Hundreds dead in Israel and Gaza, thousands injured after Hamas launches rockets, Israel declares war
Hundreds dead in Israel and Gaza, thousands injured after Hamas launches rockets, Israel declares war
Rockets have been fired from Gaza "across southern and central Israel, including Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, and the infiltration of Hamas militants."
Over 100 Israelis have died and more than 900 were injured after rockets were fired from Gaza by Hamas militants, Israeli officials said Saturday.
The Palestinian Health Ministry said 198 were killed in Gaza and at least 1,610 were injured Saturday in retaliatory attacks from Israel.
"We are at war. We will win," Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on Saturday.
The Israeli Defense Forces earlier declared "a state of alert for war," according to a statement issued by the IDF.
"Over the past hour, the Hamas terrorist organization launched massive barrages of rockets from Gaza into Israel, and its terrorist operatives have infiltrated into Israel in a number of different locations in the south," the IDF said early Saturday.
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How can Hamas even think they have an iota of a chance against a military power like Israel?
It makes no sense.
It makes sense, but not the way you think. They know they are going to lose. They know they are going to suffer greater retaliation. But they will have to endure it. And they know many of them will die because of it. They were ready to face the consequences.
I don't think this campaign is against the Israeli government. It's a strategic move targeted towards the illegal Israeli settlers and those who dare to encroach into the disputed Palestinian land! - to instill traumatic fear. It's a warning message to these people, even though the have the best military and the best surveillance techs, the government can't protect them. A stern message to them: If you dare to take this land from us, one day we will come to take it back from you, even your life, at the time you least expected and every efforts you put before will be in vain.
You're forgetting the key aspect -- they want Israel to attack. These are hardcore committed militants. They want to kill their enemies or die trying. They want other people to feel the same way, but too many Palestinians are just trying to live their lives and survive day-to-day.
By attacking Israel, they know they're going to prompt a vicious counter attack that will kill and maim a lot of Palestinians. That's good from the point of view of the Palestinian militants. More people who lose their loved ones to Israeli attacks means more angry people wanting to lash out. That means more of them will hate Israel even more, and be even more willing to risk their lives to try to destroy Israel.
It's also a gift to Netanyahu and the right-wingers in Israel. They want the Israeli population to be scared and angry, because when they're scared and angry they support the right-wingers. This instantly solves all the political and legal problems that Netanyahu had.
This is the same strategy that Osama bin Laden used with the Sept. 11th terrorist attacks, and it worked perfectly. He knew that the US would flip out and overreact and kill hundreds of thousands of people as a result. He hoped they'd attack Saudi Arabia because his biggest conflict was not with the US, but with the government there. Instead the US attacked Iraq and Afghanistan, but that was almost as good. It drove recruitment for al Qaeda, and later for the Islamic State.
Not surprisingly, I do agree with your perspective: They want Israeli to attack. They want to
chancechange the status quo.They want other people to feel the same way, but too many Palestinians are just trying to live their lives and survive day-to-day.
When you say 'many Palestinians', I would say those are the ones who live in the West Bank, controlled by Fatah. Fatah made acceptable deals with Israeli, and somenow their live are getting better, more survivable. But Hamas doesnt agree with these deals. They have a very narrow mindset which is: No deals with the Israel, period. And the people of Gaza supported this POV and they elected Hamas in the first place, which means they are ready to suffer the consequences when giving the support.
Palestinians are divided into two fractions. In some ways, the attack could be an attempt to reunite and change it back to one.
They have a very narrow mindset which is: No deals with the Israel, period
Hmm, I've heard that before, with slightly different phrasing: "we don't negotiate with terrorists".
It seems like a good view.
Except that these attacks weren't against the settlers (who are taking land in the west bank), it's targeting the civilians in South Israel who have lived there for ages. I think the world was expecting to see this violence in the west bank, not gaza.
I could be wrong on that. I stand corrected if that's the case.
I think the world was expecting to see this violence in the west bank, not gaza.
Yes, but it's best to attack where it is least expected. Other than that, it's open to discussion/speculation. Whatever it is, it is a very well thought and executed plan where they expect great retaliation. One thing, The Hamas don't trust Fatah, and some pro-Palestin Muslim even regard Fatah as traitor. Maybe the Saudi-Israel normalisation plan got something to do with it? Maybe someone can give their input on these.
