Israeli strike hits Rafah area after Hamas barrage
Israeli strike hits Rafah area after Hamas barrage
The Hamas-run health ministry in Gaza says dozens of people have been killed in a refugee camp.
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Dozens of people have been killed or injured in a blast at a refugee camp in the Rafah area, the Hamas-run health ministry in Gaza has said.
The rocket barrage highlights the threat Hamas still poses to people across Israel, although there were no reports of injuries.
No reports of injuries in Israel and dozens of Palestinians injured or dead in Rafah, but Hamas is still the 'big threat'.
Really getting sick of this bs reporting.
It’s because they are desperately trying to frame this as Israel responding to a terrorist attack rather than Israel openly defying the International court of justice order to stop bombing civilians.
Israel is openly committing genocide while actively trying to frame this as defense of their borders, which could have worked as a strategy had not everything they have stated and said been proven absolute lies, to the point where they got their feelings hurt and had to openly assasinate journalists so that what they say can no longer be shown to be lies.
They are trying to discredit the casualities numbers by saying it's coming from hamas run health ministry while the world health organization said that there is no reason to doubt the numbers
*No reason to doubt the numbers
What I have heard is that Palestinians are incredibly good at taking notes / data and statistics. They have record keepers in the hospitals whose entire jobs are counting the casualties and dead. That's where the numbers that are exact to a single casualty come from.
Why are they firing rockets?
People invaded their country and killed their families.
Are you talking about Hamas or Israel? I thought they were firing rockets because they didn’t want to give up their hostages
Netanyahu paid a leader of Hamas who convinced some ignorant hate filled Palestinians to do it to justify shooting bombs at defenseless women and children in a refugee camp
Hold on a second. This is the most stupid take. Just because someone is firing rockets and those rockets miss doesn't mean the other side has no justification to defend itself. Fuck Israel, but come on guys. Use what's left of that brain for a second.
In my country we have a law that self defense has to be proportional and you are only allowed to use enough force to stop the attack.
It can't be like "the guy down the street threw a rock through my window so I go and kill his whole family in their beds".
Proportionality is international law: https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/api-1977/article-51
Gotta love this thinking here.
So tell me, should the US have stopped attacking Japan once they’d matched the ~2.4k soldiers killed at Pearl Harbor?
Or should the allies have stopped “genociding” Nazi Germany once they’d matched Hitler’s body count?
OF COURSE NOT. This isn’t about tit for tat. Especially when going after an enemy that is openly committee to your annihilation. Israel certainly appears to be doing a shit job of it, but there is no need to muddy the waters with specious arguments.
You're mixing up things. Proportionality is a specific thing about scale. It doesn't say you're not allowed to respond to failed attacks.
You can for example evaluate the likely future harm your enemy would cause if you don't stop them and then apply the proportionality principle to that when you try to stop them. Or evaluate likely harm if somebody else attempted and succeeded with an attack you just stopped, and decide what kind of deterrence is needed based on that.
And Israel isn't just doing a shit job of it. they're not doing it at all
That's great and all. I'm sure that works at the individual level. When your country enters an active war none of that matters, does it? So why bring it up?
Of course it matters! If your enemy kills 3 innocent people on your side and you retaliate by killing a million people on their side, it matters a whole fucking lot.
Hamas is bad. Very few people will dispute that. Israel has proven that, at this point in time, it is far worse because it kills far more innocent people.
Discourse on Lemmy is so stupid. It's so stupid. Like Facebook boomer stupid.
Is the IDF counter-attack proportional or is it excessive compared to what Hamas is doing? I would say it's absolutely excessive. How is that excess justified? I would urge you guys to put more thought into any of this discourse beyond "genocide; colonialism; apartheid; imperialism". Please, for the love of god. Try. When you use cheap logic, all you do is give more fodder to IDF --and I'm not a fan of IDF.
If I take your claim and analyze it logically it's not sound at all. The typical numbers game to counter whether the occupation is justified: More civilians dead = IDF bad. Pause. Think about this statement for a second. Do we measure justification for war based on the number of casualties incurred? When the allies bombed Dresden, did we find reason to defeat the Nazis even though many civilian casualties occurred? Yes, a calculated risk was made.
The question is: What ought the IDF do in this scenario with Hamas perpetually shelling them with rockets by planting themselves in civilian areas?
Dresden was a horrendous war crime too.
