Ukraine: Zelensky condemns "inhumane" Russia Christmas Day attack

Sure, but whataboutism doesn't change the gravity if this situation.

Genuine question; What is whataboutism on what I said?
- Zelensky said something about X You said "well he didn't do anything about Y"
  That's whataboutism. You may have meant it honestly, but ultimately what that kind of argument does is attempt to reduce zelenskys response to this action by comparing it to how he may have done something not as good in a different situation.
  
  Zelensky said something about X You said "well he didn't do anything about Y"
  That's whataboutism
  Thanks. I wasn’t certain what I meant.
  My point is; he condemns Russia but encouraged Israel to do the same thing (and worse) to Palestinians. That’s in my opinion, bullshit.
  But that’s my opinion and opinions differ.
  
  My point is; he condemns Russia but encouraged Israel to do the same thing (and worse) to Palestinians. That’s in my opinion, bullshit.
  Not really, not at all actually.
  See Iran, Qatar and Russian supported proxy groups reignited the Palestine-Israel conflict to derail a Israeli-Saudi peace deal (that would have benefited the Palestine Authority).
  https://www.britannica.com/topic/Israeli-Saudi-peace-deal
  
  Zelensky: Israel has ‘indisputable’ right to defend itself from terror and yet no word of him about what Israel is doing now against Palestinians. It’s all in the name of self-defense, I suppose.
  
  Your source is from the day of the attack and is worthless is this context.
- I didn't see your comment till just now. Sorry you got down voted. People are dumb for down voting you because you asked a question. I saw an answer, so have an upvote friend :)
  
  No worries, I don’t keep myself busy with up/downvote system. I actually disabled it a long while ago. Especially since it means nothing on Lemmy (as far as I know).
  People downvote me because they don’t agree with my opinion, that’s all.
  
  People down vote you because you act like someone without empathy.
  
  Yeah and if that's what they see and/ or believe, that's okay. Like I said, I do not care about down nor upvotes. I disabled it and pay no attention to it at all (it means nothing anyway). I stick to the opinion, I have and others do so as well. That's about it, I guess.
  Down and upvotes are fictional. Exit or stop using a platform that has it and then the up/downvotes has no influence. Besides that, the down/vote up on Lemmy does not restrict the user in any way.
  
  "I don't think about downvotes at all"
  
  I explained myself, that’s all. You seem to try to agitate me, therefore, I will ignore you from now on. Still enjoy your day though.

Is there any reason you're pointing out his alleged hypocrisy and not the hypocrisy of the Pope regarding child molestation? Are molested children just non-humans or something?

Since you are trying to change the subject, I won’t go into that. Find someone else.
- You already changed the subject yourself. I guess it's different when you do it.
  
  Okay, if you say so. You are also not obligated to debate or respond to whatever I write. Just as I’m not obligated to debate with him or you.
  It’s always different when I do it /s
  
  I do say so. The subject was Zelensky condemning Russia. Which has nothing to do with Israel. So telling someone else you refuse to talk to them if they change the subject is pretty damn amusing from someone accusing others of hypocrisy.
  
  I’m not obligated to debate without someone and it does have to do with Israel/Palestine because he’s condemning it on on-side but praising it on the other-side.
  Like I said, you’re not obligated either to debate/ comment. We have different opinions and that’s okay. I mean, we are both strangers to each other anyway.
  
  And yet it doesn't make you any less hypocritical.
  
  I think somewhere along our comments, we established that hypocrisy seems to be okay. So, I suppose, it’s okay now?
  
  Okay according to whom? Not according to you unless, apparently, you do it.
  You seem to think there are some sort of universal laws at work here.
  
  Re-read our comments, there’s your answer. I honestly find it quite funny that some of you got agitated when someone has a different opinion.
  
  It’s always different when I do it /s
  "If everywhere you go smells like shit, check your own shoe."
  
  I checked, luckily found nothing. Probably the horses outside?
- trying to change the subject
  Excellent point. Now consider if can be made on similar comments.
  
  Alright, I will take that into consideration.

