This is Fine Rule
This is Fine Rule
EDIT: here's a source for that figure
Previous studies have estimated that 73% of all antimicrobials sold globally are used in animals raised for food
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7766021/pdf/antibiotics-09-00918.pdf
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Sorry ya'll, but if you are still shoveling these idiots money for most of your meals, then you personally are the problem. You should feel guilty every time you do it. You are hurting yourself. You are hurting your children. Tou are hurting your granchildren and future generations. You are hurting strangers. You are hurting everyone you care about. You are doing this all out of addiction and laziness. Not to mention the extreme torture that you are inflicting on the animals. It is time to grow up and take responsibility. You are not innocent because "other people do it too." You are guilty. Please admit this very clear fact to yourself and do better.
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Sjjjdjd::
and a well rounded vegan diet is not cheap.
Not the person you are replying to, but want to counter that part specifically. The cost is actually usually the other way around. It's much more of a privilege to consume large amounts of meat and dairy
From a modeling study looking at healthy plant-based diets:
It found that in high-income countries:
• Vegan diets were the most affordable and reduced food costs by up to one third.
• Vegetarian diets were a close second.
• Flexitarian diets with low amounts of meat and dairy reduced costs by 14%.
• By contrast, pescatarian diets increased costs by up to 2%.
https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-11-sustainable-eating-cheaper-and-healthier-oxford-study
From some real world spending data
Based on primary data (n = 1040) collected through an online survey, representative of the Portuguese population, through logistic regressions, it was possible to conclude that plant-based consumers, particularly vegan, are associated with lower food expenditures compared to omnivorous consumers. In fact, plant-based consumers are shown to spend less than all other consumers assessed
https://agrifoodecon.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s40100-022-00224-9
Compared to meat eaters, results show that “true” vegetarians do indeed report lower food expenditures
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0921800915301488?via%3Dihub ---(looking at the US)
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Sjjjdjd::
People on plant-based diets tend not to eat a ton of plant-based meats, and lower income people are esspecially less likely to be relying on them because of cost?
I don't follow what you are saying about not being applicable to the US, and UK. Those countries are the modeling study most applies to and shows lower costs?
Additionally it's worth mentining if we look at other data, lower-income people are most likely to be vegan and vegetarian
Meanwhile, lower-income Americans (7%) are about twice as likely as middle- (4%) and upper-income (3%) Americans to be vegetarians . https://news.gallup.com/poll/510038/identify-vegetarian-vegan.aspx
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That's what the earlier sources looking at real world spending data did... they saw lower costs for people on plant-based diets
I am again confused why we're talking about bread here when that isn't affected by a plant-based or not plant-based diet
Do you know if it's reasonable / practicable to be vegeterian while doing keto? I've enjoyed how it makes me feel but the carb limit is difficult to meet without meat.
I know of people that do even vegan keto. There's actually a decently large subreddit for it. There are resources out there if you feel inclined to do so
I'd always caution people about keto in general though, esspecially for meat heavy keto. A lot of the discussion around it is not always the most scientific
Much of what people may be observing from keto is likely not as much due to carb limits, but from watching food closer. On most diets, people tend to report stuff like weight loss because they're more aware of what they eat. Or in other cases, changing foods around accidentally ends up avoiding a very specific food sensitivity. For instance you'll find lots of similar observations from a whole-foods plant-based diet
If it's not being done for reasons like epilepsy, Keto overall has some not so great long term health impacts that people tend to gloss over. Though much of that research finding more negative outcomes look at people doing so with a meat heavy diet. Ranging from bone health to kidney damage. If I remember correctly, the more limited research about vegan keto has found better results, but I'd still advise caution in general
TLDR; yes it's possible and there are people that do it, but just be careful about keto in general because it's got some long term impacts that aren't so great
Is there not a lot of conflicting evidence for, not keto specifically, but the role of fats and saturated fats (I believe the most concerning aspects of keto) in health? I did a bit of research before going on it and I think came to the conclusion it wasn't really backed as healthy nor unhealthy but couldn't be worse than eating garbage instead.