I can see how it's harder for you to argue against war crimes from other nations if you're an apologist for war crimes committed by your own ancestors.
But many of us don't need to jump through those particular rhetorical hoops. The barrage of war crimes in WW2 was part of the impetus for strengthening international law against that shit.
Agreed. Kurt Vonnegut wrote all about what he witnessed firsthand at Dresden. It was a war crime. "The good guys" can commit war crimes.
I never said it wasn't horrendous. Clearly the rules of engagement back then were different. That's not what is being discussed though is it? What do you think I'm saying? Can you TRY to steel man my position or do you only like to hear yourself?
@TheFonz I'm sorry but you haven't expressed your position clearly enough for me to summarize and I'm not interested in trying to forensically reconstruct it from your comments as it's too ameliorised.
Like I said above, this conversation isn't some kind of game for points. It's just us talking about our views.
or do you only like to hear yourself
False dichotomy, and a bit of a swing and a miss.
That's right. Because you can't engage with others in good faith. You can't even call out logical fallacy correctly. Why are you posting here anyway? What's your goal?
If you can't even summarize my position, then who are you engaging with at this point?
I'm comfortable with my level of engagement thanks.
You seem to have used personal insults on half the people in the thread at this point, and you keep complaining about Lemmy.
I get that you're frustrated that we're not talking about whatever it is you want to talk about, but that's life sometimes.
... with Hamas perpetually shelling them
Yeah, you're wrong.
Hamas launched a barrage of rockets at central Israel on Sunday afternoon, setting off air-raid sirens in the Tel Aviv area for the first time since at least late January Source
"central israel". Key word. Also, not connected to what we're discussing. But thanks for sharing, I guess?
Sorry... you're comparing what Israel is doing right now to what allies did to a city in the country that was itself perpetrating the genocide? A country that was also itself invading Allied nations?
Is this opposite day or something?
Nop. I'm contesting your logic. Not comparing the countries. We are examining whether your logic holds up to scrutiny.
I don't even know what you think my logic is beyond "the more innocent people you kill, the less morally justified your position becomes."
Can you give an example of when that is not the case? Because I don't know too many people who think that the bombing of Dresden was morally justified.
Ok, so if Hamas kills more people that automatically makes Israel's actions justified?
Yeah Germany also claimed it was attacked by Poland in 1939. Guess everything after was justified then... The US claimed to have been attacked by North Vietnam. Guess Vietnam was aokay then. Putin claimed to have been attacked by Ukraine before invading. Guess we should consider everything since then as self defense...
You're saying because some countries lied about needing defense no country should be allowed to defend themselves? What exactly is your point here? Is it possible some countries actually need to defend themselves?
Proportionality is simply not dependent on the question of who "started first" and you will always find something that is credibly or uncredibly put forth as "the beginning". This is why Israel tries to claim it all started on Oct. 7. This is why Germany argued Poland started arming and preparing for war first. This one is even technically true, but ignores the context of Germany already announcing its Lebensraum ideology back then.
That is the problem. There is a both a larger context and a direct context to the question of proportionality, where there is no plus points for being "just retaliating". Retaliation can be a legitimate goal, but only in the context of deterring from further attacks, like Iran did after the embassy attack.
proportionality is not dependent on who started first
Who claimed that? Did I claim that? I don't think I did, did I?
you lost me at "planting themselves in civilian areas"
You're right. Hamas are so brave they are fighting out in the open fields day and night.
dude, no one gives a fuck about the Hamas, it's a fight against the IDF and innocent civilians
Ok
Going to fight against Nazi Germany for comparison of porportional counter attacks is really dumb when the Nazis killed more civilians than all their enemies during WWII combined. And it is not like the russians did not kill those in retaliation aswell, it was just impossible to catch up (we are going to ignore what Stalin did outside of fighting germany for this comment). Comparing a power capable of subjugating nearly a whole continent in the span of some months (all while planning and executing the murder of millions of civilians) with hamas got to be a bad joke.
You’re incorrect. War has escalation of force for modern militaries. My rules of engagement in Iraq were the similar to the poster above you. If someone threw a rock at me I couldn’t just shoot them.
You must not be a part of the IDF. They firmly believe that throwing rocks deserves getting shot
Cool. Are we talking about people throwing rocks?
