Out of the loop @lemmy.world Phyrin @lemmy.world 1 yr. ago

Whats with the Lemmygrad hate?

What’s with all the downvotes?

Saw a few threads get blasted, and a de-federation post - did I miss the drama?

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I'm just so done with the topic. I don’t want to engage in lengthy internet debates that benefit no one and only serve to reinforce each person's initial stance. I have no interest either in debating against or in favor of tankies.

Although as far as my experience here on lemmy/kbin has been, the people who seem far more interested in making posts (not talking about this one) and constantly bring up the topic are anti-tankies. There seems to be a group of the community here that is fervently anti-tankie, and has to let everyone know at every chance how much they despise tankies and how evil tankies are and so on. These people are the most tiresome by far, at least in my experience, I have yet to come across any of the much dreaded tankie content. Maybe it's because for some of the people in this group the mere fact (I don't know how much of a fact is it and I honestly do not care) of the admins of lemmy.ml being tankies is enough to trigger their outrage and anger.

I will say this, why are any of us placing so much focus (and for some, outrage) on some very niche groups of terminally online leftists, when there's been a very scary rise of fascism worldwide, especially in Europe and US, that is currently getting worse? I can guarantee you this new wave of fascism enjoys far more popular support than Marxist-Leninists have, or ever have in western countries. Seems like worrying over the mosquito that’s biting your arm while there's a polar bear mauling the other side of your body. (Before anyone tries the “but tankies support fascism” gotcha, you should know actual Marxist-Leninists outside of these terminally online spaces do not support the current Russian imperial oligarchy, maybe people should also get informed about the concept of critical support, which is still very debatable)

I wish we had keyword filters on Kbin so I could be done with any and all content regarding the word “tankie”

Edit: To the very nice people who felt the need, Reddit-style, of just downvoting me without even taking part in the conversation. This goes out to you all: https://youtu.be/8mpeixSXYVU
- How do I upvote you more than once?
  
  Not only is your argument well thought out, but your observations closley match those I've seen.
  
  I chronically search by all>new, and other than people reposting screenshots (from a month ago) of Grad's outrage at being de-federated, I have yet to see tankie posts.
  
  Honestly, I think the two sides (tankie and anti tankie) are both teenager/20s looking at their side with rose coloured glasses.
  
  Have you heard of our bae communism? Never mind that ugly business in 1970s Cambodia tee hee.
  
  Have you heard about our bae Fascism? Franco did nothing wrong!
  
  Well for one I'm grateful to read at least someone thought it was a reasonable opinion because I've seem to have gotten a personal record of people mad.
  
  I thought we could be done with the Reddit-style attitude towards downvotes (especially with votes being public and all), I'm talking about people who are not even in the conversation and just happen to be lurking and downvote because they don't like your comment or whatever. Such a lame thing to do.
  
  If you disagree with someone over the content of their comment you can reply with your thoughts. Save the downvotes for trolls, bad faith actors, people spewing hate speech (especially fascist rhetoric) and people who are aggressively argumentative to the point of being disrespectful. We can keep it civil if we exclude the usual suspects of hate and trolling.
  
  if u disagree with someone over the content of their comment you can reply with your thoughts. Save the downvotes for trolls, bad faith actors, people spewing hate speech (especially fascist rhetoric) and people who are aggressively argumentative to the point of being disrespectful. We can keep it civil if we exclude the usual suspects of hate and trolling.
  