The irony of your approach throughout this thread is that the Palestinians support russian genocidal imperialism.

I say this as a Ukrainian who leans towards the Palestinian side.

EDIT: In retrospective, it was wrong for me to say Palestinians in general support russian genocidal imperialism. A fairer approach would be to say that Palestinian leadership has generally espoused pro-russian statements, but they likely didn't have much choice.

I‘m Palestinian and absolutely we don’t. We’re tired of just literally ANYONE wanting to rule us. What happens in Palestine is a genocide, period. What happens in Ukraine is also a genocide. I don’t want to antagonize you, but I’m honestly curious what you mean by „leaning towards“ the Palestinian side.
To me, imperialism needs to be abolished and I don’t care if the US or Russia or Iran or China does it. And imo Zelenskyy is a piece of shit for appeasing to Israel while they do literally the same to Palestinians that Russia does to Ukrainians. And in that sense, I will always be against the oppressor and it sounds a bit like there would be anything else to what happens to Palestinians than genocide & colonization.
That being said I wish you victory and peace.
- I think this is an unfortunate case where I understand his silence. It’s realpolitik. He’s fighting a war to save his country from imperialism so he doesn’t want to alienate a potential source of aid. I think places like the US and the EU are far more culpable in their complicity because they don’t have that same kind of desperate need. Quite the opposite even, they actively enable
  
  I get why people want to think that it’s just realpolitik but then he‘d need to be actually silent. He has always been vocally pro-Israel though. Israel has surely escalated things by magnitudes since October 7 but they’ve been colonizing us for more than 100 years now, so it’s not like the dynamics were different before October 7.
  As an example this article from April this year: https://kyivindependent.com/zelensky-calls-allies-to-defend-ukraine-recalling-iranian-attack-on-israel-on-april-14/
  ”By defending Israel, the free world demonstrated that unity (among allies) is not only possible but 100% effective," Zelensky said after a meeting with top military and security officials . "The allies' decisive actions prevented the success of terrorism and loss of infrastructure and forced the aggressor to cool down. The same can be done to defend Ukraine from terrorism, and Ukraine, just like Israel, is not a NATO member."
  And at this point it was already abundantly clear that there’s a genocide happening in Gaza, he could have said many things but he chose those exact words. Maybe he just doesn’t care about Palestinian life if he can get more weapons, maybe he actually believes what he’s saying, either way it’s not a good look on him. That being said, I don’t think he’s particularly bad, he’s just not better than any other hypocritical politician.
- Thank you for the kind words. I do appreciate it. I genuinely mean it.
  What is happening in Palestine is genocide. I would be a hypocrite if I didn't agree with this. My somewhat aloof statements are because I don't speak Arabic or Hebrew and I've never been to Israel/Palestine. But yes, Israeli actions are colonialist and genocidal (both current actions and the broader historical context). You don't need to speak Arabic or Hebrew to see this.
  FWIW, I think Zelenskyy has a much more negative attitude of Netanyahu specifically and Israel's policies than his statements would lead you to believe. We don't have any other options because we are critically dependent on aid from US and EU. Ukraine has provided aid to Gaza and Zelenskyy has made (subtle) public statements that suggest thinking beyond a simplistic pro-Israel approach.
  Palestinian leadership has definitely been pro-russia in their statements. It was wrong for me to say Palestinians in general support russian genocidal imperialism. That being said, I don't hold it against them (as in my OP, I lean toward the Palestiniain side) as they don't really have any choice.
- Zelensky is Jewish and I hope he believes in the letter Albert Einstein wrote to the New York Times in 1948.
Where you’re from, doesn’t matter to me. But if* you see it that way, that’s okay.
- I am just pointing out that you have a sophomoric if not outright childish attitude in this thread.
  You're basically LARPing. If anything the Ukrainian government (privately) has a more negative attitude towards Israel than the public at large (and even with respect to the Ukrainian public, there arguably has been a change over time).
  You don't speak Ukrainian, you've never lived in Ukraine. You have no understanding of Ukrainian attitudes around what's going in Israel/Palestine.
  And to be honest, it is reasonable to assume you don't really care about the plight of the Palestinians. It's mostly a theatrical thing for you.
  
