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"But it wasn't real socialism". Other attempts to create socialist government.
But that is almost universally said in response to people pointing to things that were in no way socialism or communism. They have actual definitions.
The glorious democratic people's republic of korea is literally none of those things and no one is stupid enough to fall for a name there, but it happens all the time something like China.
And there is no single definition of socialism or communism, it's all a matter of debate. Some definition of it could contradict each other. I'm willing to support some social democrats, but when it comes to Marxist-Leninists or Maoists, well... treat them the same way fascists are treated.
Except there is exactly that: socialism is where the working class owns the means of production.
Anyone who suggests otherwise is normally a right wing or centrist nutjob. People who debate if the USSR are debating how well it meets that criteria, not what the criteria actually is.
Also there are loads of people who are socialists but not MLs. Not all communists are MLs or Maoists either. Anarchist communists, libertarian marxists are communists that don't fit into that group. Anarchists in general are socialists that don't agree with MLs or Maoists or authoritarian regimes like China or the USSR.
Stop going around spouting centrist nonsense and actually read socialist theories if you want to legitimately criticise it. You can't criticise such a broad range of systems without first understanding what they are and what they have in common.
Bruh, I just wrote that there are different types if socialists. MLs think that whatever they did is workers owning the means of production. It just so happens that this ML ideology is the state ideology of the wast majority of "socialist" states.
I clearly wrote that I have no problem with liberal leftists by giving socila democrats as example of socialists I would support. Is not liking MLs a centrist nonsense?
And I have no problem with any leftists until they do not start to oppose the democratic system with checks and balances. Which they, especially ML types, often do.
So basically anyone left of a social democrat you don't support? As far as I am concerned social democrats aren't real socialists but support hybrid economy.
Out of curiosity do you have any problem with anarchist communism, market socialism, or any other true socialist ideology that is pro civil liberties?
Also MLs do want a democracy, it's called democratic socialism (which are different from social democrats, yes it's confusing). As far as they are concerned the democracy we live in now isn't real, and I tend to agree with them on this as do many other leftist groups. Just to be clear I haven't been an ML in a while.
I basically disagree with any left or right wing person that want to destroy, through revolution or any other means, democratic system with it's checks and balances. Basically if your desired political system implies that there is no separation of power, I consider it authoritarian. And of course freedom of press, respecting human rights and not persecuting opposition is also an important part of it.
How can a society without a state - anarchism - possibly be authoritarian? There are no police or military to enforce any authoritarian policies is many forms of anarchism. What you are saying doesn't make sense.
I actually agree with you that MLs can be authoritarian. That's part of why I left those ideologies behind. What I don't agree with is painting all socialist ideologies with the same brush. Some are based on direct democracy which is always going to be more democratic than representative democracy, weather you think that's a good thing or not.
I also don't believe we live in a true democracy as it's controlled through political and economic corruption including lobbying, as well as the two-party system created through FPTP voting systems. Not to mention manufactured consent. So to me those checks and balances aren't that effective, especially compared to real direct democracy.
Edit: also MLs believe in checks and balances last I checked. The USSR was full of bureaucracy for this very reason.
Generally, anarchism seems to me like a dysfunctional mess or just a state with extra steps. And I don't see direct democracy working for any society with big population without leading to tyranny of majority, which I see as an authoritarian form of government. Not even mentioning that through direct democracy could rise some tyrant.
To clarify everything, by using democracy I mainly mean representative democratic republic. Direct democracy could be reasonably incorporated in democratic process, like it's done in Switzerland.
Imho, modern democratic systems have a lot of problems but in no way as much and as grave as its alternatives.
And no, ML do not believe in checks and balances. Having a lot of bureaucracy doesn't mean you have implemented the system of checks and balances. Marxism-Leninism presupposes creation of one party state controlled by the communist party, where the communist party is the supreme authority. Doesn't sound like a system with checks and balances.
Generally, anarchism seems to me like a dysfunctional mess or just a state with extra steps. And I don’t see direct democracy working for any society with big population without leading to tyranny of majority, which I see as an authoritarian form of government. Not even mentioning that through direct democracy could rise some tyrant.
So you don't actually care about being democratic as end in itself then.
And no, ML do not believe in checks and balances. Having a lot of bureaucracy doesn’t mean you have implemented the system of checks and balances. Marxism-Leninism presupposes creation of one party state controlled by the communist party, where the communist party is the supreme authority. Doesn’t sound like a system with checks and balances.
There are systems like Cuba which have multiple houses which vote on issues - just like USA and UK have multiples voting bodies. These people are representatives elected by the people. Grouping them into distinct parties doesn't make it more democratic and I can't see how it adds checks and balances.
So you don’t actually care about being democratic as end in itself then.
