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LGBTQ+ @beehaw.org TheOtherJake @beehaw.org

Help me grow my perspective on openness and sexuality please

I encountered someone saying, "I have no problems with a person's sexual orientation and choice, I have a problem with anyone being openly sexual or flaunting their sexuality in front of me regardless of their choice of orientation."

I am a card carrying atheist. I was raised in one of the worst fundamental christian extremist groups and now live in near isolation from abandoning it nearly 10 years ago. All sexuality was bottled in my life and surroundings. This is still my comfort zone. A part of me wants to hold on to a similar ethos as the person I mentioned above, but I feel like I'm not very confident it is the right inner philosophical balance either.

I'm partially disabled now, so this is almost completely hypothetical. I am honestly looking to grow in my understanding of personal space and inner morality as it relates to others. Someone enlighten me please. Where does this go, what does it mean to you?

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37 comments

  • I have a problem with anyone being openly sexual or flaunting their sexuality in front of me regardless of their choice of orientation.

    A straight couple walks past pushing their baby in a pram

    "How dare they flaunt their sexuality at me!"

    • That is the kind of intuitive conflict I'm looking for to find balance. I know there is more in this space that I have not encountered. This hits hard.

      • I'm not really part of the LGBTQ+ community, just a (mostly) straight guy who's subbed here so I can experience other viewpoints and help grow my own understanding, so take what I say as you will, but ultimately it boils down to:

        It doesn't matter.

        It doesn't matter to you, the casual observer, what other consenting adults are doing. Seriously, it's not your story, so why bother trying to insert yourself into it? Say you see a couple of guys holding hands in the street; how long are you going to hold onto that memory of them? Realistically, they'll walk by and within ten minutes you'll have forgotten they exist, so why let yourself notice them in the first place? Or more to the point, why assign any kind of morality to them?

        As a society, I think we could be far better at letting people just live their lives without assigning our own thoughts and emotions onto them. We don't have their lived experience, so we shouldn't get upset when they don't conform to our internal rulebook.

        But that can be hard to do when we as a species are wired to make quick assessments. Those quick assessments have helped us to evolve to where we currently are, it helped our ancestors rapidly figure out who could be trusted, whether an animal was likely to try and eat us, whether our food could poison us. But none of that makes any sense when it comes to looking at a consenting couple living their lives in public, and immediately placing them in an 'undesirable' box.

        All you can do is what you've done here; engage with people from different backgrounds, and try to learn to understand that, regardless of who they have sex with (or not), or whether their outward look conforms to whatever genitals you suspect they have, they're just people trying to live their lives and be left alone.

  • Well, the attitude of the person you encountered is problematic for a few reasons. The most common is that its almost never applied evenly due to the sexualization of queer bodies; two straight people holding hands or flirting or is fine, but a queer couple doing the same is "flaunting their sexuality". To some, a trans woman just existing is "flaunting sexuality" due to how theyve been trained to think of and conceptualize trans women.

    But assuming the person isnt a hypocrite, its still problematic, because what theyre talking about is a large range of behaviors, ranging from "no sex in public but kissing etc is ok" to shomer negiah to full segregation based on sex. Many (tho not all!) humans are sexual beings with sexual desires and motivations. To say that they cannot express that aspect of themselves in public at all is to prevent them from being their full selves in public. Thats not to say that people should be able to just have sex whereever they want, but that people should be able to express the feeling "i like and am attracted to you" in public (within the bounds of consenting adults, of course).

    • Many (tho not all!) humans are sexual beings with sexual desires and motivations.

      Thanks for the acknowledgment of asexual people like me 😊

      Assuming people actually apply the attitude consistently instead of only to non-straight people, I’m not sure what to think, honestly. There are always going to be people who are made uncomfortable by PDA from any couple, including straight couples. Back when straight was default I knew people who would react unhappily to a straight couple making out and even basic kissing was really pushing it. It seems somehow callous to condemn these people if they apply this standard to everyone equally, it feels like saying “your discomfort is wrong, fix it and stop being so sensitive.” But I also understand that often, if something won’t make a majority of people uncomfortable and isn’t disrespectful/actively harmful it’s usually the responsibility of the uncomfortable person to remove themselves from the situation.