I check Ofakim, one of the affected area.
In 2010, about one-fifth of the residents were ultra-Orthodox and one third were immigrants from the former Soviet Union. Most of the rest were members and descendants of the founding generation of the immigrants who arrived in the town in the 1950s and 1960s. In addition, there are small communities of Ethiopian Jews and Palestinians originally from the Gaza Strip who were resettled in Israel after collaborating with Israeli authorities.[5][6]
According to the Central Bureau of Statistics, Ofakim had a population of 30,662 in 2019, and the population is growing at a rate of 1.4% a year. The percentage of the share of the Arab Palestinian population of Ofakim is very small and about 0.7%.[1]
You're right on that. They population has been there since the 50s.
it's targeting the civilians in South Israel who have lived there for ages
Not for ages. Only since the country was split into two with no regard for actual Palestinian input on this. There's been less than 100 years since then. Not enough time to heal, especially when nothing was done to make things right. It's like telling black people in the US in 1700 "it's been ages since you've been brought here on a boat, just let it go, this is the way things are now". Very much fuck you & no.
It seems like a very clear message by Hamas: if you moved into my house by force, you are not a civilian. Get out of my house.
It still makes no sense to me from that perspective. Shouldn't they, of all people, understand that trying to frighten people into submission can instead embolden them? Israel's brutal actions against Palestinians didn't crumble Hamas. It created more support for it.
What do they think will happen now? They've attacked and kidnapped civilians. Even people sympathetic to the Palestinians plight are horrified at this.
All Hamas has done here is turn more of the world against them, brutalized civilians, and actually given Israel partial justification for their response. This is the first time in my adult life that I've seen such violence against Israel.
People can only take so much. It's part of the bully play book. Push them until they break and then blame them for everything.
The only options are be genocided or be genocided quicker if there's no fear of retaliation. They're choosing to go out on their own terms.
Hamas sets up military operations in a civilian building by force - the civilians have no say in this and get killed if they protest Hamas then uses that building to launch rockets, store ammunition, communication stations How the fuck should Israel proceed to neutralize those sites? Because what they do is:
“Roof knocking”: Hitting the building’s roof with a small explosive to announce that it will fall in 15 minutes (see video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teevWpXlRZY example from yesterday) Automatic SMS and phone calls impacted areas warning and urging to evacuate Precision strikes that make the building fall vertically with minimal damage to the areas As a result, civilians (and potentially military personnel) are given a chance to evacuate while ammunition stashes, rocket launching stations etc stay in the building and are destroyed.
To be honest, I’m shocked those protocols are still used after Hamas’s attack. I would absolutely not be surprised of these measures stopped.
The anti-Israel don’t care that Israel is bending over backwards to minimize human suffering while fighting a decades long war against people who are deliberately trying to kill their children.
Remember how upset they are when Israel does something 100 percent defensive, like build a security fence to keep out an endless stream of suicide bombers?
This isn’t good-faith criticism.
These people hate Israel for this that they works be applauding other countries for. And we all know why
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All Hamas has done here is turn more of the world against them
Sure, until Israel overreacts and starts a war that kills tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians. Then people's sympathies will go back to the underdog in the fight, which is the Palestinians.
Yay…?
A combination of this and a religion that brainwashed them into thinking that if they die while trying to murder other people that they will go to paradise and have a bunch of little girls as wives.
Man you've got a real hard on for Hamas.
We are trying to analyze and make sense of the situation, and all you can add to the discussion is by attacking me ad hominem? Thanks.
You're so welcome buddy
that's the spirit. have a nice day.
I don't think there's any arguing with the stone cold fact that Israel has killed more civilians than Hamas.
I never argued that.
A victim of bullying will eventually lash out whether or not they think they have a chance because they become desperate.
Are they a victim of bullying when their official policy is the destruction of their neighbors culture?
They are a victim of bullying when they've been under decades of illegal occupation. Hamas is an awful organization, but it was only formed as a result of ongoing brutal oppression. When you keep punching someone in the face, sooner or later they'll start punching back, and sometimes they'll fight dirty. That doesn't make them good, but the bully is still the one who kicked things off in the first place and the one who should be first and foremost held responsible for the situation they created.