I care about representative democratic republic with system of check and balances. Basically the system majority of people imagine when someone mentions democratic countries. I think it's the best system that showed itself to provide prosperity, stability, respect for human rights and so on.
Grouping them into distinct parties doesn’t make it more democratic and I can’t see how it adds checks and balances.
The problem there is with checks and balances. Allowing other political parties to take your place if you f up, is an important part of it.
Except there is exactly that: socialism is where the working class owns the means of production.
No that's Marxism. Socialism existed before Marx. Generally socialism is understood to be some form of collective ownership(in a strict form) by a community or state, but that could take the form of worker control, complete democratic control, or what it is in a lot of cases which is technocratic beuracrat control. In a less strict form it could even include voluntary cooperation.
that's just various examples of the working class owning (and managing) the means of production
So the USSR was socialist? And so is North Korea? The state controls the means of production.
Did I say they were? I was referring to "collective ownership (in a strict form) by a community or state [which]...take[s] the form of worker control, complete democratic control" as an example of the working class owning the means of production, and challenging the idea that "collective ownership" and "working class ownership of the means of production" are mutually exclusive.
I didn't say "which", I said "could". While what I said does include what you said, it also includes "collective ownership (in a strict form) by a community or state…which is technocratic beuracrat control"
That's because there are plenty of actually democratic governments and none of socialistic.
Couldn't I just say what you point to as a failure of capitalism is in no way a free market?
Markets ≠ capitalism
Even an idealized capitalist market economy found in economic models violates workers' inalienable rights. The only way to fix that problem is Economic Democracy where all firms are structured as democratic worker coops @lemmyshitpost
Capitalism doesn't have a founder, it has no one to write what it's core tennants are. So yeah of course you can redefine it to be whatever you want and I could do the same. That's why it's more useful to be more precise, which is why I said it's not a free market, which I suspect you also oppose. But again, no country is anywhere near a free market, just as no country was anywhere near Marx's communism.
I am not redefining Capitalism. I am defining it the way capitalists do. Even in the idealized economic models of fully free market capitalism, capitalism is still wrong. Fully free market capitalism would still inherently violates workers' inalienable rights.
Depends on what is meant by a free market.
Marx's communism is not the only alternative to capitalism. There are market-based alternatives to capitalism as well
Who says Socialism isn't Socialism?
You doubt the existence of people who think that any self-proclaimed socialistic country is not socialistic? Really?
I doubt the existence of people who deny every Socialist state as Socialist. I agree with people who say the Nazis weren't Socialist despite calling themselves as such, because they were fascists that relied on privitization and Capitalism, but I'm sure that wasn't your point.
I'm eager to read what countries do you think are actually socialistic. Give me a list please.
Why? You just trying to pick a fight? Kinda cringe. No matter what I'd answer you'd start shit.
You tried to accuse me of equivocating Nazis with socialists. Now urn saying I am the one who is trying to pick fight?
I asked the list of countries in order to provide with socialist critics of that specific countries.
Nah. Just state what you actually mean by your first comment, and we are good to go.
That all attempts to implement socialism in real life ended badly. But to be generous, I will concede that I meant mainly marxist-leninist types if socialism.
Great, thanks for actually answering. You're wrong, of course, but thanks for actually answering, again. Good on you.
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Socialism, ie worker ownership of the Means of Production, has had massive success in stability and worker satisfaction for Worker Co-operatives when compared to their Capitalist competitors.
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Libertarian style Socialism has been successful in areas like the Chiapas region.
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Even Marxism-Leninism has drastically improved metrics such as literacy and life expectancy in the major areas it was applied, such as the USSR and Maoist China, Cuba, etc. despite issues with how democracy was handled with upper Soviets having immense power.
I'm more of an Anarchist, personally, but the statement that "Socialism has always ended poorly" is just wrong. The most major example of a Socialist state falling is of course the USSR, which had a number of internal issues that ultimately didn't arise because workers owned the Means of production, but because as a developing country, they wanted access to global trade for luxury commodities from western countries, which led to liberalization and now the current fascism in the Russian Federation is a direct result of these Capitalists swooping in and purchasing everything they could, leading to what liberals call "Oligarchy."
Even then, the USSR doubled life expectancy, and the majority of Russians want it back, when compared to modern fascism in Russia.
On Lemmy, you'll find that most people generally accept that Marxism-Leninism is Socialism, even if they firmly disagree with it. You'll also find Marxist-Leninists on other instances like lemmygrad or hexbear, but you'll find it's usually Anarchists outside of that.
Wait so what's your example of a functioning socialist state/economy? You mention the USSR, Maoist China, Cuba and the Chiapas. Which of these do you consider a success?
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