Update on the Library Display
Update on the Library Display
Before I get started, if you don’t know what the Library display is here is my initial post about it.
So I did say i would ask my professors about this display to see if they knew who put it up, why it was put up, and if they even knew what the red and black flag meant.
The first professor I talked to was my Political Science one. I entered his office to chat and before I could ask him about the display he asked me about my paper, then proceeded to give me lots of advice for it. That was not what I was ready for but whatever. I then asked him if he saw the display in the library, he said no. I asked if he knew what it was about even if he hadn’t seen it, again he said no. He told me to explain it to him and I did, it was the “soldiers of freedom” display with a bunch of posters. He seemed to sort of know what I was talking about. I asked him if he knew who put it up, he didn’t know but thinks it may have been the Library itself or the Ukrainian “club” at school (its more official than a club but I don’t know what to call it without outing my location). Before i showed him the photos of the posters with the OUN flag I gave him a disclaimer that I was asking a very fair question, and while he is allowed to feel however he wants I would appreciate not being projected on. After he was primed I showed him my phone and asked him what the flag was, in the picture I showed him the Ukrainian flag was also there and he pointed it out, I had to say I was asking about the red one specifically. He looked at it for a bit and said he didn’t know. I tried to push him on it a bit more but he seriously didn’t know. He then asked me if I knew what it was and I said no. He told me that because its on a soldier display it might be that specific militia’s insignia. I wasn’t super happy with this but tried to play it cool.
He then asked if I was interested in this and I said yes. He then said he is a part of the Ukrainian “club” and can take me to the office to ask them about it, I shot this down right away. I tried to push again, “you really don’t know?” He said that he is anti-war and doesn't involve himself with military stuff so he’s unaware of what the insignia means, he finds war and stuff like it objectionable. With that I asked if he found the display objectionable, he got a little thrown off by this and said that we have a large Ukrainian diaspora here and this is their way too show support to their soldiers fighting to protect their territory. He then brought up the surge in Russophobia in Canada, like for example during a heritage day event the Russian pavilion was banned from appearing which is horrible (we both agreed on that) was one of the big ones, and that many Russians have to stay quiet nowadays even if they support Ukraine (this probably isn’t what he meant but is the only good Russian the one that supports Ukraine?). He then asked me if I found the display objectionable, I had to lie and say I didn’t really know. It was an odd and very disappointing conversation.
I couldn’t really find an opening to ask Tovarish Tomato’s question but I did when I asked my History professor about it. (I don’t know how to tag people)
During office hours for my History professor I spent the first half discussing the class material (which I wont talk about here to save you guys from that). After that I asked him if he saw the display in the library, he said no. I then explained it to him to give him an idea. After he understood I skipped the question about who could’ve displayed it as he had no idea it even existed. So I went straight to telling him that four out of the 24 posters had this symbol on it and I wanted to know if he knew what it was. When I showed him the flag he also said he didn’t know, he asked if I knew and I lied saying I didn’t know (I don’t know if he believed me). He then opened his computer and looked it up. He went to the Wikipedia and skimmed it a bit, coming to the conclusion that it is associated with Ukrainian nationalism, with far right connotations, and neo-Nazis. He knows I’m planning on writing my history paper about the genocide in the Donbas and he thought maybe this interrogation was related. He went on to explain that because of the famine many Ukrainians had their nationalism fuelled and sided with the Nazis. I tried to explain away my motivations as just curiosity because I am not about to put a target on my back with the school.
This all happened on Wednesday, today I went back and asked Tovarish Tomato’s question.
When I entered his office I cut right to the case saying that my question had nothing to do with class and it was about the poster display and the symbol used in some of the posters. I said that it was really bothering me and I would appreciate a historian’s perspective because I’m having a hard time. I then asked “do you think it is appropriate and responsible to showcase an artist that utilizes neo-Nazi imagery in his works in the university.” I know that wasn’t Tovarish Tomato’s question word for word but I think we all know I have to rephrase things for my own safety.
He then said that he isn’t sure and that he would need to know more about what that OUN flag means to the people who put up the posters. If it means fascism then it’s bad to display, but if the flag means Ukrainian freedom from Russian oppression then it’s fine. He then said that symbols change meaning and this one could very well mean something else so we have to keep that in mind (reclamation and all that). If it was the swastika or the confederate flag then it would be an actual issue. He then asked if I had a problem with this display, and I really tried to play it off, saying I didn’t care anymore, but I don’t think he believed me one bit because he pushed on it and I just told him that I just have to deal with whatever the university approves of whether I like it or not.
He then explained that he was not a historian on Ukraine so he isn’t the best authority on this subject, I then brought up Ivan Katchanovski as a source for information if I wanted to know more. He didn’t know who he was so I told him again and I guess he’s going to look into him more. He then told me about Timothy Snyder, an American historian who apparently knows a lot about Ukraine, he then said I might not like him. I asked if he’s American, he said yes, I then said “yeah I might have issues with him.” As a little dig because American scholars can be the absolute worst. So with us exchanging scholars our chat ended and I went to the Library to study.
And what do you know? The display is still there….
He went on to explain that because of the famine many Ukrainians had their nationalism fuelled and sided with the Nazis.
except that many many many more Ukrainians were fighting on the side of the soviet union.
I tried to explain away my motivations because I am not about to put a target on my back with the school.
don't you already have a target on your back by writing about donbas and being openly marxist with some professors? i mean to say that you might be more open with your politics than you give yourself credit.
don’t you already have a target on your back by writing about donbas and being openly marxist with some professors
You’re right, I’m terrible at hiding it. I guess by target I mean not going to administration/official channels with my problems and being explicitly against the war. There’s also the fact that I don’t say anything in front of students as they are much more dangerous than my professors.