No, we're talking about people lobbing a handful of rockets at a multi-billion dollar defense system that is more than capable of stopping such a small attack. Kind of like throwing rocks at a tank.
Then we're talking about a response of bombing tents that have no defense system. Kind of like using a tank to fire shells at a person in response to a rock being thrown.
It's just a handful rockets, amirite?
It's called an example. I was demonstrating escalation of force. You should maybe rethink how you talk to people. Being so rude and confrontational isn't going to bring people to your side of the argument.
Yeah, ok but perhaps be careful with the example you choose. There are people here who genuinely believe Hamas is literally fighting only with rocks. Escalation of force is a discussion to be had, but no one here is interested in that.
I'm not interested in people coming to my side, because oddly enough, more often than not I'm actually aligned with the people criticizing me on the actual positions.
My issue is more with people not coming to sound conclusions using sound arguments and just repeating sound bytes from social media. They aren't capable of engaging with any of these topics beyond really superficial levels.
Your issue is that you have already come to a conclusion, and your issues aren't issues to anyone but you. Give me an example of someone saying Hamas is literally fighting with rocks as an actual answer.
Because it's a sound principle.
Genociding tens of thousands of people, half of whom are children, is not self defense.
because it's a sound principle genociding children is not self-defense
You guys are just incapable of steel-manning the opposite side. It's like you put zero thought into any of these arguments. The only thing you are capable of doing is repeating these superficial platitudes. At least try.
I hate the IDF, and I think their response is not proportional to the attack that Hamas levies, and I can counter it. But at least I know the counter-argument. You guys can't think past a sound-byte. When you repeat these platitudes without thinking them through, all you do is provide more fuel for the IDF.
@TheFonz I'm finding this conversation a bit puzzling.
You sort of sound like you want this discussion to cover all those tired Hasbara "talking points" and their common rebuttals on Americam discuasions or something, hence IsRaEl HaS A Right to DeFenD ItSelf.
This isn't a game or a logic 101 essay though. It's ordinary people from multiple countries discussing a humanitarian catastrophe that has killed over 37000 people.
Fonz is a long term Zionist that has been heavily defending israel committing Genocide for the last 8 months
Zionism has just become so unpopular that online Zionists now pretend they don't support the IDF but just "see the nuance'.
@Linkerbaan aah that makes sense, thanks for the explanation. I couldn't work out what on earth they were getting at.
Linkerbaan is lying. I've told him expressly several times on these boards that I am against the IDF. But of course none of that matters because this person can't engage with the topic either in good faith.
Why are you lying? I've told you expressly many times I'm against the IDF. So now you have to lie? Says all I need to know about you guys. I find this very fascinating.
Hey @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world : Linkerbaan called me a Zionist, which I find extremely offensive, especially after I've repeatedly told him I'm pro-palestine. I just wanted to make the record clear here in case there's any confusion. I wonder what kind of warning Linkerbaan will get.
There is a flagging system. Use it. Don't whine. I shouldn't have to tell you this.
Very fascinating indeed. Tell me more about how israel is not committing Genocide.
Yep, that's exactly what I wrote. You got me bro. Thanks for the charitability. Appreciate it. If only there was another possible explanation...perhaps written in a post two comments above. Oh wait, that would involve actually reading what people write and engaging with their points. That's too hard for Lemmy I suppose.
OP: "you guys repeat superficial platitudes"
Also OP: "what is IDF ought to do, when hamas launches rockets, while hiding behind civilians?"
It's because you guys cannot even engage with that. That's as far as we can get on this platform.
Then by all means, go to FB if you're more familiar with that kind of communication
Excellent contribution. Par for the course. Lemmy politics: you are so brave and nuanced
Tell that to the tens of civilians they murder every time they fire a rocket strike into civilian areas.
A country is still responsible for the war crimes they commit, Israel just thinks it's above being held to account for war crimes, including genocide.
That's not what we're talking about, is it? Can you guys engage? Or do you just love the sound of your voice?
Israel suffered no injuries or casualties as the rockets were shot down or fell into fields.
So Israel's response was overkill, which is par for the course.
Why do Jews need mass casualties in order to defend their homeland?
Israelis. Not Jews. I am a Jew. The IDF is not defending my homeland. Do not call us all Israelis, that's bigoted.
From what, exactly? Refugees trying to survive after Israel blew up their homes? That's who was in the camp Israel blew up.
