[image] Since many people seem to believe you can't tow with cars, here's roughly what dutch people end up doing on vacation.
[image] Since many people seem to believe you can't tow with cars, here's roughly what dutch people end up doing on vacation.
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This seems not very fuck cars but ok. Also who does not know you can tow with a car?
I think this is in response to stupid large truck vs kei truck thread that made the front page. All the car brains are going on about how everyone ever needs a stupid large truck to tow 85 boats at once
While you don’t need a massive truck to tow things, I also can’t recommend towing with a VW Golf. Towing isn’t just pulling a trailer, it’s also stopping a trailer, keeping it steady at speed, and having a transmission that can handle it and keep temps in check. Longer wheelbases do help with stability at speed and sports brakes aren’t built for towing.
You can bet your ass that if it's certified to pull a certain weight in Europe, all these things have been taken into account.
Easy Google search shows this car should not be pulling a travel trailer.
Motorcycle trailer, sure. But basically best case scenario this trailer is at it's tow capacity, which does not give much wiggle room for failure.
But most likely it's quite past the tow capacity. It's tow capacity is 2000kg/4400lbs. A travel trailer's dry weight is already close to that. If it was a pop up camper that'd be one thing, but this is a full dead ass travel trailer. It's probably around 5000lbs, and who knows what's stuffed in the back. This is a safety issue.
Quick edit: this is not to say you need to own an F150 for the one time a year you do this, but maybe rental?
It's also possible to have cars modified to increase towing capacity. I'm not saying this particular car has had that done. But you do see a lot of Dutch towing trailers in Germany. I've never heard of anything bad happening, other than them clogging the fucking motorways with their slow ass jalopies.
Idk someone else in this thread said that it's kinda a rule in the EU not to buy a used Dutch car with a trailer hitch
What’s the test? Any videos and documentations of these tests?
Thank you! This is more or less what I’m looking for. It’s in German and my German is rusty at best, but I’m glad they’re more specific. Since both are in German is this specific to Germany or EU as a whole? I was digging through the UKs rules which referenced some EU regulations. It sounds like somewhere around the late 90s trailer brakes became mandated per wheel. Which is obviously vastly different from here in the states where it’s kind of an “ehhhhh, good luck.” But at the same token it had me curious if the test is in the same consistent area with consistent factors at play. The SAE here in the states has created a new standard for the US, but it also isn’t used by the manufacturers which plays a big part in our usage of trailers and how we tow and haul here.
It's EU, so it's available in every language.
Also, am not from EU, but my country is in process of accession. Our laws are already being aligned with EU. I think traffic laws are already there. Many other countries just copy these laws since they consider them good.
Ahh, missed that part! I thought it was under the “download document” when you would tap it. I saw the language option but my brain just kind of mixed the two together. Thank you!
You are welcome.
And yet, the Golf is rated for up to 2,000kg in the UK (a select few Diesel models), and a 1,200-1,600kg range is typical for many other editions of that model. That's for a trailer with its own brakes, of course. When I had a trailer with electric brakes, I could stop the whole rig with just the brake controller. I towed that trailer with an S10 Blazer, which had a wheelbase only 4 inches longer than the Golf. The trick was to load it with enough tongue weight that stability was not a problem, rather than relying on a hefty vehicle to overcome sway. I never had a problem with transmission temperatures when keeping the trailer weight under the rated capacity of the vehicle, but an aftermarket oil cooler can always be fitted.
That’s for a trailer with its own brakes, of course.
You won't find a trailer in the EU without its own breaks over 750kg. At least not a legal one.
When I see how much crap is driving on American roads that would have been taken off the road in Europe in under a New York Second, and see how much tighter road safety regulations are in Europe, I'd say rest assured that all of this has been taken into account. Road safety is similar to many other market issues that in Europe, safety comes way before profit.
I don't know a lot about cars, but we used to go caravanning as a kid and my stepdad would always use a long, reasonably-powerful car to tow it. And come to think of it, but I don't think I've ever seen one being towed by a hatchback (and we get a lot of caravans on the road here in the UK)
Surely no one has ever thought of that /s
The problem isn’t that no one’s thought of those things. The problem is that in Countries like the US and UK (and I’m assuming everywhere else, but maybe not) you can tow up to 7500lbs with a standard license. Last time I took my test I don’t recall them asking about towing or making me do it with a trailer. We build systems for the lowest common denominator but honestly vehicle towing is kind of a cluster fuck of “well they can drive a car, how much worse could they be with an extra 15ft and thousands of pounds behind them.” ¯_(ツ)_/¯
You need a towing license for anything heavier than 750kg. Europe and surroundings are like that. For any trailer heavier than 750kg, you need to pass an exam and get a license, no matter what's towing it, be it truck or car and that's the way it should be, heavy trailer behaves differently regardless what's towing it. Then again, if this would apply everywhere we wouldn't have so many funny videos of people fucking up their boats and similar. So carry on.
By the way, categories:
But there are still a lot of people on the road that did learn to drive before that kind of license. I did a class 3 license in Germany right before the transition...