  I wonder if they've ever taken the time to talk to a Palestinian about what they think? I doubt it.
  
  Most probably just see the Israel Arab conflict as another wing of the same global war that Ukraine is involved in. to Kyiv, Israel is fighting against an amalgamation of terrorist groups and states that are all allied with the aggressor Russia, and some of them are directley aiding Russia's invasion of Ukraine Iran.
  Thus, when you're being sold out and stabbed in the back every day, you have to resort to ruthless pragmatism, you can be Pro Ukraine, and Anti-Israel, but you should also recognize that the side fighting against Israel, is also fighting against Ukraine.
  
  Most probably just see the Israel Arab conflict as another wing of the same global war that Ukraine is involved in. to Kyiv, Israel is fighting against an amalgamation of terrorist groups and states that are all allied with the aggressor Russia, and some of them are directley aiding Russia’s invasion of Ukraine Iran.
  This is actually somewhat close to the Ukrainian public's perception of the Israel/Palestine conflict. Well, the part of the public that follows what's going, most people have more pressing concerns.
  Thus, when you’re being sold out and stabbed in the back every day, you have to resort to ruthless pragmatism, you can be Pro Ukraine, and Anti-Israel, but you should also recognize that the side fighting against Israel, is also fighting against Ukraine.
  I personally have a skeptical view of the Israeli government and I don't think there is anything Ukraine can do with respect to gaining Israeli support (although I understand and even support the "PR needs" with respect to the US). I get the impression the Netanyahu government is basically a corrupt, oligarch-run ethno-supremacist movement. And the statement by Israel’s finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich:
  “No one in the world will allow us to starve 2 million people, even though it might be justified and moral in order to free the hostages.”
  Sounds very russian to me.
  
  Like they give a fuck about hostages. They killed a ton of Israelis on october 7th.
  
  Hamas did kill a lot of civilians on october 7th. This does not in any way justify the statements by Smotrich.
  I stand by statement that Smotrich's statement has a very "russian" quality to it.
  
  Most of the dead on october 7th were civilians. Yes, they killed a lot of Israeli soldiers, ambushing them in their outposts. But they killed far more unarmed non-combatants.
  
  I meant the Israelis killed Israelis that day too. I was implying if they cared about hostages they wouldnt shoot them.
  
  Zelenskyy's Jewish, right?
  
  "Jew" and "Israeli" are not synonyms.
  
  I didn't say they were. I merely asked the question... which I knew the answer to already.
  Sure, not all Jews hate and kill Palestinians, but Palestinians are hated and killed by Jews.
  
  Palestinians are hated and killed by non-Jews too, because it's not only Jews in the IDF and not only Jews are Israeli citizens.
  So you are still making 'Jew' and 'Israeli' synonyms.
  And some of us have been working very hard to make this war stop. People like you are not helping, bringing up Zelensky being Jewish as if that is relevant here. All you are doing is promoting the disgusting "dual loyalties" bigotry. I've faced it myself many times. Including on Lemmy. There are people here who are absolutely convinced I support Israel no matter what I say.
  
  And I am sure there are people who are absolutely convinced I'm antisemitic (a term that gets thrown around way too often and has no relation to the actual true meaning of the term "Semite"). Personally, I don't care for anyone's primitive monotheistic religious beliefs, Jewish or otherwise.
  Zelenskyy, in my opinion, is an American imperialist tool just like Netanyahu. Could you imagine America's response if the ball was on the other foot and unfriendly powers were encroaching on their borders? There's a reason that Ukraine isn't in NATO already. It's a fragile democracy at best and corrupt to the core at worst.
  As for the IDF, I'd be interested to find out the percentage of Jews to non-Jews that serve, but given that 65% of the Jewish Israeli population oppose the criminal prosecution of soldiers suspected of gang-raping Palestinian prisoners held in torture facilities, I'm guessing the percentage is high.
  