Hamas individual victims get my full sympathy; they're victims of both Hamas and Israel. Israel as a state does not - without their brutal oppression, extensive war crimes, and apartheid regime, there wouldn't be any Hamas in the first place.
What if the bully went up to someone and said "I'm going to fucking kill you" and then tried to kill them using all means possible all because the bully and the other person exist in the same area? Only Palestine and Hamas before now were the ones saying the Jews deserved death AND acted upon it multiple times. I had sympathy for their plight until they indiscriminately killed people who had zero interaction with their problems. I'm sure those thai workers and rave tourists, massacred, raped, killed and kidnapped has a lot to do with the fucking situation between Israel and Hamas/Palestine. Israel isn't clean, but in 1 day and 1 act became the cleaner of the 2 in non Arab public perception.
What if the bully went up to someone and said "I'm going to fucking kill you" and then tried to kill them using all means possible all because the bully and the other person exist in the same area?
This sentence alone shows your complete and utter lack of understanding of the situation and the history that has led to it.
Jewish population in 1917 was 8%, but 1936 that was 28%. In 1948, during the Nakba, it jumped from 32% to 82%. Palestinians were the indigenous people of Palestine until the Zionist movement INTENTIONALLY AND SYSTEMATICALLY took over, killed, burnt down, and destroyed not only men women and children, but every facet of Palestinian culture they could.
They shut Palestine out of negotiations and diplomatic channels, and ran straight-up propaganda campaigns in America to convince numbskulls like you who believe the slant they hear on Fox news about how Hamas are just terrorists.
Hamas actually attempted to be a legitimate government that played by the rules, as did the PLO. They were backstabbed, lied to, led on, and ignored by US, UN, Israel, Britain, etc.
I had sympathy for their plight until they indiscriminately killed people who had zero interaction with their problems
You can have sympathy for the plight of the Palestinian people while condemning actions taken by militants. Nuance is possible here.
And yet the Palestinian population grows each year.
Wow it's almost as if Palestinians want to return to their fucking homes that they were forced out of, Jesus what a shocker, zomg
Nice "whatabout", but the bully here is the party that engaged in an illegal occupation, the crime of apartheid, and extensive war crimes (annexation through settlement of occupied territory) in the first place. That you try to redefine away the fact that Israel created this situation in the first place borders on apartheid-apologism. It's exactly the same tactic used by supporters of South African apartheid to dismiss the situation in South Africa whenever the ANC carried out a violent operation, and it was apologism for oppression then, and it is apologism for oppression now.
Nah fam, if you want to play that game Arabs invaded Jewish communities that had settled there during the muslim conquests, that's over 2,000 years of illegal occupation. If you're fine with that, you should be fine with Israel taking back their land at the "edge of a sword".
Also it's funny to hear you say killing innocent people not involved with the conflict is "apartheid apology"
Only one party is currently illegally occupying land they have legal claim to and engaging in the crime of apartheid. Only one party is engaged in fighting against an illegal occupier. That you choose to argue in favour of the apartheid regime engaged in an illegal occupation says enough.
Do they have a legal claim to it? If they stole the land it shouldn't matter how long ago it was right? That's the Palestinian logic I'm seeing.
Who? Israel? No, they do not have a legal claim to the occupied areas, or they wouldn't be occupied. Both irrespective of the occupation, the crime of Apartheid is a crime against humanity under the Rome statute.
The Israeli Supreme Court has ever since 1967 consistently accepted the Israeli government's own contention that the territories are occupied, and not part of Israel proper, because if they were part of Israel, then Palestinians affected by Israeli oppression would have far stronger legal claims.
So if you want to argue that the occupied territories belong to Israel, you're arguing against the position of both Israel the state and the Israeli Supreme Court.
