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Mark 10:17-25
The Rich Man
As he was setting out on a journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; You shall not defraud; Honor your father and mother.’ ” He said to him, “Teacher, I have kept all these since my youth.” Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said, “You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.” When he heard this, he was shocked and went away grieving, for he had many possessions. Then Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!” And the disciples were perplexed at these words. But Jesus said to them again, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
That was Palm Sunday lol. Fuckin murdered the guy later that week.
Nothing Christians hate more than people who are doing the exact same shit their supposed prophet did.
Almost like they're worshipping the cross rather than anyone who died on one.
100% and they try to change the word "mamon" to "money" in "the love of
moneymamon is the root of all evil."Which they further interpret as "well, i don't love money. I just love the things it gets. Therefore, its all good."
I mean, if Jesus meant money, he would have used the Hebrew word for money and wouldn't have switched to an aramaic word that means "wealth, over and above what you need to exist."
However, you can't reconcile its actual meaning with American style supply-side Jesus.
Another interesting thing is how the bible tries to blame the Rabbis for Jesus death, doing it via the Romans. If the Rabbis wanted Jesus dead, they would have killed him and they would have done so by stoning him to death.
The Romans almost exclusively used crucifixion only on pirates, slaves or insurrectionists. Last I checked, there were no reports of Jesus being a slave or a pirate.
Palm Sunday was seen as the start of a movement and the Romans conspired to kill him for it and nip it in the bud. The rest is spin. Presuming Jesus was real in the first place, of course.
I think I agree on the first part Mamon represents a personification of wealth/greed which a Priest might say is really just another way of saying a love of self (e.g. pride). A message in this parable is "to whom much is given much will be required". As well as the "a man cannot serve two masters" bit.
Jesus existed. He's perhaps the most documented pre-modern figure.
Romans crucified serious offenders. That includes the categories you provided as well as thieves, murderers etc
The Pharisees brought Christ to the Romans because they considered him a heretic and demanded his execution. Pontius Pilate found no fault in him and offered Barrabas instead. The Pharisees rejected Barrabas and Pilate, fearing rebellion, granted their wish and washed his hands of it all. While the Romans crucified Christ the Pharisees were his accusers.
This. The Pharisees were the 1% of their time and place. They had it all. Wealth, power, political clout. And only they were permitted to enter the Holy of Holies and lay eyes upon the Word of God. They prayed in public, gave public alms, claimed to be the most pious and righteous of all and preached a message about how they were the chosen ones and everyone else should serve them. Then, along comes this barefoot guy from across the Galilee who is believed to be born of a virgin, claiming to be the Son of God. They're all waiting for him to place crowns upon their heads and cement their position as God's Chosen. Then he goes and does the exact opposite. He preaches a message counter to their narrative, calls them out for their false piety, tells them God is pissed at them for their showy displays, and the masses are just eating it up. They couldn't let that stand!
Could you imagine someone, anyone, doing that today? In the US, many politicians and celebrities claim to love and serve God. They make huge displays of their holiness, and pray in public, and give to the poor in full display, and spin this narrative of being more virtuous than everyone else. Then someone comes along with a counter message. That man/woman/person would be dead within a week!
Oh, but what a week of joy it would be!
What we need to do here is find a way to liquify the camel's body and increase the diameter of the eye of the needle. Then it's really just a matter of patience.
Perhaps we can simply process the camel and spin it into string?
Once that’s over with we can use the same method to mass-produce Camel McNuggets.
You sonovabitch, I'm in!
A rope through the eye of a needle, I think they realised it was a mistranslation.
Edit: Biblical Greek "kámēlos" (camel) written in place of Biblical Greek "kámilos" (anchor rope/mooring cable). Neither are going to thread a needle, so I'm not sure what's bothering everybody.
It is an actual camel through the actual eye of a needle. The "rope" interpretation is a lie made in the past few hundred years to protect rich fucks.