I'll be sure to check out the vegetarian / vegan keto subreddits though! Might find some nice meals ideas.
Reading through some more scientific reviews article, it seems like a lot of the risk comes from animal-based product consumption particularly. For instance, one study found increased all-cause mortality for keto with higher animal product consumption and decreased levels for a plant-based keto diet. However, given that most studies aren't focusing on that, it's still hard to tell if there's other risks not being included there. Additionally, a lot of the touted benefits of keto appear to wane over time and don't end up doing all that much better than other diets
I'd still recommend just being careful about it
Longer-term effects [of Ketogenic diets] can include decreased bone mineral density, nephrolithiasis, cardiomyopathy, anemia, and neuropathy of the optic nerve (82, 121). Ketogenic diets have low long-term tolerability, and are not sustainable for many individuals (48, 49). Diets low in carbohydrate have also been associated with an increased risk of all-cause mortality (122), although recent data suggest that lower-carbohydrate diets can be linked to either higher or lower mortality risk, depending on the quality of the carbohydrate they contain and whether they rely more on animal protein and saturated fat or plant protein and unsaturated fat, respectively (123).
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnut.2021.702802/full#h1
Unfortunately, these effects seem to be limited in time.
And yet rice, beans/lentils, pasta, vegetables, and spices are all vegan, and are all the staples for low-cost meals in grocery stores the world over. Where do you live where that isn't the case?
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Sjjjdjd::
Fruits are also available but usually tend to be more expensive and are usually considered a treat for people on limited budgets. Me not listing them was part of keeping to the usual budget shopping lists recommend for people with limited income. Unless you are further being a pedant and insisting that tomatoes are fruits and not vegetables.
And while I am fortunate enough to live in the continental US, I mostly buy what is in season and local and therefore on sale for relatively cheap. And anywhere where that isn't available, frozen veggies are available, often for even cheaper and with no difference in nutritional value or content. If you don't have a fridge/freezer, dried veggies are also available in most markets (dried peppers especially) and canned goods are far better for you now than they ever have been, with only marginal decreases in nutritional value.
Where do you live that absolutely no vegetables are available in any form for a dollar a can or five dollars for a family pack that would make a couple dozen meals for a family of four?
(Edit: Or, if not in the US, where you can't even buy local produce, unless you are in an area where there is famine. In which case you may object to the fact that almost half our farmable land is used to grow crops to feed to animals instead of being used to grow more food for humans.)
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Dude, vegans can and do eat fruits. For people who can't afford seasonal fresh fruit, we have fortified foods like bread, pasta, rice, and cereals, most of which are also vegan. I specified rice and beans (and everything else you conveniently ignored, lol) because they make a complete protein, which is usually the only thing you need to monitor closely if you are vegan on a budget. Anything else and you are best off getting a multivitamin for best bang for your buck.
Also, you saying none of us have been hungry and then lecturing us about not getting both fruits AND vegetables when fresh fruit is one of the most expensive things in a grocery store, outside of meat that is? You clearly have never been poor enough that you have been needing to have your 'fruit' be the cheapest jar of grape jelly you can find, or the cans of frozen 'orange drink concentrate'.
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Lol now I know you're trolling. Have a good life.
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Sjjjdjd::
Beans and rice aren't replacing the fruits and vegetables part. People eating meat-based diets are also eating fruits and vegetables, or if not, they aren't going be healthy either
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This is more or less just repeating the original claim without addressing any of the other points brought up. I am also confused why we're talking about bread now when that's perfectly plant-based?
Anywhere where meat is not subsidised tto hell?
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Sjjjdjd::
You know you can't actually argue against it, so you point to a small hypothetical edgecase as if that will excuse your behavior. You are the one who lacks perspective and demonstrates extreme entitlement. You think because there may be some people forced between starvation and factory meat that it somehow gives you moral superiority and permission to destroy the lives of others. I go out of my way to make things better, you desperately search for anything you can to distract from all the harm you selfishly cause.
You don't even have the strength to let other people do the work. You feel like you need to go out of your way to attack and intimidate them because it makes you feel so inferior. Lucky for you, there are people on the planet to take care of things for you while you just sit by and moan and complain. We work for a better world despite you while you complain about our efforts, you entitled little brat.