  Suggesting that Zelensky has dual loyalties because he's Jewish is a bigoted thing to say.
  I’m guessing the percentage is high.
  And yet not 100% as you implied earlier. Which, again, was bigoted.
  Whether or not you think you're not antisemitic, what you said was bigoted.
  
  I believe he made a statement about converting to Orthodox Christianity. I personally think this was a political move.
  To be honest, I don't think he believes in the religious polemics of Judaism or Ukrainian Orthodox Christianity.
  I am talking about the detailed religious polemics. Theological axioms. I am an atheist, but I support the Orthodox Church of Ukraine, smaller (pro-Ukrainian) Christian denominations and Crimean Tartar muslim organizations. I would even go as far as saying the government should support them with tax money.
  
  I think they said that to try to suggest that Zelensky has dual loyalties. Not something Jews are un-used to hearing.
  The fun thing in my case is that I'm a U.S. citizen and, because my dad was British and I fit certain requirements, I just got my British citizenship. So I guess I have triple loyalties?
  
  Yeah, the multiple loyalties thing is complete BS.
  If that was the case Zelensky would have evacuated to Lviv as per American recommendations. He is clearly not a person to give up.
  And I didn't even vote for him in 2019 (wasn't a big fan of his opponent, but there were other issues at play).
  
  What you think of me, lets me cold. Think what you want to think of me. I won’t try to change your mind.
  
  I am just pointing out that you have no clue what you are talking about.
  Your polemics don't really make any sense (if you actually follow official gov relationships between Ukraine and Israel) and you don't even understand the basics of Ukrainian attitudes towards Israel/Palestine.
  So why the fuck are you talking about this with such fake confidence?
  
  Yes, yes. You are right, I have no clue /s.
  
  You don't though. You have zero knowledge about Zelensky beyond some high-level english language news articles. You don't even speak Ukrainian. You've never lived in Ukraine.
  You are acting in bad faith. Contrarianism for contrarianism's sake. You are harming the Palestinian cause with your attitude. That's why I said you don't actually care and you're just doing this for theatrics.
  
  Yeah, you’re totally right. Hundred percent /s. Like I said, I won’t change your mind.
  
  You really don't.
  We all think you're a disengenous fool who justifies Russian atrocities under the guise of being "just".
  
  You see, I don’t care what “you all think”. This is my opinion and that’s it. Just because I find Zelensky a hypocrite, does not mean, I agree with Russia did. But if that’s what you want to believe, that’s okay.
  Just think what you want to think. I stick to my opinion and you stick to yours.
  I find it immensely funny though, instead of making this about the actual argument. People are making this about me, personally lol.
  Anyway, it’s another day. I’ll stop responding and enjoy my day.

It's almost like he needs every country in the world with large defense industries to help him out or something, isn't it?

Yeah, certainly. But what about Palestinian lives? Don’t they deserve the recognition, human rights and such? Apparently that’s entirely different for Zelensky.
- Yeah, certainly. But what about Palestinian lives? Don’t they deserve the recognition, human rights and such? Apparently that’s entirely different for Zelensky.
  But what about Palestinian lives?
  But what about
  what about
  Earlier in the thread you asked what was the "whataboutism" in your question. Went ahead and highlighted the approximate location. Hope that helps.
  
  Oh, yeah. Thanks so you are on the “what”? I can rephrase it; “Why are Palestinian lives being ignored by Zelensky and he seems to be totally encouraging the same thing to happen to the Palestinians which is happening to his own people; innocents being murdered”
  EDIT: rephrased it even better.
  
  Rephrasing it doesn't change the message. People are allowed to focus on the most pressing matter at hand.
  Have the Palestinians appropriately denounced Russia's invasion of Ukraine? I mean it's like they don't even want help. They're all "I'm getting bombed and systematically murdered." and not a peep about Ukraine. Truly despicable behavior. /s
  
  Palestinians don’t really get the platform Zelensky gets do they? I get your sarcasm though.
  Yeah and just as people are allowed to focus on “most pressing matter at hand”, I’m allowed to say it’s hypocrisy and stick to my opinion.
  
