. Don't fight. There should be no duty to fight, but if you love your country, and want your way of life to continue, you should fight against the invading forces who want to destroy your country and way of life.
But it seems to me that many many Ukranian citizens are actively fighting to ensure their survival and the survival of their nation
You have outdated info. It might have been somewhat correct 2 years ago, when there were some volunteers. Now - it's pure propaganda spread by Zelensky and parroted by the western media. Now, the only thing people do "actively" is trying to avoid being kidnapped on the streets or trying to flee the mass prison that is Ukraine, some dying in the rivers/mountains trying to do so.
And even those who fight - they don't fight for their survival, not even for the survival of the state (although I guess in some sense you can say that), just for some peace of land, which the state wants to control.
If you don't want to fight, that's fine. Don't fight.
Oh really? Thank god I have a choice. Oh right, I don't - Zelensky's regime will happily kidnap me, my family and my friends and send everyone to die at the first opportunity they get (although with me it will be harder, because I escaped Ukraine before the war started).
There should be no duty to fight
Indeed, I'm glad that we can at least agree on this.
If only you also stopped supporting those who force this "duty" on others...
but if you love your country
How can I love a country that wants me dead?
and want your way of life to continue, you should fight against the invading forces who want to destroy your country and way of life.
You are (most likely) looking at this from a perspective of a westerner, who has never been in Ukraine and/or Russia. If you live in USA, EU, or basically any other "first world country" - I can see why you would fight Russia to "keep your way of life". Look at any metric you want (GDP, HDI, corruption, journalist freedom, amount of wooden toilets in the countryside) and you will see that both countries are the same shithole give or take. Average Joe wouldn't even notice his government has changed.
What is it that makes you so consumed with hate that you are willing to fully align with the russian propaganda? There is nothing wrong with being critical, but if the consequence is, to just pick a side and unconditionally accept their narrative then you've given up any critical thinking.
Whom do I hate? People who are trying to kill me and my family and friends? Should I be okay with it?
that you are willing to fully align with the russian propaganda?
I do not "fully align with the Russian propaganda", only with parts of it that are true... And if I said something that is false, I'd very much like to learn where I'm wrong, if you could just point me exactly what is it that I've said that is wrong?
Guaranteed you've been to Russia and if you visited Ukraine you probably called it Russia as well.
I haven't "visited" Ukraine, I've lived there.
refusing to give solutions you claim to have
WDYM by that? Quote needed :) My solution is to stop kidnapping innocent people on the streets and forbidding them from leaving the country, as simple as that.
Ah, yet another 4-letter pro-Kremlin account systematically spreading lies and propaganda using the exact same narratives as Russian state-controlled media. Must be a coincidence.
The deleted comment said that I'm lying. By definition it means the author thinks that I've said something that is not true, so it can be disproved (or at least one can provide an argument why it's likely not to be true).
you've offered an idiotic opinion
Is there any reason that it is idiotic, other than not being aligned with western propaganda?
That cedeing to a country that openly plans to retake its former Soviet borders will somehow dispite all logic result in Russian withdrawal and lasting peace.
Now, you've said peace talks. No one has stopped those and it's no surprise fighting still has not stopped.
You sure it isn't the people literally blowing up Ukrainians. If Russia is so altruistic when then do they not see these "desperate prisoners of war" and give them mercy by withdrawimg from Ukraine since as your source says they are there killing civilians... Children... For a fucking political stunt.
That cedeing to a country that openly plans to retake its former Soviet borders will somehow dispite all logic result in Russian withdrawal and lasting peace.
If anything, the initial proposal was about Russia cedeing territory that it has captured (since 2022 invasion) to Ukraine, not the other way around.
No one has stopped those
No one has been doing any serious peace talks after the initial ones either.
You sure it isn't the people literally blowing up Ukrainians
Those as well, but you have to deal with more immediate problem first.
It's funny that you call me a fascist, despite me arguing against fascism :)
Wikipedia:
Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ FASH-iz-əm) is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement,[1][2][3] characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.[2][3]
How many of those points are not true about current Ukrainian government?
That's not really how wars work in the 2020s. There's no opportunity to surrender when you get droned in a truck miles away from the front lines or hit by a glide-bomb in your barracks hundreds of miles from the front. We saw the same thing in the conflict between Azerbaijan and Armenia.
Between deserting and surrendering is sneaking across miles of territory, through the front lines, in hopes that the other side accepts your surrender and puts you in a POW camp instead of droning the guy in an enemy uniform sneaking towards their position.
We've seen plenty of videos of both sides droning people trying to surrender.
yes amerikkka and its european puppets ONLY, supported a qoup and its resulting regime, tried to pull said qoup regime into an allience of aggression designed to threaten Russia, provided said regime with weapons, provides said regime with munitions, provides said regime with satellite data to make it possible to target stuff, provides said regime with money, proivides said regimes soldiers with training and encourages mercenaries to go fight for said regime.
yep its NOT a proxiwar and amerikkka is NOT involved in any meaningful way, and for sure gold stars do NOT keep appearing at a much higher rate than before in the CIAs stupid war criminal celebration wall.
