California enslaves 400 prisoners to fight wildfires.
California enslaves 400 prisoners to fight wildfires.
www.theguardian.com
‘Essential’: nearly 400 incarcerated firefighters deployed as LA battles wildfires
85 comments
-
Fire camp is a program that most prisoners actually want to get into. They get to learn useful skills, the accommodations are better, and the prisoners there don't want to get removed from the program so they're unlikely to be violent. I have a friend who spent 3 years in that program and he greatly preferred it to the prison he transferred from.
-
Tolerable accommodations, learning skills that can be put to use on the outside, and no fear of violence should be some of the basics of a prison system. The fact that our prison system is so fucked that slavery seems like a better deal isn't a credit to slavery, it's evidence of a horrifically broken prison system.
-
Our prison system absolutely has some major flaws, but fire camp is what you said, tolerable conditions, the ability to learn job skills and work outside, and learn a skill. You can't guarantee safety from violence among violent people unless they are isolated, and that's a worse punishment than anything. What I'm saying is that your criticisms of the general prison system aren't applicable to fire camp, because it offers the things you mentioned.
-
you're missing the point: the slaves who embrace their slavery are treated better than the slaves who resist; like slaves are supposed to do.
-
-
-
-
Getting paid 50 cents an hour to get put in a life-threatening situation because the state doesn't want to hire firefighters, and would rather pay its prison population a pittance.
-
Are you under the impression that these prisoners are the only people fighting the fires in California? That is not the case, if that's your impression.
-
Apologies, yes california does employ some ppl to fight fires with the help of some slaves, my bad.
-
-
Good people don't make excuses to abuse human beings.
You're a bad person.
-
-
don't make excuses to abuse human beings
You realize that's not what you're replying to, right? That suggesting lots of people are fighting fires doesn't actually advocate for slavery; right?
Your quick condemnation was neat-o, though.
-
The post they're replying to is nitpicking. What difference does it make to this argument if only some of the firefighters are slaves? The point is that slave labor is being employed to avoid paying all the people fighting the fire a reasonable amount.
-
-
-
-
-
Always a little disturbing to see these comments. Cause every single time they are made I see phrases like "most prisoners" just straight up acknowledging that it's not all. Hand waving that away. Creepy.
-
Not to mention other things like, is it actually true that most prisoners would want to get put in a life threatening situation?
And why are we not acknowledging that the US regime gives prisoners these "choices": go outside and die for the state, work on our prison farms, get contracted out to private companies, or stare at a wall in a cell. Truly an evil empire that should not be apologized for.
-
It's worse. If the basic prisonfood is insufficient, which is common. prisoners need to work to buy more nutritional meals. Or they can risk getting sick and dying, whichever.
-
go outside and die for the state
At least three incarcerated fireghters died between 2017 and 2020. That same article says there were 1,760 incarcerated firefighters working in July 2023. Non-incarcerated firefighters also risk death; here's two firefighters and a pilot who died in a helicopter crash, also from 2023. Quadrupling the known death rate among incarcerated workers gets us to 170 deaths per 100,000 workers. That's well below everything on this table besides "office and administrative support."
We rightly clown on cops for exaggerating how dangerous their jobs are. We are doing the same thing when we characterize this program as "go out and die for the state" or (as another commenter said) compare it to gladiators.
We don't need exaggerations to make the case for socialism, and exaggerating only hurts us. We're seeing that in this thread, where we're dogpiling people for agreeing that prison slavery exists in the U.S. but arguing that we are stretching that definition to the breaking point. Why are we fighting people who largely agree with us already?
-
Well how would you suggest we deal with people who harm other people? If you can't put them in a cell, and you can't make them work, and you can't teach them to be wilderness firefighters and have them perform those duties, then what do you propose?
-
There aren't many countries that employ slave labor like the US. You think they're the rule but they're the exception. Just because the US enslaves their prisoners doesn't mean most other countries do too.
-
-
Here's your very obvious answer. Instead of enslaving people, we could not do that.
-
-
-
-
That's avoiding the question and changing the subject though. I don't disagree with you on this point. But many of them do deserve to be there, my friend included, so how do you propose they're dealt with given the limitations you've placed on the system? What does your prison look like?
Edit: I just realized you're not the person who I was replying to originally, so I apologize for saying "you said".
-
Given your history, I have my doubts that your friend is real, and one doesn’t need a holistic crime reduction plan in order to be anti-slavery.
-
You know nothing about me, let alone "my history". That's also what I suspected, you have no proposed solutions, only complaints. You can't support your own argument, so instead you attacked me. I'm not pro-slavery, dufus, I'm acknowledging that fire camp is a good program for dealing with criminals, many of whom have hurt people and society, while also providing them with an opportunity to learn job skills, and work outside. For the record I'm opposed to the vast majority of the US prison system, especially the length of confinement.
-
For the record I’m opposed to the vast majority of the US prison system, especially the length of confinement.
That’s good to hear.
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
I don't presume to know the minds of every person. I do know that my friend was glad to get into the program, as was everyone else he told me about who was in it.
-
Then why do you need slavery?
Just let prisoners apply for jobs like sane countries
-
If you're not presuming that then why did you say most prisoners instead of just the one single one you claim to know?
-
Do you lack reading comprehension?
"as was everyone else he told me about who was in it"
-
So you're supposed friend told you about most of the prisoners in the program? What percentage precisely?
-
-
-
Did you ever ask your friend, if given the choice of having the same options to improve their conditions but without having to work, would they have still chosen fire camp?
-
-
-
'The slaves that joined the gladiator arena to fight for their freedom actually WANT to be there dont you understand?, They give the gladiators valuable skills, nicer jail cells. I had a friend that spent 3 years as a gladiator and he actually preferred it to being a slave'
-
That just shows how bad the alternatives are.
-
Yes the alternatives suck. But are you aware that there's people who volunteer to be wilderness firefighters for free? Fire camp is a good program.
-
But then those prisoners aren't allowed to be hired by professional fire crews after release.
Theu can't apply the skills they learn.
-
Source? As far as I can find, there are no laws in the US banning felons from being firefighters. A company can deny an application because of it, but it's case-by-case, not some countrywide thing.
-
-
When was the last time you fought wildland fires for free?
-
-
-
And then when they get out they can't use those skills because their criminal record prevents fire departments from hiring them.
-
Cal-fire will hire them directly out of prison if they've completed the program.
-
Cal-fire will hire them directly out of prison
No, they wont. They will give them the right to apply their is no guaranteed job at the end of it.
Inmates makeup 30% of the fire service in Cali; what a fun way to cut salary costs, hire slaves.
-
https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/24/us/felon-firefighters-california/index.html
It's still far too hard for someone who's already done the job while incarcerated to get hired for the same job when they get out. It does happen, though, and there has been recent progress on making it easier.
-
-
-
-
85 comments