Other people have handled you naivety well. Now, please do your part and fix your diet for the sake of everyone on the planet. You want to stand up for people, so stand up for them by showing some self-control.
I totally get you, but if you want really convince other people of doing the right thing you need to change your tone. This kind of approach is terrible, no one wants to be called evil or dumb for something they never had the time to think about it. You have to do better than that otherwise you are just preaching to people who agree with you.
Yeah, absolutely, you're totally right. That's definitely the most common way to go about it, and maybe the most effective, I really don't know. There is a bunch of gentle nudging going on, though, and everyone responds to different things. For some people, no amount of loving hints will get them to do anything. Some people just need the genuine blunt truth to get them to actually think about something. Honestly, it's like any other addiction, the desire needs to come from within, nobody can force them to get better.
I dont buy that many people are unaware or never thought about it before. It's brought up all the time. The issue isn't a lack of information, it is that most people just have almost no personal moral compass, they just rely on the behavior of the masses to dictate to them what is right/wrong. The more people remind them that what they are doing is disgusting, the more likely they will be to eventually change. I figure just machine gun 'em with all various forms of reminders, and we'll get through to some. Eventually, we will hit a critical mass, and the sheep will follow. The most pathetic will cling to their cruelty addiction until they are dead, but that's the same as what happened to the racists, rapists, child abusers or anything else that used to be more accepted.
There is no point in talking reasonably. This is our planet they are destroying.
Nah dude, get down from your horse and learn how to talk with people or just give up. Did you started believing this stuff because some asshole called you a dumb evil fuck? I think not.
Funnily enough I was called those names BECAUSE I believed in that stuff. Soo, ya know, it's time.
Oh yeah! Love my burgers from the Stockyard restaurant in Brighton. Occasionally, I'll get the filet. Oh my!!
It is NOT my fault the Earth is fucked.
Corporate and politicians can eat the shit out of the ass of every meat eater.
GFY for trying to blame the "little guy". You're a prick stain.
You can try to pass the blame onto them all you want, but the obvious reality is that the billionaires can't sell disgusting over-drugged factory farm meat to billions of people if billions of people don't buy it. They only have power if you willingly give it to them.
The game is over, YOU are the problem, and only YOU can stop your own disgusting habits. No more blaming everyone else for your own complete and utter lack of self-control. Live in your guilt. You are screwing us all over because you are unable to admit responsibility. You are an abusive husband who beats his wife and then blames her for it. Nobody with any amout of common sense is still believing your tired old excuses.
Future generations will know what you did, and you will disgust them. They won't even be able to comprehend how you could be so vile and uncaring. Get used to it, Grandpa. That's your future.
You militant vegans are hilarious, meat eating is not going away, get over it. You know how people don't like when religious people try and cram their shit down your throat? Yea... you're doing the same thing and it's really fucking annoying.
You are right. Meat-eating won't go away. Meat-eating is not the issue. Factory farming is. Pumping animals full of drugs in tiny cages and forcing them to live unnatural for your own selfish pleasure. That is what is going away. The fact that you'd defend it so viciously is what makes you so disgusting and pathetic. That is what will make future generations of school children laugh at their unevolved, brutal, self-centered ancestors. They will all deny that it was their bloodline that had people like you in them, those despicable people who knew what they were doing, saw the effect on the world, had the power to resist it, but were too weak and selfish to care and would rather make future generations deal with your mess. All so you can get a cheaper hotdog.
You want to talk about who is "religious" in this equation? It is undeniably YOU. Instead of grappling with moral issues with your own, you defer to the group. Your only excuse for your objectively disgusting behavior is the fact that "other people do it too." You inflict harm on the less fortunate for your own selfish reasons and when challenged you don't even attempt to use logic or reason to defend yourself, you simply go and run behind unrelated insults and a defense of group mentality. You are the virus that decent people people are inflicted with because you are too afraid of what you might realise if you were to try to think for yourself. You are the worst aspects of religion with any ounce of love or kindness surgically removed. If you ever have the guys to think clearly, you will be repulsed by who you once were.