My PoliSci professor knows about me wanting to teach Marxism and probably can tell I’m one based on my papers but, like you said, Marxism is not seen as a threat in academia so I don’t feel too bad talking to him about it, though I never bring it up anymore (he has though). Ideologically I’m opaque to my history professor (his words not mine) he claims to have no idea what I’m about.
I know I’m pushing it a lot but I’m so desperate for even a sliver of support, just a tiny bit. Other students can rely on their professors but so far I really really can’t and that sucks. It sucks being the only one who cares.
I'd be careful with this style of inquiry, SpaceDogs. It doesn't sound like it, here, but if you are speaking to a crypto fascist, they won't like the idea that you're going to out them.
A better tactic may be keeping an eye out for people who should/would be horrified by a public display of that flag. Speak with those people first. Better to do something with them than to try to push for a change on your own.
It's unlikely that any of your profs will put their career on the line over a poster with a flag that hardly any normies have heard about. Especially given they the institution itself apparently supports the display. Things like this will have to go through so many channels. Lots of people with the power to make the decision have already seen the display and agreed to it.
As your prof said, they might say something if it was a swastika. But anything that can be brushed off as nationalism/patriotism, will be brushed off; except by those who explicitly mean something else by it – and they won't appreciate your criticism.
The difference would be if there are any organised professors, maybe in a union? But that's going to be difficult as even the organised Western left seems willing to dismiss Nazism if doing the right thing would get in the way of their hatred of Russia.
I’d be careful with this style of inquiry, SpaceDogs. It doesn’t sound like it, here, but if you are speaking to a crypto fascist, they won’t like the idea that you’re going to out them.
Your right, I’m not being as careful as I could be, but I figured my professors were the safest people to go to with this. I’m avoiding administration and other official areas of the school because I know it would put me in more danger (like when my PoliSci professor offered to bring me to the Ukrainian “club” to ask).
A better tactic may be keeping an eye out for people who should/would be horrified by a public display of that flag.
I honestly thought that’s what I was doing, being this to an educated person to hopefully find some sort of common ground. Looks like that back fired on me. I know it’s dangerous for me but I don’t know what else to do, I haven’t the slightest idea how to find people who object to such displays without outright asking. Everyone so far is unassuming , if they feel the way I do then they’re keeping it quiet.
It’s unlikely that any of your profs will put their career on the line over a poster with a flag that hardly any normies have heard about.
I didn’t think it would be enough to harm their careers, so I guess I understand inaction. Then again, the professors I asked don’t seem to be bothered anyway. My history professor does seem “disturbed” by my discomfort, and by that I mean he seems to feel bad for me, so at best I’m more of a wounded bird than a threat.
I wanted to ask about if there was a professors union but I thought it would be inappropriate so I held back from doing so. Even though my PoliSci professor seems saddened by the horrific Russophobia in Canada it doesn't matter since he does nothing to try to remedy it in his own classroom.
I know I have to keep my head down but it’s so hard. I’m desperate for some kind of connection and support, and when I see the explicit play forming and support for fucking neo-Nazis it hammers home just how alone I am here and it really hurts. I was hoping so bad for someone to say “hey, I agree, this isn’t good” but looks like that was the wrong call on my end. Being the only one who cares is really hard.
The political science professor who is part of the Ukraine club doesn't know about the OUN flag and the history professor had to look it up on Wikipedia :wtf:
These are the people that students are expected to learn from?? Who tf supports a war without even knowing who's fighting it?! Canadian education might just be shittier than the rest of the west when it comes to Ukraine.
Well I mean, you can't remove a man's ignorance if that's the thing which keeps his job here...
The Ukraine club isn’t even a club, it’s way more official which makes this situation so much worse. My history professor specializes in Britain history so it makes sense why he wouldn’t know but his responses to my other questions were disappointing.
I do wonder if my Political Science professor is aware of what truly sparked this war or if he seriously believes it’s all due to Putin’s ego… Canadian education, at least in my province, is ass.
I didn't respondv to your first post, but what is up with the picture of Fidel? I don't know what he has to do with Ukraine.
Someone else pointed this out too! I’d have approved of a Fidel display but we got stuck with this instead.
PolSci professor knows absolutely nothing about the subject they "teach" and claims to be "apolitical" while taking very strong political stances in favour of the status quo, while also knowing nothing about the political topics they support.
I really wish I could say I'm surprised, but this is pretty typical. Fuckers like this have the easiest, laziest jobs in the world.
When he told me he was a part of the Ukrainian “club” of the school it just made me more confused because as far as I know he’s not Ukrainian himself, and while thats not a problem, I am surprised he doesn’t know what the OUN flag is when he seems so involved in the war and Ukrainian affairs. He also claims to be very against war and violence yet he sees no problem in a display glorifying soldiers and war, when Ukrainians do it it’s fine I guess.
Ideologically he’s told me he’s an eclectic, but he definitely comes across as a Liberal to me. When China is talked about you can tell he has a huge bias against the CPC. North Korea is also a target in class and of course his personal beef with Putin too.
This semester has really proven to me what kind of institution this really is… hopefully I won’t be here for much longer.
He really sounds like every political science professor I've ever heard of. Smugly ignorant and refuses to even consider that there are more points of view than their own, but considers themselves to be an "open minded" person, because they will "listen" to what other people say before finding some excuse to dismiss them out of hand.
PolSci people are probably the most Ultra-turbo-lib I can think of. These are people who have pursued a degree in professional lib hand waving, I don't think there's any hope of them ever changing their minds. They will 100% support the status quo in all things and accuse you of being "ignorant" if you dare to suggest the status quo is bad in any meaningful way.