  Why are Palestinian leaders ignoring Ukrainian lives? Why aren’t they condemning Russias attack?
  
  Good question and why should they when Zelensky said Israel has every right to defend themselves (despite Israel has been occupying, terrorizing, torturing the Palestinians)?
  Besides that, I would not know.
  
  To my knowledge, Zelenskyy only expressed support for Israel after October the 7th, 2023, over a year and a half after Russia launched its full scale invasion of Ukraine — a year and a half during which Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Palestinian Authority could have condemned Russia's war against Ukraine. They didn't, presumably, for the same reason Zelenskyy has expressed support for Israel: to avoid antagonizing their allies, morals be damned. Given their dire situation –both Ukraine and the Palestinians rely heavily on their respective allies for military and diplomatic support–, I think we ought to give them a pass. If you disagree, at least apply the same logic to both and condemn them equally.
- Apparently Zelensky realizes that telling Israel to fuck off right now would be a bad idea what with him fighting an invading force.
  But I'm sure righteous indignation wouldn't have any repercussions.
  
  Once again, does not take away the hypocrisy. But I’m sure, it’s alright. Right? Hypocrisy is normal, I suppose.
  It’s entirely normal to say, it’s okay to flatten an entire area, murder people in the name of self defense and then condemn when it happens to your own country.
  
  Yes, it is entirely normal to take a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" approach in war. Even if the enemy is monstrous themselves.
  Or do you think the Allies would have beaten the Nazis if they said, "Stalin is a murderer and a ruthless autocrat. We shall not be working with him and we condemn his genocide in Ukraine?" Because I'm betting no.
  
  Once again, hypocrisy. Just because he’s fighting for his own country and is against Russia. Does not mean, everyone should just be okay with the hypocrisy.
  But, alright I see. It’s normal.
  
  I can't speak for you, but I'd rather live a hypocrite than die at the hands of a Russian or North Korean soldier.
  
  Alright, well I agree with you. Would not want to die too. Still I stick to my opinion.
  
  It would only be hypocrite if Ukraine supports Israel.
  Afaik they are neutral and too busy with their own affairs.
  Who even says Ukraine doesn't condemn Israel?
  
  Zelensky said that Israel has “right to defend itself” (while they’re the occupiers). I linked that somewhere in another comment.
  
  So that one statement implies support?
  
  Israel are occupiers, yes, but Hamas attacked territories which everyone agrees are solidly Israel, and not occupied Palestine. Which, on first glance, is a-ok until you recognise that the whole thing was 5% attacks on military targets and 95% war crimes.
  Oh, side note: Russia drew up the battle plan and trained Hamas to execute it. As far as Ukraine is concerned Hamas is a friend of their enemy, no different from Iran or North Korea.
  Also I really don't vibe with you equating Palestinians and Hamas. Smells of hasbara.
- Apparently you are not aware that Zelenskyy is not invading Palestine.
  
  Wow, I did not know that. Thanks for pointing that out /s

Whataboutists can fuck all the way off with their bad-faith "arguments"...

That’s alright, great conversation.

https://unwatch.org/database/country/ukraine/

0% For Israel 0 resolutions

77% Against Israel 114 resolutions

23% Abstain on Israel 35 resolutions

Because he knows if he does, the US will reconsider support.

Yeah, of course. But quite the hypocrisy to condemn one and not the other.
- It's between that and annihilation. I'd probably hold my tongue too.
  
  Does not take away that’s immensely hypocritical. Especially since what Russia is doing, is Israel doing to the Palestinians.
  
  Had putin condemned Israel?
  
  Don’t think that matters since Putin is also murdering innocent people. Both Israel and Russia and their regime are shit.
  
  So we need to hold Zelensky to a higher standard about a conflict he is not and does not want to be involved in. Got it.
  
  If that’s what you understood from what I wrote, that’s not my problem.
  
  Well, see, it is, because that's what you're communicating. If you want people to understand your words then please use them appropriately.
  
  This is the best I can do, English isn’t my native language.