hurts less than getting eaten by a coyote

I believe discussion on this flares up now and then because it is an easy answer, tough decision.
If you make this decision for others: of course this is the most ethical thing to do, the data isn't ambiguous.
If you are yourself affected: Oof. Yes it might be better for society, but personally I value this and that, and I am but one and would rather wait on legislation before I do anything.
We love to argue it because one side thinks experiencing it taints your view, the other that only reading data misses the point. Can be about indoor cats, vegan diets or pineapple on pizza, the argument itself never matters.

Why do we let humans go outside ???
- to feed the bears
- We’re too big for coyotes, know to stay away from bears, and can tell other people if we need rabies shots
  
  You're only too big for a coyote, packs will hunt lone humans

Get a catio.
Don’t let cats kill more birds and amphibians. Cats being let outside has contributed to the extinction of countless species.
- Also, lead walking! Most cats can be trained to be very receptive to lead walking especially if you start them young. Your cat still gets the enrichment from walking around outside and all the lovely smells and sights that entails but without the danger of cars or the cat killing everything is feels like.
  
  Walking your cat is a great way to get them outside, but (depending on the individual) it's quite different from walking a dog. Most cats aren't very interested in the actual walking part of walks, and may be much happier finding a nice bush to sit under for half an hour. However a leash is a great way to keep your cat supervised and under control for outside visits, either in the back yard, around the block, or to a nearby park.
  Other warnings: starting them young is ideal, but older cats can get used to the leash with a lot of patience (on both of your parts). Cats that were previously outdoor cats will have the most trouble adjusting to their loss of freedom, but indoor-only cats may be excited for the opportunity (or terrified: pushing your cat a little out of their comfort zone is okay but don't overdo it!). A well-fitting harness/vest is crucial, and even then a very determined (or scared) cat can probably wriggle out so be prepared. Keep a very close eye on your cat's emotional state and be ready to go home at signs of anxiety. Low-stress outdoor places (with few cars, dogs, screaming kids, etc, and with some form of cover like trees and bushes) are best especially to start. Treats and verbal encouragement, paired with small steps and lots of patience, are key! Above all stay consistent: once you've made the decision to make your cat leash-only, don't let them go outside without it: your cat needs to make the connection that they have to be on a leash if they want to enjoy the outside.
  
  My neighborhood has had at least two flier campaigns in the past year for cats who slipped their leads and disappeared. Best of luck for those who find it novel but I'm gonna keep it simple and just keep the cat inside.
- I used to see Cardinals everywhere in my back yard wonder if my neighbors shit head orange keeps killing them
- I know they do a lot of killing and they fuck up the local ecosystem, but I never knew they actually made extinctions happen. What species?
  
  https://gizmodo.com/8-species-driven-toward-extinction-by-cats-1848059691
  Over half of pet cats in the U.S. spend time outside, and worldwide the animals have contributed to the extinction of at least 33 species, according to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.
  Sadly, it’s already too late for dozens of species, including the Stephens Island wren (a flightless songbird), the crescent nailtail wallaby, and the adorable desert bandicoot.
  [Suprise the Trump admin seems to have taken that page down — sure there is an archive tho]

Bigger issue imo is cats destroying wild life not the wild life destroying cats. Either way, keep your cat inside.
- So, now you're starving coyotes?
- tbf, in most urban/sub urban areas, it's too late already.
  
  Its not, nature can recover very quickly given the right respect
- Some of us live in countries that don't really have dangerous wild life and cats have been allowed outside for over 1000 years.
  
  countries that don't really have dangerous wildlife
  cats have been allowed outside for over 1000 years
  Sounds like your country does have dangerous wildlife, you just like the predator more than the prey
  
  Humans can sustain a large density of cats that wasn't possible in the wild. If it's a pet cat, don't let it hunt. It will imbalance the ecosystem by adding too many predators who don't depend on the prey for sustenance
  
  cats have been allowed outside for over 1000 years
  That's simply not true. There were never as many outdoor cats as there is today and cats used to have natural predators everywhere to keep environmental balance which is lost today. Keeping all of your pets indoors (or at least backyard) is the only ethically viable position.
  
  Yeah I always found the argument absurd as I live on a paved over rectangle with a few square feet of grass my cat likes to poop on while he hangs out with the local squirrels. He is far too lazy to hunt anything, he killed a mouse that was actually inside the house many many years ago but has been a pacifist since. He is 15 he literally wants to sit in the sun and do nothing.
  Of course there are some cats who will hunt, and their owners should not allow that. But the blanket statements about environmental impacts, while they cool their house with AC, burn fossil fuels to heat food and go to work, order crap on Amazon...just lacks perspective.
  