      Social norms have conditioned me into not finding a couple groping each other in public a socially acceptable thing, even if I don’t feel any discomfort with it. The only taboo against displays of affection that I think lies in something other than making people feel uneasy is “no sex in public” because of all the fluids produced. If not cleaned up well and quickly, it sounds ripe for infecting people who unknowingly, say, sit on the same bench someone had sex on. Especially if they have a small cut on the back of their thigh, and it touches where the fluids were… Same logic as “use a toilet, don’t go in public.” No biohazards in public please.

      I’m totally fine with any PDA that isn’t actual sex in public, and the sex reservation is only because of the concern I mentioned above for STDs. I’m making a lot of devil’s advocate arguments against my own perspective because I also want to respect others’ comfort levels and I’m not sure where exactly the line should be drawn.

  • so like, i also had a very christian upbringing, tho i moved past a lot (not all! it took work to shed all that garbage) of those teachings on gender and sexuality thru coming to terms with being trans. like, living without the burden of christian morality and guilt is incredibly freeing.

    bringing this around to pda. i also used to find it off-putting, but it really isn't about you, its ok for human beings to be affectionate with each other, and this is usually only applied to gay people anyway, are you uncomfortable when you see someone hug their grandparents at the airport?

    also, a lot of humans are sexual beings, like there really is no reason to object to people being open about their orientation that isn't based in religious bullshit.

  • Bottled sexuality isn't healthy, mentally or physically. (Asexuality is different.)

    Maybe it's time to start coming out of your comfort zone that way? At least in terms of your thinking if not your doing.

    I have a high enough regard for sex and its importance in to mental, physical and relational health to believe it deserves respect. It is powerful. Many of our subcultures don't give it respect, either seeking to limit and control it overly or going too far in the opposite direction. I'd like that to change, but people are going to people and there's next to nothing I can do to influence others on that. Only in myself and (back before female middle age made me invisible) who I chose to share my sexuality with.

    Consent is another of my guiding principles, where all involved agree on whatever sexual activity is happening. But I don't consider things like holding hands or being out and about with a partner or family to be sexual activity. They're about relationships and they're probably not bringing on sexual arousal in the participants. And most of the things people do in public are more about relationship than sex.

    Does anything in this help you?

    • Over the last days, thinking about this, writing then canceling a half dozen times, then finally posting, and pondering responses, I think the mentally bottled sexuality has been my primary hindrance of emotional growth.

      Growing up in an ostracized small religious group meant default friends because there were only 2-3 kids in an age group. These "friends" coexisted more than developed relationships. I don't know how to develop real relationships beyond those of convenient coexistence. I can readily acknowledge I am emotionally shallow, but unlike intellect where I feel free to pursue curiosity unabated, I don't have a clue where to go with emotional growth. It seems like addressing unrecognized prejudices may be a good starting point. Maybe looking to people bold enough to stand out on their own even against social pressures, is a good idea.

      I think we all turn invisible at 30 too.

      • They say that identifying the problem is half the battle. You're doing alright with that, self-aware, self-honest, reflective and articulate. I'm not seeing someone emotionally shallow in all that you've expressed here, more like a lack of experience.

        Throwing out some ideas for you to mull over and experiment with:
        Ask questions and listen to and reflect on different answers, as you've done here.
        Talk therapy, if you have access to something affordable.
        Journaling, which is like talk therapy with yourself and a notebook. Focus on exploring your feelings and areas you'd like to grow in. It won't be perfect. That's the point.
        Observe others, find roll models (like the bold ones you mention above), but hold your observations lightly. It's easy to get it wrong. This is where fiction is very useful; any misassumptions are between you and the book and the author is a good guide.
        Reading. Reading. Reading. Emotion-centered fiction. Action-centered fiction where the emotions are present but not well articulated. Non-fiction about emotions, including memoirs.
        Visual stories too. Look for emotional arcs, how the characters affect each others' emotions, how your own are affected.
        (Wee aside, Chinese and Korean dramas often go deeper into emotions than US, UK and European ones. There are a lot available for free on youtube and elsewhere.)
        Seek out music that stirs your emotions.
        Journal about your reactions to any of the above that you engage in.
        Imagine. Make up your own stories. It can be fan fiction in your head but keep it coming back to how everyone feels, how they express that, how it influences others.
        Imagine. What you would like to be, what your near-future self is like in a healthy relationship and friendships.
        Bring your natural curiosity. This is a new field to explore and learn about.

