Is it better to leave a country, or stay behind to fight for it? And what about the ethics of fleeing instead of staying behind?
I mean, there are two side of the argument.
Pragmatically, fleeing would save your life.
But ethically, it feels cowardly. (I'm not calling anyone a "coward", its just how I internally feel about such an act, if I were the one doing it)
I think one has to decide if their country is worth fighting for or not.
I think it is. Not in a nationalistic sense - we've done a lot of harms in the world. Maybe more harm than good, even. But there's still a lot worth saving here. (USA)
If you just walk around and talk to people on the street, we're still one of the most progressive people around, despite everything. The US is a melting pot, a country of immigrants, and therefore a fierce battleground for ideas and ideologies. Right now the fascists are in power, but that doesn't make them the majority.
I really do think that if we get past this, we've got the "bones" to create something really great.
And that doesn't even include American culture. Sure, there's things I don't like, but there are some really good parts, too.
We're loud. Gregarious. We'll strike up conversations with complete strangers. Most Americans are culturally curious, too - we like to try foods from other places, we're fond of foreign movies and media, and we have a weird fascination with people who speak other languages (even though most of us only speak English).
Many of us see ourselves as citizens of the world, not just our own country. We like the idea of the US being a "global superhero" standing up for democracy and human rights. I know that's mostly propaganda, and the real history of US intervention is more about maintaining global capitalism. But it doesn't have to be that way. We could actually help the UN, defend Ukraine, defend Palestine, push for peace. The cultural groundwork is already there, we just need a more democratic system so that the will of the people is actually followed.
If you look at US history, you'll see a lot of bad. That's the nature of the two party system. But we have had some really good times, too. We have had leaders like John Quincy Adams, Abraham Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, FDR, and Jimmy Carter who have done a lot of good. And that's just presidents, we've also had activists and leaders fighting for what's right throughout our whole history.
They didn't spring up from nowhere. Those people have always been here, and they're just as "American" as the bad ones. In a sense there are two "America"s. There always have been. And, as in every generation, it's worth fighting for.
I'm not American but I totally agree with you. You guys might be at a low point right now, and the flawed system can be demoralising, but yours is still a country to be proud of. Heck, I'm proud of your country for some things.
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." - Carl Schurz:
It's our civic duty to make our country better.
Some people may need to move because because they aren't safe here right now.
Some people need to be removed, one way or another.
I’m actually inspired. We need more of this!
Well said!
a place worth dying for would he nice
I would need more to defend than just a Flag or Land area. I'm not killing myself or others for some line on a map. I.e. would it cause massive suffering for people if the war is lost?
Slava Ukrajini
Now you understand what it means to flee your country. It's never an easy decision.
For me it's a mix of different factors. Is there a place where I am better equipped to fight for what I believe in? Where I can be more effective in creating the world I want to live in? Maybe even a place from which I can more actively advocate and fight for the future I want for the place I just left?
I come from a family of refugees, immigrants and political prisoners. My dad fled his country with his family in the 70s, my mum's parents did the same in the 50s. Others didn't leave their homes, some survived, others did not. Every single one of my 19 cousins can call at least two countries their home.
I just left the US 5 weeks ago. I was a trans immigrant with a disabled, trans wife and an EU passport. Yes, part of me wants to fight the continuous fascist power grab happening right now in the US, which has become my home, but I'd be in a very precarious situation where just keeping myself safe enough to fight another day would occupy a lot of my capacities. Getting myself arrested and (best case) deported, wouldn't really be helpful. Returning to my country of origin allows me to fight the same trends and politics from a significantly more secure position. It allows me to financially support US organizations I believe in, in ways I couldn't while living there myself. And it's not like the same people aren't trying to achieve the same goals with varying success all across Europe.
But when we moved back here, I also decided that this would be it. This is where I am taking my stand and where I will fight for my future with all means necessary. Be that against internal threats or external ones. Not because this place or it's people is somehow more important to me based on the coincidence of my birth, but because there is no place where I personally have more resources, better support and a stronger starting position. Moving somewhere else to avoid the conflict would leave me with fewer resources and less ability to stand up for my beliefs.
I don't think there is anything cowardly about fleeing your country when you're not safe there. Being an immigrant, let alone a refugee is really fucking hard sometimes. Leaving your home and everything and everyone you've ever known behind, especially if you do so without knowing if you'll ever be able to return, can be incredibly traumatic. Starting over in a new place, even under the best circumstances, is scary, exhausting and often deeply isolating. We all have different priorities, strengths, weaknesses, needs and capacities and only you can decide based on those, what the right move is for you. Don't let someone who hasn't risked their life while staying tell you you are a coward for leaving or someone who hasn't ever left their home tell you you're stupid for staying.