  Humans are dangerous wildlife not least because of our cars. That is why indoor cats live 10-20 years and outdoor cats 2-4
- Let's keep building houses and not talk about how that destroys countless species' habitats.
  No, let's shit on cats for the misery WE cause.
  Saying an animal can't go outside because they are the Hitler of animals is so disingenuous and out of touch with reality.
  Cats are animals and are in their element outside. Birds are not being massacred by cats. They are being massacred by humans, and you are a fool for thinking any different.
  Maybe stop hating cats and start hating humans if you want to protect birds' habitat from being destroyed.
  Hypocrites, the lot of you.
  
  This lot is impossible to reason with, but I applaud your effort.
  
  Birds are not being massacred by cats. They are being massacred by humans, and you are a fool for thinking any different.
  Google is right there, dipshit
  
  Tell this to fucking New Zealand.
  
  We cause it both by building over all the habitat AND by letting cats loose. Since I have to live somewhere I won't feel bad about existing but I' also won't be letting my cat out to make it worse. That said that is 99.9% because outdoor cats normally live 2-4 years and indoor cats live 10-20 years. May cat gets to go outside in a strolller/harness and otherwise gets to roam our floor of the apartment.

I can't take anyone seriously on cat welfare if they have a cat mutilated just to prevent furniture getting some scratch marks.
- My cat loves her 6 C-size breast implants thank you very much. The reduced scratching is just a tangential benefit to her self image.
  
  Have you found a surgeon willing to do all eight breasts? I'm finding most top out at six, even on eight-nippled cats like mine. One surgeon said he'd only do two! I was like, this is a cat, sir, not a tabaxi.

I witnessed basically this exact conversation once. We were in the exam room, and our vet stepped out to the computer in the hallway to show a woman her cat's X-rays. Apparently it had been attacked by a dog and wouldn't make it.
The vet literally said, "So what did we learn today? Don't let your cat outside if you want it to live."
- Funny.
  In Europe we've the same discussion for the opposite reasons.
  Do not let the cat outside, it will kills other animals.
  
  It's really both. Eventually cat will get into an accident, but on the way there it will take a whole bunch of smaller animals and birds with it.
  
  This works for people with empathy who care. The former works for people who are selfish. Both are good to tell people. One may work where the other doesn't.
  
  But that's the point. I don't want mice around the house.
- Wow, that's ruff

It is better for the bird population, too.

Cats deserve their freedom. If it's not safe to let a cat out where you live, don't get a fucking cat. They need an escape from your bullshit.
- No, they decimate local bird population which are already in danger due to human development and pollution. In a perfect world where human factor was of no concern this wouldn't be as controversial of a take.
  
  Pft! You don't seriously still believe in birds?!? My cat caught a tooth fairy the other day. Lol

Holy crap..yes. leash your cats for the love of all that is fuzzy.
The anger people have when you tell them it's neglect when you just let a cat roam free. It's insanity. Your cat can easily just never come home or be found dead to many things, and they also destroy lots of wildlife and crap on people's property with no respecting owner to clean up.
No one would take this from dogs..so why cats? It's literally for their safety and the safety of other animals...its mind boggling and the downvotrs prove it
- The anger people have when you tell them it’s neglect when you just let a cat roam free. It’s insanity.
  If you want to see people loose their mind, suggest that the way we dominate these animals to please us is the root cause of all that suffering and neglect.
  *I live with a cat and am having beef for dinner. I'm a hypocrite, not PETA.
  
  Peta is also Extremely hypocritical but I agree.
- Here is a perspective from someone who has owned an inside/outside cat for the last 12 years. My cat is independent and resourceful and yes, contributes to ecodestruction by killing birds and mice occasionally. To me this is negligible compared to the ecodestruction of simply existing in a city. If I lived in nature I would not have a cat. I don't think you can conflate my cat killing a pigeon twice a year in an urban environment with destroying the ecosystem.
  It's also disengenuous to ignore the quality of life improvements of having a cat who is free to explore vs. one locked in an apartment all day. I recently moved and am now experiencing this and it sucks. I feel terrible for restricting her freedom and she is visibly less happy. If you think animals are sentient and have emotions, and you care about the environment, then none of what we are currently doing makes any sense.
  
  I do
  <insert bad thing>
  already so I don't need to avoid doing
  <insert other bad thing>
  because I already do
  <bad thing>
  even though the nature of my effect on the world is the sum of my behavior and I'm really bad at logic.
  