  I made a post about exactly this.
- This is consistent with my experience. Haven't seen any tankie content, but I've seen constant whining about commies from people who are still upset about the fall of Berlin.
- I will say this, why are any of us placing so much focus (and for some, outrage) on some very niche groups of terminally online leftists, when there’s been a very scary rise of fascism worldwide, especially in Europe and US, that is currently getting worse? I can guarantee you this new wave of fascism enjoys far more popular support than Marxist-Leninists have, or ever have in western countries. Seems like worrying over the mosquito that’s biting your arm while there’s a polar bear mauling the other side of your body
  
  there is a single post about lemmygrad among a multitude of news articles about said rise of fascism, i dont really know why youre seemingly under the impression that people are complaining about tankies instead of fascism
  
  it sounds like youre suggesting that folks should just shelve any issues with problematic groups while fascisms about, which sounds like a terrible idea even if fascism wasnt an ever present danger
  
  also, those fascists do not have a serious presence on this platform compared to lemmygrad, it shouldnt be surprising that folks will discuss the toxic behaviour of an instance when its as big a part of the fediverse' userbase as lemmygrad. the only one even remotely comparable is exploding-heads, which definitely gets at least as much hate
  
  (Before anyone tries the “but tankies support fascism” gotcha, you should know actual Marxist-Leninists outside of these terminally online spaces do not support the current Russian imperial oligarchy, maybe people should also get informed about the concept of critical support, which is still very debatable)
  
  but were specifically talking about the marxists on these terminally online spaces that support the current russian imperial oligarchy
  
  ignoring that lemmygrad only ever accepts the concept of critical support when it comes to their support of inhumane regimes, its also just not particularly applicable when its their tendency to defend specifically those inhumane practices that people are disagreeing with
  
  there is a single post about lemmygrad
  
  If you check the front page semi-regularly I'm sure you will have seen there's a constant influx, to put it lightly, of memes complaining nonstop about Lemmygrad, tankies, tankie ideology and so on. I'm far from a very active user and I've been able to notice.
  Sure, there are news articles being posted about fascism, but an equal response? Don't be disingenuous. Where are all the memes about rising fascism? All the same outrage in the comments? The response is far from symmetrical.
  
  were specifically talking about the marxists on these terminally online spaces that support the current russian imperial oligarchy.
  
  Are we though? Cause most of the posts and comments seem to be addressing tankies as a whole. Not recognizing that these two are being used interchangeably to mean one and the same would be arguing in bad faith.
  
  And implying Lemmygrad is an accurate representation of the current geopolitical positions of Marxist-Leninist communities in real life is laughable at best and a purposefully disingenuous strawman at worst.
  
  i dont think repeatedly accusing me of being disingenuous, arguing in bad faith or putting up straw-men is warranted, and it doesnt really give me the idea that youre actually interested in good faith arguments
  
  it feels exactly like reddit-style toxicity, and i dont think its fair to respond with that when i dont see that sort of thing in my comment
  
  moving on
  
  If you check the front page semi-regularly I’m sure you will have seen there’s a constant influx, to put it lightly, of memes complaining nonstop about Lemmygrad, tankies, tankie ideology and so on. I’m far from a very active user and I’ve been able to notice. Sure, there are news articles being posted about fascism, but an equal response? Don’t be disingenuous. Where are all the memes about rising fascism? All the same outrage in the comments? The response is far from symmetrical.
  
  i looked through the most upvoted posts this week, about a dozen pages down, and couldnt actually find a single post complaining about lemmygrad. maybe it was there, i sure didnt see it. i did see memes about jordan peterson fear mongering about socialism, transphobes being petty morons, cops being murderers, and the cia assassinating journalists
  
  i also saw constant posting about the rise of fascism in the usa, constant posts about especially GOP fuckery, a couple support posts from folks who were worried about a family member or themselves getting fascist content suggested to them, a post about an instance admin getting raided by the fbi for their involvement in a protest etc, all with significant outrage or support in the comments depending on whether it was fascists getting away with shit or fascists getting hurt
  
  just to reiterate, there might have been a post complaining about lemmygrad in those twelve pages, but i doubt i missed more than that
  
  it doesnt seem at all like folks are spending more effort complaining about tankies than fascists, and the way youre describing this site is so far removed from my experience with it that im entirely convinced its just specific to Kbin
  
  Are we though? Cause most of the posts and comments seem to be addressing tankies as a whole. Not recognizing that these two are being used interchangeably to mean one and the same would be arguing in bad faith.
  