If you're trans: Start making plans to flee. You don't have to carry them out right now. But do get a passport, even if it has to have your deadname. Canada or Mexico probably wouldn't accept a US refugee just for being trans right now, but that will change in the future.
If you're an immigrant, or even a permanent resident: It's unsafe in the US right now. I wouldn't fault you if you left today. However, everyone's circumstances are different. Maybe you want to stay and support your spouse and kids who are citizens, and you're willing to risk your life to do it. It depends on the circumstances.
Anyone else: Stay and fight.
The US is a massive place. Yes the federal govt can suck but state and local governments are where you see the real day to day effects like roads, local businesses, utilities and parks.
Sit in on a meeting (a lot of stuff is streamed thanks to covid). Get to know the people in office in your area and what they stand for. If you want make your voice heard however you choose and give them some perspective on how an upcoming decision effects you. You can vote wisely and build a community with them from the bottom up.
You can have a surprising level of influence just by reminding people that voters exist and care enough to give input now and then.
RUN! I don't know why people get so attached to a piece of land, especially when it can cost you your life. They are artificial lines created on the globe. The real question, is where to run.
Leave Grandma she's dead weight
Well, yeah, this is essentially why I'm not running.
Is that you, Clark?
I always hated the "cowardly" argument.
Who gives a flying fuck what others think? Fuck that egotistical bullshit.
Do what you can to survive. That's more important than worrying about how brave others think you are.
There is an argument to be made that fleeing anytime fascists threaten your democracy can maybe done once in a lifetime. If you happen to flee the American fascist regime to another country that collapse into fascism soon after, do you flee again? Do you finally stay and fight?
People should make these decisions for themselves and their families.
Who gives a flying fuck what others think? Fuck that egotistical bullshit.
Isn't egoism kinda the opposite of caring about what others think?
I've spent my whole life fighting for progressivism and my right to exist as a trans immigrant. My partner and I have been preparing to leave for a year. We're personally done, see y'all on the other side
I hope you thrive on the other side!
I'm just so grateful that so many great scientists fled nazi germany. Also that those who stayed behind (this is controversial and not known for sure) hindered and delayed Germany's nuclear weapons program.
Personally, I think either option is valid. Not everyone is cut out for the fight, and especially if you have children, it makes sense for a parent to do what is best. I wouldn’t blame anyone one bit for leaving. I honestly haven’t created an exit plan this far, so I might just end up staying and fighting.
To me, nationality is just a roll of the dice. You shouldn't have to stay somewhere just because you were born there. You wanna leave? By all means, go have your life's adventure.
And immigration should be widely supported in terms of higher ethical standards. Countries who make it difficult for people seeking to find a comfortable place to live is more immoral than a person seeking a new home.
While you are staying, your productivity is fueling the economy, and the taxes you pay go to the government you dislike. If you flee, that's a big economic difference you're making over the years. I guess if you fight symbolically but non-pragmatically and get arrested, they have to feed you and house you in a prison which will cost a little extra, but compared to your non-productivity that's just a small bonus. Fleeing also means you get to proactively contribute to competitors and reward them for being a better place to live, which in a way doubles your economic impact. There's a reason the Berlin wall was built and North Korea executes 3 generations of the families of defectors. People are valuable, and they can't afford to lose too many of them.
On the other hand, if your threshold for fleeing is too low, there are no competitors to support, because every country has their issues, and some may be at a risk of the same developments as the country you're fleeing from, making it a pointless exercise. And your loved ones could be essentially hostages that can be used to make you stay.
So it kind of depends, but at least the cowardice argument seems pointless to me. Pragmatic small-scale effectiveness tends to beat symbolic perfectionism at making an impact.
This depends on a lot of factors. If you're part of a targeted demographic due to race, gender, religion, etc., then it might be safer to flee before you draw attention to yourself.
If you're not a targeted demographic, then it might be best to stick around and stand up for your fellow citizens. But this could also lump you in with the targeted demographic and might eventually lead to your own persecution, so it's a risky choice.
Either way, I still advocate for standing up to any oppression or persecution going on in your home country. No one should ever lose their home to dictators and/or fascists.