See "The law of belligerent occupation in the Supreme Court of Israel", David Kretzmer, Professor Emeritus of International Law at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, published in the International Review of the Red Cross, 2012
I'm simply applying the logic the Palestinians apply. There were ruins of a 2000 year old Jewish temple and a 1500 year old mosque in the region. Guess which one is older. I'd also feel more empathy for the apartheid conditions if Palestinians would stop electing a political group who's stated goals are the deaths of every Jewish person. And as I said it's comical you keep saying I support apartheid policies by simply stating killing, raping, torturing, kidnapping, and forcing innocent people to be used as human shields is fucking wrong and deplorable no matter what side does it. If Ukraine starts liquidating Russian cities and raping, torturing, kidnapping, and using innocent's as human shields I'd say the same fucking thing to them and pull my support. If this is how Palestine wants to do things I shed no tears as they are destroyed. "By any means" works both ways.
That "game" of which you speak is an appeal to privilege in its most obscene form: claiming an ancestral myth that allows you to impact extreme violence against other humans whose only crime is being born into the wrong bloodline.
It's 2023 CE out here but some cultures are pretending it's 2023 BCE
And yet only 1 culture is out here consistently announcing their intentions to literally kill all people of that religion, Palestine.
No, Israel does that. They just use dog whistles. But they ABSOLUTELY do that.
11,000 Palestinians killed by Israelis since 2000. 1,500 Israelis killed by Palestinians. (Prior to current events)
Actions speak too.
When you say 'destroying their neighbors culture' - are you talking about Israel or Palestine?
Clearly Palestine. They're the ones with a government they elected that literally put "destroy all Jews" in their founding charter.
Well, Israel was actively destroying culture as well. We've all seen the videos of Palestinians being evicted from their homes by Israeli military /police.
In fact Id say thats way worse than words on paper. Systemic actions to destroy
Why leave out the fact that the Jews also have an equally legitimate claim on the land, in addition to having been taken close to the brink of total extermination by circumstances completely beyond their control? A normal, compassionate individual would welcome these people in, make room for them, and live at peace under a stable society, tolerant of different points of view. However, that is not what the Jews encountered upon the creation of Israel. It was just a continuation of the campaign to exterminate them, from a different group. Are you going to argue that it’s bad for Germans to murder Jews, but it is okay for Muslims?
Firstly, see “The law of belligerent occupation in the Supreme Court of Israel”, David Kretzmer, Professor Emeritus of International Law at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, published in the International Review of the Red Cross, 2012:
Not even the Israeli government or the Israeli Supreme Court agree with you that Israel has a legitimate claim to the territories beyond their internationally recognised borders. Maybe somebody here is talking about the entirety of Israel, but I am not, nor have I ever. If Israel were to withdraw to their borders, and Palestinian attacks still continue, then there'd be at least room for discussion of blame.
Until then, as long as Israel itself legally recognizes that it is an occupying power, there is none.
Secondly, people's experience of being oppressed does not recognize law. Irrespective of who has ownership of what, Israel is engaged in treating Gaza in particular as an Apartheid-style bantustan, and is committing crimes against humanity by doing so.
Whether or not you agree with the legal position on that, when someone places people in those conditions, then it is entirely on them when they hit back.
Blaming people for resisting gross abuse because you don't like how they do it when you've put them in a situation where they have no realistic opportunity to fight clean is victim-blaming.
Are you going to argue that it’s bad for Germans to murder Jews, but it is okay for Muslims?
Nice try. I've not argued it is okay for anyone. I've argued in some threads that unless you've provided a better alternative (and not suggested it; actually tried to make it come to pass), then like the rest of us you're not in a moral position to judge people for taking desperate steps to try to fight back.
That doesn't mean not feeling for the victims, because they had no power to end this either. It doesn't mean not thinking it's a horrible situation. It doesn't mean you can't get angry. It means resisting the urge to assign the blame to a people the vast majority of whom have been born into effective bondage under an apartheid regime for taking desperate and irrational actions to try to end a gross abuse they have no realistic power to change.
They are desperate, frustrated, angry... They are human.
Neutrally looked at, a couple of french farmers and craftmen had no chance against the french military of 1789. But they where pushed to a point where they believed doing nothing is worse than dying trying. By chance they actually stormed the Bastille and kickstarzed a very dark chapter in french history.
It's not like the position of the people of Gaza is going to improve...
Exactly. The same thing happened before again and again. The result was always the same. Death and misery for the people in Gaza.