So I have my A, A1, AM, B, BE, C1, C1E license (C1E limited to 7,5t instead of 12) without ever having learned to tow anything.
You are right. Not sure why they did the transition like that. My father has all those and higher even though he hasn't driven a truck for decades now. But it will eventually get better.
Not sure why they did the transition like that.
Because that's exactly what the original class 3 allowed you to drive. Imagine what would have happened if they told everyone with a driving license at that point that it's now only viable for 3,5t vehicles without a trailer and they need to make a new license to keep driving their transporters, small trucks or using their trailers.
Good percentage of drivers is in dire need of refresh on the subject of traffic laws.
At least where I am from, you are allowed to tow heavy trailers (>750 kg) with a B drivers license, if both the car and the trailer combined weigh less than 3.5 t. Light trailers (<750 kg) can be towed by any vehicle up to 3.5 t with a B license. If the combined rated weight is above 3.5 t you need a BE license as well and you have to drive slower.
and I’m assuming everywhere else
Yeah, I've noticed.
Glad someone said it. Just because you can pull something doesn’t mean you can stop or maintain pulling said thing. That being said yeah I agree you don’t always need a truck.
If the car is rated for towing the weight of the trailer, of course it can stop it. That's what the authorities are going to test, among other things, before greenlighting a car with those specifications.
They’ll test it for the weight, however it’s important to understand the testing cycle. Were the tests only setup on flat ground? Did they adequately test braking? Did they ride the brakes for a while? Is there a difference between haulable weight with trailer brakes vs without? It’s also important to note that in the US tow ratings are setup by the manufacturer… which means that numbers are super subjective and simply a circle jerk of who is willing to legally put a larger number on the vehicle.
All the new 3/4 ton trucks can tow more than US drivers with a class C license in most states could legally carry. The numbers are kind of useless IMO.
Will they test it? Absolutely! Every year when I extend registration on vehicle everything gets tested on a car. Vehicle must pass technical exam which lasts some 40minutes. Breaks are tested the longest among other things. They measure not only breaking force but consistency, elongation of disks if you have them, everything.
Of course there are still people out there who don't maintain their vehicle properly after that exam, but at least once a year it has to be in tip top shape. Also if you have a towing hook by new regulation it has to be tested as well and removable. It's actually illegal to drive with it if you are not towing anything, since it effectively negates crumple zones.
People are constantly complaining about how strict these rules here are, but I don't. They save lives.
Thank you, thank you! 100% here in California we have incredibly strict emissions testing, but absolutely ZERO maintenance checks. Which is more of what I worry about since there’s loads of vehicles on the road that have balding tires, abysmal brakes and cracks all over the glass. We’re somehow one of the few states without this kind of testing even though our vehicles need a bi-annual emissions test.
Also, definitely wish people had to remove their tow hitch here in the states. Loads of people’s drive with them in and nothing on it. They’re shin busters on sidewalks.
but absolutely ZERO maintenance checks.
Yes, I was always surprised by what I saw in /r/rolledintotheshoptoday. Many of those cars would be instantly condemned, and not let back on the road except on a trailer to the scrap yard. But still people considered it to be normal to drive those things.
As far as I know, the maximum unbraked trailer mass is 750kg in Europe, although for some cars it can be lower.
With a braked trailer the limit is up to the manufacturer (and your driver's license).
Thank you! How long has the trailer brake been common/mandated over that size in Europe? I tried looking it up but the closest I could find was some UK government website mentioning the 90s (or maybe early 2000s).
Trailer size up to 750kg, anything above it needs special license regardless of what's towing it. Here are the categories:
I did find this regulation regarding towing: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32012R1230
I don't know if any other European regulations regarding the maximum unbraked weight predate this one.
Thank you! That one also showed that they test with all tanks filled to a minimum of 90% and all manufacturer equipment provided. Which was nice to see the specificity on ensuring testing was done with a full vehicle and trailer!
You're welcome. These regulations are usually quite specific, and if something is missing, it usually gets added in a later revision.
I know the car we used to pull our camper back in the early 80ies (Alfa Sud) had different towing limits for trailers with and without brakes. No idea about general limits for trailers, but if your car has those limits you better not be caught exceeding those.
They’ll test it for the weight, however it’s important to understand the testing cycle. Were the tests only setup on flat ground? Did they adequately test braking? Did they ride the brakes for a while?
Well, it seems that you are not familiar with European road safety testing and certification. My BIL was working in that area, and his executive summary of that was: if it passes European tests, you can sign the American test papers, too, as it would pass them with flying colors.
In Europe, it would not get a rating for a certain weight if it was not able to safely handle and stop it.
Oh you mean those 4 door vans that are passed off as a truck? Yeah no one should get those, they can't even tow all that well and what can you even use a 4 foot bed for? These are likely the same people that think you should get a $130k 5th wheel that is 32 feet long.
But I need it to compensate for my shockingly small penis.
Body shaming is stupid.
Alright, shockingly small penis energy.
