America's nonreligious are a growing, diverse phenomenon. They really don't like organized religion
America's nonreligious are a growing, diverse phenomenon. They really don't like organized religion
Ask Americans what their religion is, and nearly 1 in 3 say this -- none. That’s according to the U.S. adults surveyed by The Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research.
Mike Dulak grew up Catholic in Southern California, but by his teen years, he began skipping Mass and driving straight to the shore to play guitar, watch the waves and enjoy the beauty of the morning. “And it felt more spiritual than any time I set foot in a church,” he recalled.
Nothing has changed that view in the ensuing decades.
“Most religions are there to control people and get money from them,” said Dulak, now 76, of Rocheport, Missouri. He also cited sex abuse scandals in Catholic and Southern Baptist churches. “I can’t buy into that,” he said.
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and do not harm others in the process.
I have presented no arguments suggesting they are harmless. I have not accepted your premise that they cause no harm. Indeed, I have provided a few examples of common, relatively minor harms, as well as references to the 9/11 attacks as non-exhaustive examples.
You acknowledged these harms when you strawmanned my position. You can't rationally claim that no such harms exist, when you have directly acknowledged they do.
We can disagree on the prevalence of such harms: you have indicated a belief they are rare, and I have refused to waste my time producing an exhaustive list.
You say your problem is that they believe things that are unsupported. Is that all, or do you dislike that because you think it leads to practices you don't like?
Such things do of course exist, but they don't constitute the dislike for all religion. Religious beliefs differ wildly and it makes little sense to denounce all of them because some cause problems.
Earlier you said that it wasn't any specific practices that caused you to dislike religion. So, I focused on your problem just with the unsupported beliefs. Now you again bring up specific practices you don't like.
I don't understand what you are even trying to say at this point.
Faith is a disease. In the faithful who aren't currently hurting anyone, the disease is dormant. They are still infected, and given the right set of circumstances, they will cause harm. A particular variety of the faithful were not putting people at risk, until COVID came around and their faithful infections came to be known as "antivax" and "antimask".
Trying to stop the "specific practices" without inoculating against faith is like trying to stop the spread of typhoid without innoculating Mary Mallon against the disease. The faithful are the cause and carriers, regardless of whether they are currently showing symptoms.
This makes slightly more sense to me although it is painfully overdramatic.
I could make an argument that any person under the right set of circumstances will cause harm. As far as I am aware, a religious person is not any more of a ticking time bomb than anyone else.
Blaming religion for these problems without tackling the underlying psychological issues is not going to help in any meaningful way. You just spread more hate and make the world a worse place, instead of approaching the situation with the slightest bit of empathy.
I see secular groups acting exactly the same way religious groups youve mentioned do. Its not a characteristic of religion or the lack thereof, its a characteristic of mentally unhealthy people.
If you care so much about these problems, then recognize that the world is not so black and white that you can always find an idea to make your enemy no matter the circumstances. The way to fix these problems is not to alienate massive groups of people because you think they might become bad one day. That's a childish close-minded world view that only perpetuates the things you claim to hate so much.
I could make an argument that any person under the right set of circumstances will cause harm.
Indeed. However, for a faithless person, those circumstances must exist in objective reality. The faithful merely need to imagine the existence of their own triggers.
It's a characteristic of mentally unhealthy people.
I do not concede that this is a symptom of mental illness. What I am talking about is an error in judgment, not a defect in the ability to reason.
I see secular groups acting exactly the same way religious groups youve mentioned do.
I'm not sure what groups you are referring to. Do these groups "conflate personal belief with objective reality"? If so, I would likely have the same criticism.
That's a childish close-minded world view that only perpetuates the things you claim to hate so much.
Where did I claim to "hate" anything at all? I believe the strongest criticism I made was "distrust". I did once use the word "anger" in a description of my position, but I was directly quoting you at the time. You have inserted quite a lot of emotive concepts on my behalf that I have not actually expressed. I will renew my claims of "strawmen" and "gaslighting".
Indeed. However, for a faithless person, those circumstances must exist in objective reality.
No, they do not. Anyone can justify any belief regardless of faith. I will admit faith is an easy target to justify horrible things, but its not at all the only way to justify things like that.
That's just how people work. Instead of admitting their beliefs are wrong, they will do mental gymnastics to justify them. It is very possible to have incorrect reasoning without being religious.
The underlying problem is absolutely bad mental health. Not necessarily a mental illness, but bad mental health in general. Everyone has justified a belief with bad logic because its too difficult to admit you are wrong. I've done it and still occasionally catch myself doing it. I believe you're doing it right now, although I'll admit I don't know you well enough to know for sure. I'm guessing you had some negative experience with religion and now justify your distaste for it by claiming religious people are more prone to doing horrible things.
I'm not sure what groups you are referring to. Do these groups "conflate personal belief with objective reality"?
Yes, the only difference is that their bad reasoning is not religious in nature. That's why your problem should be people that do that, not religious people. They are not related.
Where did I claim to "hate" anything at all? I believe the strongest criticism I made was "distrust".
Here I was using hate to refer to the examples you gave like anti vaccine and anti mask people. I'm assuming you do hate that, as you should.