The West offered Zelensky a way out and to give up the moment the war started. He and his country refused and asked for weapons to defend themselves against a tyrant that will never stop. How exactly did the west force Ukraine to fight?
The West offered Zelwnsky a way out and to give up the moment the war started.
What? The west (and especially Boris Johnson) encouraged Zelensky to fight and encouraged him to drop the peace proposal (which included Russia going back to pre-2022 invasion borders!).
He and his country refused
Just "He".
How exactly did the west force Ukraine to fight?
The west supports Zelensky's regime, which kidnaps people on the streets and sends them to die.
Zelensky could have fled. He refused. Ukrainians could have surrendered, they refused surprising everyone. Putin will never stop unless he is stopped. To support Ukraine surrendering is to support many many more Ukrainian deaths in the future.
No. We don't have a choice. We cannot even choose our president, much less choosing to end the war. We cannot speak out against our government (except anonymously like I do). People cannot even fucking leave their houses without fear of being kidnapped.
Then go to Russia, I'm sure they'd be more than willing to send you to the front to kill your fellow Ukrainian brothers and sisters, and it'll get you out of the "prison" that is supposedly Ukraine. 🙄
Wtf is the point of your comment chain? I've seen and heard no claims that Ukraine is kidnapping people off the street to be sent to the front, outside of Russian owned state media. The same media that hides and covers up the fact that Russia is doing exactly what you're describing to its own citizens.
Ukraine was invaded, and the country chose to defend itself as opposed to roll over and take Putin's boot on their throat. The invasion was begun under a completely fabricated claim about historical Russian boundaries. Zelensky and Ukraine have, to me, been nothing but up front about their motives, their rationale, and pride they have for their country.
I'm sure they'd be ashamed to know you think so little of your brother and sister Ukrainians, but then again, it sure sounds like you'd rather have a Russian boot on your neck than a Ukrainian uniform on your shoulders. Cowardly, and pathetic. I wouldn't spit in your direction, it'd be an insult to the spit.
I fucking hate them...
Almost the entire Lemmy (with an exception of a few .ml and other instances) is telling me how I and my compatriots are happily dying for our glorious master Zelensky, while in reality we have to hide and/or flee, because we just want to live...
I don't know if they are truly evil and sadistic or just brainwashed by propaganda... What the fuck did we do to them to deserve this treatment??..
Anyway, just wanted to say thanks to those who don't support this sadistic bullshit..
The prick is clearly an ex-american drone operator who thinks you should take pride in dying for some douchebag upper class ghoul like biden, zelensky or whatever genocider they stan currently.
Dont worry about it, they probably have various stages of PTSD from all the kids they blew up during the gulf wars and will either kill themselves or there famalies within the next 10 years.
If I were in Ukraine, I'd be wishing for opportunity to go to Russia, because it's one of the few ways to escape it... Thankfully I've left before the war started, so I don't need to.
get you out of the “prison” that is supposedly Ukraine. 🙄
I’ve seen and heard no claims that Ukraine is kidnapping people off the street to be sent to the front, outside of Russian owned state media.
Well, exactly so that you have a chance to see it, and stop thinking of yourself as a good guy who is helping Ukrainians while in reality you are helping to murder us.
The same media that hides and covers up the fact that Russia is doing exactly what you’re describing to its own citizens.
Well, I never claimed that Russia is the good guy here, but they are not doing exactly the same. They have conscription, but they don't fucking kidnap people from the streets (or at least on a way smaller scale..) and they don't turn their country into a mass prison that you can't leave.
and the country chose to defend itself
Zelensky's regime decided to turn country into a mass-prison and kidnap people and send them to die. It is not "country choosing to defend itself".
I’m sure they’d be ashamed to know you think so little of your brother and sister Ukrainians
My Ukrainian "brothers" either already escaped Ukraine, or are trying to, or just trying to survive there. The "sisters" left a long time ago.
it sure sounds like you’d rather have a Russian boot on your neck
What "Russian boot"? I might have missed what happened to people in Crimea, living under "Russian boot" for 10 years now... How many have died or been repressed? From Russia's hand I mean, not from Ukrainian shelling of Crimea..
But I mean yeah, obviously I'd prefer living under Russian boot than under Ukrainian boot, with Russian boot at least I'd not fear being kidnapped on the street and sent to die, and being able to freely leave a country sounds nice as well...
If I were in Ukraine, I'd be wishing for opportunity to go to Russia, because it's one of the few ways to escape it... Thankfully I've left before the war started, so I don't need to.
So again, pathetic and a coward, assuming you're from Ukraine at all, Comrade. 🙄
Huh, a country being invaded needs men to fight, who would've fucking thought. So what's your solution? End the war and let Russia have their way? Makes sense, it doesn't affect you in the slightest as a coward who fled his homeland and now comes online to trash it and defend the invaders.