        Hopefully a few of those will resonate and work for you, or suggest things which will. You can do this :)

  • If 2 people were having sex on a table in a restaurant, that would be unacceptable. If a parent kissed their child goodbye while dropping them of at daycare, that would be acceptable. Everything else is somewhere in between. The challenge is where to draw the line and is it applied evenly.

    If a parent and child can hold hands, can a hetero couple? If so, can a gay couple? Where do you draw the line, and who draws the line for all of society?

    • I draw the line at a hetero couple entering a shop with the guy keeping his hand shoved down the girl's pants. That's just unsanitary.

      Wouldn't have a problem with some nudists with towels, though.

  • i think this is a great discussion topic, thank you for bringing it up! i should preface this also by saying that my perspective comes from that of a sex averse/repulsed asexual- so in both real life and tv/books/fiction, i get uncomfortable by sexual topics generally speaking. this does extend to some forms of PDA for couples of all orientation as well, though i should clarify that i have no issue with what consenting adults do in their homes, as that is not my business.

    others have already pointed out that the exact phrase you included tends to unfairly target queer people, so i will touch on it as though it were being equally applied to straight and queer people. if others being sexual in public makes you uncomfortable, there is nothing wrong with staying in that mindset in my opinion, especially if it is your comfort zone as is. while moving out of it could be personally beneficial if possible (not being uncomfortable is more pleasant than being uncomfortable), it’s not morally wrong to be uncomfortable. don’t let anyone make you believe otherwise.

    while passing judgement on others for being sexual in public is a separate topic, and one many here would say is immoral, idk how to feel. i really try not to judge others for PDA, but if it’s like, really intense… i think it’d be lying to say i don’t judge others at all for it. but i don’t think that’s objectively morally wrong or something, i just have my own quiet opinions and keep them to myself. that’s okay too.

  • For me, a simple, intuitive, and practical way to discuss and evaluate morality is to evaluate net social harm/good.

    The only real social harms that can come from sexual behavior between consenting adults are unplanned pregnancy and sexually transmitted disease.

  • Many comments were about the side topic of public PDA. I think another way to view consent is from the angle of the basic human need for autonomy (choice). We all have a right to decide when we want to be sexually stimulated or not. What stimulates pleasant sensations for one person may stimulate unpleasant sensations for another. There is a continuum that is highly situationally dependent. Society tries to work around this by setting clear expectations around perceived sexual stimulation. What is expected on Paris streets is different from what is expected in Chicago. What is expected on a beach in Spain is quite different than what is expected on a beach in Maine. (While public nudity isn't inherantly sexual, some may find it titillating if not accustomed). We get into trouble when the expectations are not clear, not well communicated to outsiders, there are people who intentionally try to act outside of what is expected, or a person's individual proclivity isn't a good match for what is expected.

    If you want to become more open to sexuality, consider the truth that "whenever I am upset, I have the opportunity to become curious and increase my awareness". Change comes from awareness. Since you encounted sexual neglect (purity culture?) as a child, you may benefit from EMDR therapy to help unravel and heal. A book that was transformative for me is "Enjoy Sex (How, when and if you want to) A Practical and Inclusive Guide by Meg-John Barker".

  • Try this thought experiment.

    A straight man kisses another straight man in public. Both hate it.

    The act itself is not sexual and doesn't represent their orientation. All the discomfort or whatever you may feel after watching it has nothing to do with them, but with you own point of view.

    All the rest I could say was already mentioned before here. This is just to reframe the problem.

  • If, for years, newspapers have announced weddings (because people enjoy reading about locals getting married) then someone has a stick up their ass if people are participating in light PDA such as holding hands, hugging, or a quick kiss (or a long one for those really special moments that everyone can relate to).

    Seeing two people in love with each other should bring people joy, we all don't have much in common other than enjoying the affection of another person (sometimes lol).

    If someone can understand that people may want to have parades/rallies (or the reasons for having done so in the past) to celebrate their religious or any other personal freedom even as mundane as being able to smoke weed to more substantial freedoms such as sufferage, then they can deal with Pride month until we can all agree to stop being dicks.

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