  we are specifically talking about tankies, which are hard-line marxists who shamelessly support inhumane regimes, on lemmygrad, a terminally online space which usually supports the current russian imperialist oligarchy
  
  i dont know what 'these two' is referring to, unless you mean 'tankie' and 'marxist who supports inhumane regimes'
  
  in which case yes, theyre used interchangeably because thats what tankie means
  
  if someone says 'tankie' to refer to marxists in general theyre the weird one
  
  And implying Lemmygrad is an accurate representation of the current geopolitical positions of Marxist-Leninist communities in real life is laughable at best and a purposefully disingenuous strawman at worst.
  
  im at a complete loss at how you took any of that from my comment, and i genuinely dont know how to respond to this or address it because I dont know what its responding to
  
  i dont think repeatedly accusing me of being disingenuous, arguing in bad faith or putting up straw-men is warranted, and it doesnt really give me the idea that youre actually interested in good faith arguments
  it feels exactly like reddit-style toxicity, and i dont think its fair to respond with that when i dont see that sort of thing in my comment
  
  If that's your take from my comment then I won't be the one telling you you're wrong but the language I used tried to specifically avoid this. For example, “Don't be disingenuous” “to do x would be arguing in bad faith” “to imply x is purposefully disingenuous at worst” all avoid directly accusatory language like “You are being disingenuous” “You're arguing in bad faith” and so on.
  Maybe the difference between the two wasn't conveyed clearly enough and that's my mistake.
  As a side note, I'm not actually interested in arguments, either good or bad faith. I think I made that clear with my first comment (Yet here I am, I know right)
  
  it doesnt seem at all like folks are spending more effort complaining about tankies than fascists, and the way youre describing this site is so far removed from my experience with it that im entirely convinced its just specific to Kbin
  
  That's why my first comments were always referred as being my personal experience (I didn't bother to keep repeating “IME”). Two persons can have totally different experiences and interact with very different kinds of posts in an organic way, and that's valid.
  Although I will say several people have replied to my previous comment stating they've had similar experiences regarding finding lots of anti-tankie memes and circlejerking, not that it adds much validity to my personal experience and opinions, but it means it's not just me or that I came up with it.
  I don't really know how much of it is limited to Kbin since that's as far as my interaction with the Fediverse currently goes.
  
  we are specifically talking about tankies, which are hard-line marxists who shamelessly support inhumane regimes, on lemmygrad, a terminally online space which usually supports the current russian imperialist oligarchy
  
  You are using the flawed logic of “all Lemmygraders are tankies ergo all tankies are Lemmygraders”. Like I said before, most of the posts and comments are addressing tankies as a whole, and using the term interchangeably with the people on Lemmygrad to mean one and the same. Maybe you aren't consciously doing it (I don't think you are), maybe you just want to discuss the specifics of the Lemmygrad community, which I'm not interested in at all. But you have to recognize this is being done and that it effectively thwarts any attempts at honest and civil discussion, it further muddies the waters.
  Because I take no interest whatsoever in Lemmygrad and Lemmygrad-related discussion, but I'm quite bothered and annoyed at the posts calling out and complaining about tankies, most of the time referring to the Lemmygrad people with that name. And like I said, others and I have run into posts like this.
  
  I'm at a complete loss at how you took any of that from my comment, and i genuinely dont know how to respond to this or address it because I dont know what its responding to
  
  I'm kinda baffled at how you could not see the conflation of the terms tankie and Lemmygrader, I'm gonna insist in that this is not a direct accusation (“Implying x would be y“) or something that I took from your comment. But rather a reality that must be acknowledged because it is happening and it is being done, and it effectively affects any and all kind of attempts at discussion in a negative way. (Are we mad about Lemmygrad, or are we mad about tankies? The difference is quite important)
  
  I feel like we are not going to reach common ground in that last point so all that is left is for me to wish you a nice day.
  
  i appreciate the elaboration and am sorry for interpreting your comment as accusatory as i did
  
  i agree that that were probably not gonna reach common ground, or at least there seems to be such a disconnect communication wise that the amount of effort isnt really worth it for an internet discussion
  
  have a good one
- I'm just so done with the topic. I don’t want to engage in lengthy internet debates that benefit no one and only serve to reinforce each person's initial stance.
  