You are still alive, you can change. It's just a question of whether or not you have the strength to do so.
If you will buy it, they will sell it.
Corperations are not people. They have no moral compass. They do what their customers will pay for.
Customers are people. Customers can choose based on any criteria. Convenience, morals, pleasure, whatever they value.
You are the customer. By buying from animal agriculture, you are saying you value what they are selling.
Yes, the thousands, millions, billions of customers matter. YOU are a customer. YOU MATTER. And if you choose to value something that is pure evil for all involved except your taste buds and their bottom line, then yes. You share in the blame. Especially now that you know what it causes.
Mmmm, veal Parm 😁
Did you at least kill him yourself? Or did you have to deepthroat Daddy Tyson’s throbbing meaty cock to underpay an immigrant getting PTSD to just to harvest a baby’s organs and pack them in a pwetty wittle gift baggie for you? uwu
Local farm. But, maybe one of their young kids did it. Sweet nightmare fuel for an 8 y/o.
bummer, some random on Lemmy says I should feel guilty, said it over and over, even!, guess I will change my ways
Ever wonder why those old racist people who are stuck in the past are how they are? It's because they think the same as you do. Unable to learn from those around them, obsessed with never growing, and utterly self-centered. You'll be tolerated, not respected. As increasingly more and more people point this out to you, the more likely you will be to change.
bummer now some random on lemmy who still doesn't know me thinks im an old fuddy duddy, what will i do!
surely this feedback is from a credible source with my own best interests in mind, i will certainly take your rando advice to heart.
i'm so glad i plan my life choices around what strangers on social media think. this'll work out great!
(do you get the point i'm trying to make? no matter how correct you are (or you think you are), you might as well be shouting at the wall. who the fuck would actually take your life advice to heart? you have no idea who we are; why would we change our behavior based on your opinion?)
I think on some level you know this but you just wanna preach. maybe you should have this conversation with someone special in your life. or maybe.... you know, the positions we argue most fervently are often ones we're trying to convince ourselves of. since we're giving unsolicited life advice, maybe think on that one?
I don't expect you to change because you read my comment. I just know that as time goes on, you will be hearing this more and more from more and more people. Eventually, it will come from people you know and care about. At some point, you may decide to be self-reflective and begin to think about your place in this world and what the consequences of your actions are. Maybe you won't though, I have an elderly neighbor that literally spits every time he sees an Asian person, maybe you will double down on your behavior into old age and be someone else's old neighbor that is stuck in the past being endlessly bitter towards the world for evolving without you.
At any rate, comments like mine are just sign posts on the road. The younger generation is already pissed at the selfish older generations. It's just the beginning, more signs are coming.
That's why I avoid eating meat and only stick to eating vegans.
Love plants, eat vegans
Honestly most meat tastes like shit anyways. And vegan alternatives taste amazing, are often prepared and ready to go into a meal and you don't have to worry about it being undercooked.
not really? farming meat doesn't necessarily have to involve so much antibiotics
sure you can reduce the amount of antibiotics used by reducing the throughput of meat but you can also just put in tighter regulations
We already have tightened regulations. In the USA you can no longer buy antibiotics off the shelf. You have to now get an RX. We here in the US aren't really the main driver of this. It's been mainly foreign beef production in countries where there is little regulation.
it's not just the antibiotics that are the issue. animal agriculture is a giant contributor to pollution of water, lands, and air as well as being a major cause for the destruction of rain forrests. the level of meat consumption in rich countries can not be scaled to the rest of the world.
thats ofc is ignoring that all animal agriculture is extremely fucking immoral and cruel and honestly unconscionable.
I bet you're the life of the party.
Maybe someday you'll get invited to the party so you can stop speculating about what's going on at it.
If you don't stop I'll eat my dam grandchildren, how would you feel about that bucko
I would be unsurprised by the natural progression of your selfish depravity. Hopefully, you take it far enough that you just eat yourself to death, and we can get to work fixing the selfish shitshow that you leave in your wake.