This is actually how a lot of states get divided politically. People see a place as a "red state" or a "blue state" and decide to either avoid them or move away if their political ideology doesn't line up. But that just further entrenches the area into a political leaning. By sticking around and advocating for human rights and better community and respect, you can help prevent the splitting of communities and stop divisive concepts like fascism from forming.
I'm autistic and trying to figure out if autism is an at-risk minority group. It doesn't help that I was extremely vocal on Reddit about how much I hate Trump and Musk. I deleted my account, but Reddit is now a fascist platform and would likely turn over my posts and email address to this administration without a second thought.
I'm not sure what to do. I'm not sure if I could even leave at all, with my debilitating anxiety and trauma.
In good news: there's going to be lots of fed jobs available in 3 years.
Needed the optimism and the chuckle, so thanks lol
It's a paradox – for the individual it's better to leave, but migration en masse would be unsustainable both for the source country and for the recipient country. You simply cannot fit the whole of a country like Somalia into a country like Denmark. This is why I personally am an advocate of foreign aid, and that includes political.
If I could leave I'd be gone. I owe this country nothing.
Eventually you’ll run out of places to run to.
Brb, inventing a parallel universe portal
True, but if you die, you won't be doing much running anymore anyway.
There's no single correct answer, and as with most issues there are a lot more than two sides. You already implied a third one here - fleeing without being a coward. Question: assuming you aren't right now a low-paid doctor in a free clinic providing healthcare to people who can't afford it... do you feel evil for that? Is there any reason to beat yourself up for not doing that? Truth is we aren't all suited to actively and effectively fight the system, any more than we're all suited to be doctors or lawyers or athletes. You're allowed to make life decisions that suit your abilities and personal aspirations without crucifying yourself for not being a saint.
This is apparently what the US wants. My family is seriously looking into moving to a different country. We don't want to be stuck in the new modern nazi party country.
For me this entirely revolves around why why's and how's when it comes to how that affects the ethics of it.
With a defense type scenario I'd likely have a hard time looking at myself in the mirror if I just left and essentially allowed my home to be taken.
If we are the aggressor because we stepped in some horrible turd electorally then they chose this and therefore no thanks bye i'll send a postcard.
This question has nothing to do with the country and everything to do with the person. It's entirely up to the individual how to approach this.
For an external observer, the choice made by someone else is not for you to judge. You can never know what is inside the other person's mind and whilst you might disagree, it's their choice.
for you to judge
I mean, I don't judge others for leaving. It is the most logical choice with survival in mind. I just want to ask the question to see other opinions.
Whether to flee or fight isn't a very useful distinction, I think. It's a false dichotomy.
Fighting someone or fighting for something in a way that risks your life just isn't a very smart way to fight. Obviously run when your life is at stake. When you're safe, fight.
Never take any risks to improve the world, that's how things are gonna get better!
Never take any risks to improve the world, that’s how things are gonna get better!
No, I don't think I'd agree with that.
I have two multi-racial disabled family members I care for. Even if I could leave the country, they couldn't - very few nations allow the disabled to immigrate.
I'm here till the fight is done.
Whether you decide to fight or flee, I won't judge you. Do what makes sense for you and your loved ones. This is a difficult decision. Don't let Lemmy guilt trip you over it.
I have a family and kids that need me. I'll support the resistance where I can, but I can't fight on the front lines. I'm lucky I'm not a target of this administration yet, but if we go out and protest, we may become targets.
In recent years, my family has been getting our passports together and fulfilling requirements to get jobs in another country. If things get violent in my hometown, we can flee across the border. I'll do whatever it takes to keep my family safe.
If I was alone and no one depended on me, I'd disappear into the resistance. Somewhere, there's a cache of vintage World War II weapons that would love to fight Nazis again. But, I'm honestly not the gun nut type.
Imagine someone keeps breaking into your house and shitting on your pillow. Do you move out and find a new house, or do you grab a baseball bat and beat the shit bandits ass?
Both are valid options with positive and negative consequences. Which path we choose is largely determined by the value we personally place on our things and spaces. We tend to value our homes and families more, so it's easier to choose the bat. But, it's the exact same choice when your country goes sideways (or any difficult decision, really).
Ask yourself; How valuable is the country, to you? How valuable is your role in its society, to you? How valuable is it that you stand up for your beliefs, to you? If you place no value on your country, then move on and feel good about taking care of yourself. If you value your country a lot, then stand and fight to the end. No one on the internet can answer these questions for you, and there is no right or wrong choice unless you decide there is.
If it's the police that keep breaking in and shitting on your pillow it would be best to move to a different town.