  Yep. I've learned this long ago. No use getting into an internet fight. It's not going to change anything but your mood
- I will say this, why are any of us placing so much focus (and for some, outrage) on some very niche groups of terminally online leftists, when there's a been a very scary rise of fascism worldwide, especially in Europe and US, that is currently getting worse?
  
  I won't be playing the game of what-aboutism. Authoritarianism is bad no matter where it appears. It exists on both sides of the political aisle, and it should be rebuked every time, regardless of how prevalent you think it is on your team.
  
  @JasSmith @Phyrin @BrokebackHampton
  
  Can you show me an example of a hard-leftist shoving their ideology down someone else's throat?
  
  How about a Hard-Leftist that crafted, then got passed a law that restricts the choices of the hard-right?
  
  Are there numerous cases of Leftists driving through crowds or maybe shooting up a synagogue, that I'm unaware of?
  
  I'm not saying the Left is perfect, but I call bullshit on the equivocation of the 2 sides.
  
  Can you show me an example of a hard-leftist shoving their ideology down someone else's throat?
  
  Sure. Last year Biden issued an executive order to enshrine gender transition for children across the entire nation. The vast majority of Americans oppose "gender affirming care" for children. In red states, support is even lower. Biden should have left this up to individuals, parents, and states, but instead decided that his and his party's values should be shoved down the throats of the entire nation.
  
  Are there numerous cases of Leftists driving through crowds or maybe shooting up a synagogue, that I'm unaware of?
  
  Here is one mass shooter. Aiden Hale was trans, and killed students and teachers at a christian school. Aiden wrote a manifesto, but the police are yet to release it.
  
  Here is another. Kimbrady Carriker is a BLM and pride supporting, cross-dressing, mass-shooter.
  
  Here is a "non-binary" shooter.
  
  Here is another trans shooter.
  
  And another.
  
  I fully expect you to play the game of "but they're not REEEEEAL leftists," and I don't care. I'm not claiming that both sides are equivalent. I'm saying that authoritarianism is always bad, no matter where it appears.
  
  Joseph “nothing will fundamentally change” Biden is a hard-leftist now?
  
  @NXTR @Phyrin @BrokebackHampton @JasSmith
  
  You would have to ask JasSmith that question.
  
  I'm asking you, now directly, to stop quoting me in every single comment. Jeez dude.
  
  @BrokebackHampton @Phyrin @JasSmith @NXTR
  
  Solving that problem right now!
  
  This is what I get for replying while distracted
  
  This may be the dumbest, least accurate thing I have ever read. Are you Mike Lyndell?
  
  Interesting how you neglected to bring up all of the straight, white, male, conservative, cisgender mass shooters that outweigh LGBT/BLM shooters by several orders of magnitude. Acting like the issue doesn't skew drastically in one direction is disingenuous at best.
  
  @JasSmith @Phyrin @BrokebackHampton
  
  Lets start with the easy one:
  
  So Biden's trans-gender EO is forcing children to transition?!?!
  
  OR
  
  Giving them a choice?
  
  I could not care less about what "Red States" want, since they haven proven they've lost their minds.
  
  They don't want, they DEMAND, a religious nation, under their personal God, because he's the bestest one, in a country founded, in part, on religious freedom.
  
  I'm at work, but I'll take a look at those shooter articles.
  
  @JasSmith @Phyrin @BrokebackHampton
  
  As far as what you "fully expect", that's mostly why I plan to exit this conversation. Not because I don't have rebuttals, but you've already made your decision about who I am, what I think and what I'm going to say, so, honestly, why bother?
  
  and there it fucking is
  
  I think they're rebuking people for being hypocritical and not actually paying attention; like fascism really is the bigger danger rn, while most people in the US at least have like kneejerk negative reactions to the concept of communism
  
  like it is not a "both sides are equally bad" thing

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