No, they do not. Anyone can justify any belief regardless of faith. I will admit faith is an easy target to justify horrible things, but its not at all the only way to justify things like that.
Remember what "faith" means in this context: the conflation of personal belief with objective reality. The act of "Justify[ing] any belief" is an act of "faith".
That's just how people work. Instead of admitting their beliefs are wrong, they will do mental gymnastics to justify them.
That is how certain people work, not all people. You have identified a set of people who "conflate their personal beliefs with objective reality".
The underlying problem is absolutely bad mental health. Not necessarily a mental illness, but bad mental health in general.
I don't think so, but let's check on it: is it a mental health issue when we use an incorrect order of operations in a mathematical statement? For example, x=1+2*3. Is the person who gets "7" mentally healthy? Is the person who gets "9" mentally unhealthy? What of the 3-year-old, who has not yet been taught numbers, and scribbles a stick image of a cat on the sheet?
An individual who does not comprehend the meaning of PEMDAS/BEDMAS is still capable of rational thought. The lack of knowledge will lead them to a fallacious conclusion, but their process of reaching that conclusion is still rational.
A deliberate refusal to accept and follow PEMDAS/BEDMAS rules is an error, but is not an indication of mental illness.
The knowledge that individual belief must be subordinate to objective reality is a philosophical model that not everyone has learned, but ignorance of that philosophy is certainly not indicative of a mental health condition.
That is how certain people work, not all people.
No. It is literally a function of the human brain. https://www.healthline.com/health/stress/amygdala-hijack#how-to-stop Every single person on earth has done this and will do it again.
I don't think so, but let's check on it: is it a mental health issue when we use an incorrect order of operations in a mathematical statement?
That is simple incorrect logic. What I'm talking about is emotions overriding logic.
Having faith in a religion is very different from justifying emotional reactions with bad logic. You are conflating your personal belief that they are the same with objective reality.
Everyone conflates personal belief with objective reality to varying degrees. A mentally healthy person can process their emotions well and recognize when they do so most of the time. A mentally unhealthy person will not recognize it because of their lack of emotional intelligence.
Again, I am not talking about a clinical condition that inhibits clear logic. I'm talking about the ability to process your emotions in a healthy way.
Every single person on earth has done this and will do it again.
From your link, emphasis mine:
An amygdala hijack is an automatic response. Your body takes action without any conscious input from you.
"Belief" is a "conscious input." Conflating belief with objective reality is a conscious act, as is "declaration of an individual's religiosity". "Philosophy" is a consciously-developed worldview. As an unconscious response, "Amygdala hijack" is well outside the scope of these conscious, deliberate acts.
I have confined the scope of my discussion to the realm of consciousness, as it is only within this realm that we are capable of deliberate action. The unconscious realm does not interest me.
Yes, you do not consciously make the decision to give up rational thought to emotion. This does not detract from my argument.
Have you considered that an automatic response might have a large impact on what you believe? The reason people don't see the lack of logic in their beliefs is because their emotions don't allow it.
Even outside of this specific function, neocortex activity is inversely correlated with amygdala activity. The more emotionally attached to a belief they are, the more difficult it is to stop believing it.
I don't see how you can just ignore this and pretend it has nothing to do with our conversation. It is literally the entire cause of the problems you've mentioned.
Have you considered that an automatic response might have a large impact on what you believe? The reason people don't see the lack of logic in their beliefs is because their emotions don't allow it.
I would say that you are overvaluing the effects of emotion on the initial decision, and you are ignoring their emotional response to their own rationalization.
There's a video floating around of a guy who instinctively reacted to a threat by hiding behind his significant other. He reacted in fear. Now comes the rationalization phase: He tries to understand the act he instinctively performed. Rationalization is the act of applying his philosophical model to his actions. He evaluates his behavior against the expectations of his model.
He could subscribe to a philosophical model where the sanctity of his body is greater than that of hers, in which case he could rationalize that his actions were good and proper. (He would then experience the emotion of "pride" that he followed his philosophical model correctly.)
He could subscribe to a philosophical model where he is expected to protect other people from harm. He would then rationalize that his actions were improper. (He would then experience the emotion of "shame" for falling short of his idealizes principles.)
(It is important to note that we are talking about a fraction of a second between the unconscious act and the rationalization of that act: the actor is feeling "pride" or "shame" at his action before his significant other has even realized what he has done. His initial, instantaneous reaction may not be controllable by his philosophical model. He might initially flinch behind her in fear, realize his error, and move to shield her from harm. Or, he might deliberately abandon her, and seek better protection from the perceived threat by fleeing. The point is that within fractions of a second, his actions are being influenced by his philosophical model. The "automatic response" you are talking stops being relevant as soon as this has occurred, and the philosophical model becomes the driving factor.)
In both cases, the initial act is identical, sparked by an unconscious, unintentional process. "Amygdala hijacking" may, indeed, be responsible for this initial act, but it is not responsible for the differing effects. The difference in outcomes is due to the conscious, philosophical model held by the actor. Philosophy plays a big part in driving emotion.
I am uninterested in discussing the conditions that are, by definition, outside of the will and control of the individual. My interest here extends only to those things we can consciously affect.