Makes no difference if the little shit is a pig or a bastard, if something you value and care about is threatened, fucking fight for it. When they have bigger guns than you, all that means is its time to get creative.
I'm staying, i'm a white male i'm low on the impact list. But I have citizenship in the UK and I am considering a trip to Scotland to see what the challenge of a relocation entails.
It's a very valid question and I think it comes down to an individual's situation and circumstances. Not many can afford to actually leave or have family, friends, other ties to their home that they cannot emotionally afford to leave. Others struggle in how they can support efforts to fight for their rights or simply don't have the physical or emotional reserves to make such a fight. I think the only truly ethically irresponsible answer would be to do the opposite that you are able and willing to do. I could never judge someone for leaving or for staying; it's not really a mark of their character.
I have thought about emigrating after I get my bachelor's, but I don't think I will.
My family has been here for generations. Why should I have to leave when the reactionaries are the ones that suck? Besides, where would I go? Ultimately, nowhere can guarantee safety from the rise of authoritarianism and climate change.
Canada and Scandinavia will probably weather climate change alright, but they'll have instability on their doorstep, especially if mass migration becomes a thing. Iceland? New Zealand? Switzerland? Probably all decent choices, to be honest.
I could also become a mountain man out a remote northern wilderness, living as self-sufficiently as possible while working remotely via satellite internet. Or, I could stay where I am and try and do as much good as possible, whatever that looks like.
I mean, there are examples of people who defected from Nazi Germany to the Soviet Union (and other places too) before and during the war. Good general rule is that the earlier they did the easier a time they had of it overall.
Generally, I feel like it depends on how viable it seems to fix. Is this the same issue that people marched about 50+ years ago?
Specific elephant in the room, what possible fix within 2-4 decades is there when the right has most of the keys including a stacked supreme court?
Personally, I can't really fight or leave. I am nowhere close to anything politically relevant... I have no transportation, income, or ID/passport etc. I am a shut-in with untreated health issues. I'm just letting the days go by.
Stay and fight for it. Because what happens if and when shit goes south wherever your new home is? Just keep running?
Well, apparantly, Lemmy is telling people to immediately flee the US.
So like, I'm just wondering. What happens when every person left-of-center leaves? Do we just leave a bunch of nazis with the entire nuclear arsenal of the US?
I made a similar post and I feel no answers here on lemmy are satisfactory. They’re either you should have left 8 years ago or fight for (what?) it. At the beginning of this term people yelled fascism and I thought that was silly. Now it feels closer to reality but it’s unclear what is just news making it worse than it is or reality.
Leaving certainly is an option but not an easy one, especially depending on your family situation. I’ve considered both and honestly idk. The people who just yell we should have left a while ago are too ready to jump the gun and probably are keyboard activists who are in fact still here.
Idk, just some thoughts. Idk what to do either but it’s scary.
America will bring down the entire western world. There is no option but to fight.
Is the "Western world" even worth fighting for? Who is included in it? More importantly, who is excluded?
You can always help overseas where you're safer.
How? We can barely have an impact here
The answer depends on the responsibilities you have.
I would flee if I could. Its not like the current stuff came and it was like hey im going to start fighting. We have been trying to change course and despite this its been going in the wrong direction. I mean will fight to the last but if my back was not against a wall I would be gone.
Don't run away unless it makes you stronger because of it. Once something has been gained, never yield it without a purpose or a strategy - even if that ends up being a bad decision it was at least yours to make.
It is a difficult endeavor to gain new ground; it is nigh impossible to fully recover that which has been lost.
After you have ceded all your land and yielded every advantage, where will you seek shelter and from what will you find strength?
I don't think there's any easy answer here.
If you stay, are you able and willing to fight and to what degree under which circumstances? What do you have to offer? Will you be more of a liability than an asset? How do you weigh your personal safety and wellbeing or those of your family and friends against the country or world? What do your prospects look like in whatever country you choose to flee to?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6tSqGCfoCI (I think some people are using this video in bad faith but the main message still stands)
stay. you will feel like shit when things go down and you are on the other side of the world doing nothing. it's pussy shit.
It's pussy shit, sure, but you only get one life. You don't get another chance. You may feel like shit for leaving, but you're alive and not in a prison. Which, if you ask me, I'd rather feel bad than be dead.
The original post did not mention fear of political persecution. I think that's a different situation.
Depends. If you want to draft me, fuck off. If invaders come in my neighborhood, I'll be in the wood blowing bombs like my ancestors did when the germans came.