Pathetic coward.
Well, exactly so that you have a chance to see it, and stop thinking of yourself as a good guy who is helping Ukrainians while in reality you are helping to murder us.
Right, so if the West stopped supplying arms to Ukraine to defend themselves against an unlawful aggressor, Russia will immediately stop the invasion?
Tell me, is that why Ukraine's military chooses to bomb and seek out strategic resources for their attacks, while Russia bombs apartment buildings and city centers? Yep, must be that pesky western influence that wants to check notes stop the authoritarian creep of Russia as they attempt to reclaim their Soviet satellite states.
You're right, the West is to blame for Russia invading another country, raping, and slaughtering its people. I'm sure the people being killed and injured in Russia's bombing attacks really wish the Russians would just take over already and turn them into second-class citizens, at fucking best.
Pathetic coward.
Well, I never claimed that Russia is the good guy here, but they are not doing exactly the same.
No, you are, because if you weren't, you wouldn't be defending Russia at all in any of this, because they are 100% in the wrong, from start to finish. And yes, they are doing exactly the same thing. Russia has pulled people out of their prisons and sent them to the front lines, so do they not count as people to you, because they're prisoners?
Russia has also been sending captured Ukrainian troops to the front lines, along with kidnapping their own men off the streets and sending them into battle with few supplies, if any. Like, are you fucking dense, man? Eyes wide shut kind of thing?
Pathetic coward.
Zelensky's regime decided to turn country into a mass-prison and kidnap people and send them to die. It is not "country choosing to defend itself".
Zelensky was elected by the Ukrainian people, it's not a fucking regime. And he went to war with the backing of his people. I'm sorry Ukraine was the first target Russia had in their quest to reclaim the glory that was the Soviet Union 🙄 But they are, and they could have chosen to bend the knee to Russia, or rightfully, defend themselves.
They, the people of Ukraine, chose to defend themselves, so fuck right off with this "Zelensky evil dictator" bullshit. He's not, he's just fucking not. If the people of Ukraine didn't want to defend their homeland, the troops would just surrender instead of fighting back, and they're fucking not.
So fuck right off, you pathetic coward, and I feel sorry for whatever country your cowardly ass ended up in. Hope they're never invaded, we'll all know the first person will be that starts sucking his invaders cocks down to the balls.
It's not my battle, my country wasn't invaded. His was, but he had already left, and refuses to go back and help, but defends the people invading his country. That's pathetic and cowardly, and spoken by someone in a position of privilege from foreign soil (again, he left before the invasion) but claims to speak for his countrymen and women actually living through the atrocities and attacks.
My country is supplying military aid to Ukraine via my tax dollars, so while I'm not directly fighting, my country and myself are assisting them in their effort to defend themselves against an unjustified invasion.
I am a veteran of my country's armed services, can you say the same?
I also never told him to go fight, but it seems pathetic and cowardly to sit behind a computer screen in another country, claim to speak on behalf of your home nation while propagating Russian-media talking points. So I stand by what I've said.
Do you think we'd be sending them weapons (and buying up their assets for pennies) if this battle wasn't yours?
My country is supplying military aid to Ukraine via my tax dollars
They've also supported Israel. By that logic, you, personally are assisting them in genocide.
I am a veteran of my country’s armed services, can you say the same?
I will serve crack before I serve this country. Look at every military action in this country's history since WWII. In none of them were we the good guys.
I also never told him to go fight
Oh fuck off. He knows more about the situation than you do. He is right there experiencing it.
Cede to Russian demands on a sovereign nation they have hostily invaded.
Russia was “prepared to end the war if we agreed to,—as Finland once did,—neutrality, and committed that we would not join NATO.” He importantly adds that the NATO promise was the “key point” for Russia and that “Everything else was simply rhetoric and political ‘seasoning’.”
Your source refutes your bullshit "Western pressure" argument, Russian pressure was to literally invade and try to use Ukrainian territory to leverage against Ukraine.
Arakhamiya is the third well placed official to make the claim that Russia’s primary reason for invading Ukraine was to stop NATO expansion east to its borders and, particularly, Ukraine’s NATO aspirations.
Your source essentially ignores that the war could have "stopped" before it started off Russia didn't choose to invade a sovereign nation specifically to spite NATO. But no, you're right I'm sure if they just stop fighting and roll over Russia certainly won't invade again and pull the same shit again.
Your idealism or stupidity is almost admirably idiotic.
Your source refutes your bullshit "Western pressure" argument, Russian pressure was to literally invade and try to use Ukrainian territory to leverage against Ukraine.
Quote needed :)
I've said that the west encouraged Zelensky to fight, and the part you've linked doesn't refute it.
if they just stop fighting
"They" can fight all they want, till the last person standing if they want. They are forcing other people to fight for them though.
That would be political pressure dipshit, your negotiator explains Russia invaded to pressure Ukraine to not join NATO before the West could encourage zelensky to fight.