  You are a human who thinks and cares about others and living creatures in nature, not a virtue signaler wanting points on the internet by shitting on cats. Thank you.
- My neighbors had a skunk that lived in the garage. Her name was Petunia. The neighbors never got rid of her because she harmed no one and was never problemativc and "where else is she going to live we dont use the garage." Her or one of her kids who we all assumed was Petunia lived there from at least 1978-2004 (RIP). Petunia literally controlled the block because she was very large. Despite the neighbor hood telling every newcomer about Petunia someone would think their cat can handle it and be surprised that a 15 lb/6kg skunk is in fact terrifying to kitties.
- Yes, I will bring my half feral barn cat inside.
  
  You know the reason it's a feral cat, is because people let the cats roam free. It's the result of people neglecting their pets and letting them roam to begin with.
  This a compounding issue and people are justifying loose feral cats, because they found a loose feral cat so it must remain feral.
  Barn cats with a job on a farm in the country are obviously a different story, my issue is more directed at the cats roaming in urban neighbourhoods, with no purpose/job.
  Picture your neighbourhood with feral dogs..you'd be annoyed/upset/scared when you come across one taking a massive dump on your lawn and it gets defensive about its territory. Cats are realistically no different but somehow socially accepted. It makes no sense.
  
  I used to be a kennel worker, met thousands of cats over the years. Never once met a cat who did not adapt to being indoor only within a month

Is this funny or just an excuse for Lemmy to get vocal and preachy

My Nextdoor app = 1000 I lost my cat posts daily.
- I lost my cat for a week once but he wasn't an outdoor cat, he just snuck past as I was coming home in the dark once. It was so difficult to try to explain to people that no, he is not an outside cat, and please please help me get him back home because he doesn't know how to get home. So many people in the neighbourhood saw him but they just assumed he was an outdoor cat and didn't bother.
  Thankfully I found him after many nights of going out to search for him, but I really can't imagine people would've reacted the same to a lost dog.
  This was like 15 years ago but I'm still in the habit of opening my door foot first now to make sure I push any curious kitties back before I walk in.
  
  I thought this happened to me once, and spent several hours looking around the neighborhood just to discover it was still inside. I would have sworn on my life there was no space left unchecked that could physically fit a cat.
- I had a idea of how to stop them but my wife wouldn't let me.
  Respond with a picture of a coyote, bobcat, mountain lion, great horned owl or other predator with the caption, "Thank you for dinner, it was delicious."
  
  I have a friend whose neighbour literally watched their cat get eaten by a coyote in their backyard. The friend still let her own cat out in that same neighbourhood after that happened cause "oh he just keeps getting out, we don't know how..."🙄 Poor guy got hit by a car some months later.
  
  Mostly it's going to be dogs and cars
  
  🤣 Dead!

If you can't or won't let your cat outside then don't get a cat. A zoo keeping a cat, big or small, inside with no access to outdoors would rightly be charged with animal cruelty.
- Zoos don't keep domesticated animals. The physical requirements are not the same, domestic cats are perfectly fine indoors as long as you give them any amount of stimulation. Zoos definitely don't let their tigers out in public unattended
- besides all the reasons not to, house cats that are let out are a plague on ecosystems.

As a coyote, this hurts me more.

I've had to chase the neighbor's cat away several times in the mornings before work because the scrub jays that had a nest in our bushes would be screaming at 5 in the morning because the cat would be out there
- I set up motion detector sprinklers in my yard this year for pretty much the same reason. Has worked really well. I definitely forget they are on sometimes and get blasted but worth it otherwise.

Keep your kids inside too. Kids keep screeching and playing in the middle of the fucking road. Like, get out of the damn road, dumbasses. Someday, a car is gonna hit them.
Leash your pets, leash your kids. Be responsible. Smh
- Also, they love to let the little monsters run around in the stores. Is it my fault I ran over one with my grocery cart in produce? No!
- Non-dumbass parents understand that they aren't raising children, but eventual adults. So yes, they have to balance boundaries and letting them fail and learn. Animals will never turn into the equivalent of adult humans. No, not even the absolute smartest animals ever born...
- This gets downvoted but it hits the truth, though maybe in macaber way.
  Why do we blame cats for killing wildlife while its ok for humans to pave huge pieces of land with concrete and brick or kill biodiversity with pesticides and farm equipment? Maybe humans are the problems, not cats? Or is everyone here living off the grid, does not own a car and produces their own food? Ah and if you have kids you have no argument at all.
  
  Maybe anthropogenic ecological change isn't merely a thought-terminating excuse for all of it's subordinate or constituent problems.