Might I suggest instead firearms?
I would be mounting unnecessarily large firearms inside of my equally unnecessarily large truck, with a rear window sticker that says "Come And Take It"
As one does, perfectly normal and all.
And that's how American criminals get their guns...
More often taken from people they know rather than stolen from strangers, I believe, but also yes.
In my country, burglars usually leave gun safes alone, as the police would throw everything after them if they stole those. And woe to those gun owners who leave their stuff unsecured. For some reasons, there are not that many illegal guns around here, and "the toddler shot his mother with a gun lying unsecured in the living room" type of stories are something we only know from American news. I wonder why...
You are completely correct I was essentially trying to move along the conversation from the last post.
It's a good way to go. Some people may be unable to imagine not having a car but they may be able to go with a smaller car. It's the car equivalent of going vegetarian 2 days a week.
I would love to go car free but it's basically impossible where I live due to lack of other viable options.
I find it very strange that Americans consider 'trucks' and 'cars' to be two separate things. Trucks are cars.
By law they are separate and distinct. Trucks are subject to less environmental regulations (emissions, mpg) are allowed to not conform as closely to automobile standards (the reason why you see trucks with the hood above the height of small children, and you need a stepladder to climb in) and also have to pass different crash tests to be considered "road safe" (a truck only has to not annihilate another truck in a crash test, but crash tests aren't done with say a truck and a motorcycle, or a truck and a small car)
I don't think it works that way anywhere outside the US. Anyways, shouldn't it be trucks and 'other' cars?
Yeah, I was typing this up from the perspective of US laws. I would hope that it doesn't work that way anywhere else! It is crazy here, haha But yes, it probably should be trucks and 'other' cars.
Yes, they have the law tailored to actually prefer gas guzzlers over normal cars. And less need to care for the drivers or the environments safety.
I have a stupid large truck that can tow boats at 85 (2013 tundra stock) to tow the family camper and I keep that bad boy under 65 when towing and always drive like a kid is going to run out in front. Sure I could drive a kei truck and would fucking love it, however my truck is the smallest in height that I could have gotten that could pull the weight I needed (and if possible I'll make it shorter). Fuck paying the stupid prices at hotels and airbnbs, I camp with my towable home for $30-$80 a night.
I mean this kind of mentality serves me well in Kerbal, but..
That thread was specifically telling craftspeople that they could do their jobs with the little Kei truck rather than a larger one.
If you use your truck for actual work, you want it to be able to do the job. The Kei truck cannot do the same job as the big truck.
It was a stupid comparison. It's like telling someone that they don't need a bucket truck to work on overhead lines or do tree trimming, they can just use a ladder hauled around in a Kei truck. See? Stupid as fuck.
No, the correct post to make would have been to point out the obvious fact that 95% of those huge trucks sold are not used for any sort of work at all, they're just expensive and obnoxious fashion statements.
Funny, though, that in Europe, nearly nobody drives a pickup truck. Not even craftspeople. In this city, I've seen one (one!) private pickup, two used by the cities greens department, one by the forest department, and one by a gardening company (and they are a big gardening company, but they have real trucks for most of the work).
In my personal American experience, there’s a general notion that you need a pickup truck to tow anything; there’s so much marketing about how big tough pickup trucks can tow so much stuff and you really need this. So I think the implication of this post is less of a “fuck cars” and more of a “fuck trucks in particular”
I use my old 3/4 ton all the time it is great for yard work and getting stuff (big things not like groceries). But I would never think of using it to commute or move people. I think people get sold on these trucks being all big and powerful but they always seem to use them like a minivan, and a minivan also can tow things.
AI drive a compact SUV (a glorified hatchback with a raised wheelbase), and took a trailer to cover the western US for my vacation this year, but looking at the vehicle in the post: The only way that works because the car drives at sea level with no grade. I had a trailer, with brakes, ~150 lbs below of my car’s recommended towing capacity, and coming over some passes sounded like I was taking thousands of miles off my car’s transmission.
I've seen Golfs towing caravans over the Alps. Only Americans seem to need a truck for that.
Americans, which is how this post got started. Over on the site that shall remain nameless, one guy unironically told me that I might be able to tow a 150lbs. sailboat with my bicycle on flat ground, but to go up hills would require his truck. Anecdotally, I know a couple who bought a Ford Model F truck to tow a 700lbs. sailboat, because it takes a truck to tow things, despite the total weight of the boat and trailer being less than half the rated capacity for a Honda Civic.
Is yours a geared cycle? I'm pretty sure a cycle frame can carry ~150 kg, but the brakes and your legs might have issues. Like I can carry a 60 kg friend on my (ungeared) cycle on flat roads. But going uphill would definitely be hard, and downhill might be dangerous.
Yes, I have an 8-speed IGH, and a cargo trailer for my bike that's rated for 90kg (200lbs). It adds braking distance, but standard rim brakes handle it fine. To haul a Laser sailboat would take a special trailer, because they're about 4 meters long. It'd be a workout, but eminently possible.
Thanks, that makes sense!