The whole region needs to be put under supervision by an international committee and bring Israel's borders back to its original limits and give back the right to the people of Gaza and West Bank the right to their own land and allow them to exchange with other nations.
bring Israel’s borders back to its original limits
Which the Arabs voted against in the first place. They never wanted a Jewish state there and their rhetoric would suggest they still don't. The only difference is now there is one, and there has been for most of a century.
They're genocidal lunatics covering their hatred in colors of justice and victimhood
They don't care about an actual chance, they just follow the directions their masters in tehran give them because they'll happily make themselves dogs if it means they get to go full turner diaries wet dream mode.
They are targeting civilians not the military. They want to cause so much pain and suffering the Israeli people will push their govt to cede demands of Hamas to stop the fighting, or emmigrate somewhere else
They have been pushed into a corner and kept on getting squeezed, so probably feel they have no other options (and might very well be right in light of what has happenned in the last decade).
Had Israel stopped expanding "colonates" and taking palestinian land, I doubt the likes of Hamas would have the internal support and manpower to do what they just did, but over the last several decades Bibi and his predecessors have been just dubbling down and announcing ever more anexation of land.
The massive difference in military power is also probably the reason for the kidnappings: I suspect it's a "strategy" to try and get the Israeli authorities to not just bomb the whole of Gaza.
Whilst I disagree with their methods I can see how over 70 years, given the trend in israeli politics and the lack of genuine and effective pushback from the international community against appartheid in Israel and the occupation, so many Palestineans have come to believe they have no other options than this kind of thing and personally I actually see no other option (even this they're doing now is not really an option, more like a lashing out of the desperate).
It is clearly impossible to solve this from the inside (to much hate by now, too many assholes on both side whose power rests in the assholes from the other side killing people), which is why I think the US' and Europe's treatement of Israel as if it's a Developed, Democratic, Western nation, all the while it's more akin to a Theocratic South Africa with a Russia-style leadership, is probably to blame more for this than anybody else (and I say this as an European) - they were the only ones who could have forced a peaceful resolution to this (rather than just mild criticism and no action, which is all that Europe did) by doing the same they did to South Africa, but instead they did nothing at all, effectivelly endorsing the choices of the Israeli leadership and totally disenfranchising the Palestinians, prolonging this cycle - want to see who has the most blood in their hands on this, go look in the White House, Number 10, Deutsche Kanselarie and the Palace Du Eliseé.
It's a shame because western countries were starting to recognize the apartheid situation in Israel and were starting to criticize it. I think had things gone a bit longer there would have been an intervention.
In any case, this whole thing is just sad. So many innocent lives are destroyed on both sides. And I sincerely think Israel, their government and the Jewish extremists are the root cause.
Hamas sets up military operations in a civilian building by force - the civilians have no say in this and get killed if they protest Hamas then uses that building to launch rockets, store ammunition, communication stations How the fuck should Israel proceed to neutralize those sites? Because what they do is:
“Roof knocking”: Hitting the building’s roof with a small explosive to announce that it will fall in 15 minutes (see video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teevWpXlRZY example from yesterday) Automatic SMS and phone calls impacted areas warning and urging to evacuate Precision strikes that make the building fall vertically with minimal damage to the areas As a result, civilians (and potentially military personnel) are given a chance to evacuate while ammunition stashes, rocket launching stations etc stay in the building and are destroyed.
To be honest, I’m shocked those protocols are still used after Hamas’s attack. I would absolutely not be surprised of these measures stopped.
The anti-Israel don’t care that Israel is bending over backwards to minimize human suffering while fighting a decades long war against people who are deliberately trying to kill their children.
Remember how upset they are when Israel does something 100 percent defensive, like build a security fence to keep out an endless stream of suicide bombers?
This isn’t good-faith criticism.
These people hate Israel for this that they works be applauding other countries for. And we all know why
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Well Hamas managed to kill hundreds of Jews in one sweep, for instance.
Lebanon, 1982. IDF forces laid siege to Beirut, killing ~5,000 Lebanese civilians completely uninvolved in the conflict, because Israel wanted to make a statement.
Ukraine: Hey guys! What are we talking about?