A thick rope does not fit through a needle any more than a camel. If I'd said it was a mistranslation of "silk thread" or something, you might have a point, but nobody is trying to defend the rich here.
No, the lie was that the eye of the needle was the name of a gate that was only a little squeeze for a camel. That was around a thousand years later too. The rope was because the Greek word for camel back then was closer to the word for rope, but due to the euphemism being used in other Jewish texts, we knew they ment camel. A big rope also doesn't fit, but it's thematic. A camel isn't, but it's ridiculous, and that's the point. The rope isn't really thought to be intentional, but if someone claims it's a gate, it is, and I think we know the name of the italian merchant who made it up.
I think there was a common saying “it’d be easier for an elephant to pass through the eye of a needle” to describe something really difficult. Camel was substituted in regions where they had camels but not elephants. Jesus was memeing irl for his local audience.
did you not read the context? He said to enter heaven rich people must sell their riches. Its obvious he's saying you can't be rich and faithful.
That's obviously what it says. No one is saying anything counter to that. A rope doesn't fit through the eye of a needle and a camel doesn't fit through the small gate it may have referred to. It's all the same meaning. We're just talking about what the literal thing being said was. They all effectively have the same meaning.
It never reffered to a gate, that didn't exist at the same time. But camels do supposedly fit through said gate, if they get on their knees.
Of course all bullshit to help rich people feel like being wealthy wasn't a sin if they were "humble" about it.
It's easier to argue about something like translation than to think about what it is actually saying. Let alone try to apply it to yourself. Technically, if you live in the US, you're already "rich" comparatively. No one wants to give up what they have.
I don't need half the shit I have, and I need some shit I don't have. I'll gladly give up a lot of shit. Even mass produced clothing.
Okay but what if I'm, like, really good at exploiting child prison labor?
I can get to heaven then, right? Maybe if I have my child slave prisoners build me a big enough monument?
Child prison labour? You mean you're providing shelter for orphans and creating jobs for them too? You're practically a saint according to supply-side Jesus.
Heil (supply side) Jesus!
Everyone's up in arms because it doesn't change the meaning at all. The point is its fucking impossible
I mean, in the context of the passage it's pretty fucking clear that it isn't an easy thing to do. It doesn't matter if the saying was slightly off, the message is "give away all your possessions in order to follow Christ".
Yes, I'm not being combative. A rope doesn't fit through a needle either.
No, it's right there in the text. "Sell", not "give". You can be rich, you just can't have stuff.
Checkmate camels
.....
Possibly also "the eye of a needle" meant a gate in Jerusalem. Regardless, it doesn't mean what people think it means when they first hear it. Still has the same message, just less stupid.
No, it doesn't. This is a bullshit lie spread by rich fucks. The words are meant literally - the animal camel through the tiny eye of an actual needle.
Not my theory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_a_needle
https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,5753,-25583,00.html
It has the same meaning. It was a small gate that a camel couldn't fit through. It's just that it may not have meant a literally eye of a needle, just like it may not have meant a literal camel in the previous explanation.
Are you illiterate? At which point did I say you came up with it? You're spreading a lie, pure and simple
Down voting me for discussing something that is brought up frequently is implying a disagreement with me. I said it's not my theory because you don't have a disagreement with me. It's a piece of trivia people may like to know. It also isn't some conspiracy to lie about it. It doesn't change the meaning. It's just people guessing as to what was meant.
In thousands of years if we no longer have trains, people are going to have to guess about what sidetracked meant. Some people may come to totally different conclusions. Discussing alternative interpretations isn't bad, especially when no one is arguing with the underlying meaning. Everyone know what was meant and I've never seen an argument against it. It's just some pieces of trivia that it may have been an idiom (that had the same meaning) that was used at the time.
But I just want to be mad and insult someone!
This myth has been pretty thoroughly busted, as has most every other attempt by rich pricks in the last couple thousand years to soften or undermine Jesus' use of hyperbole.
That does not say it's busted at all. It only says the citation is often wrong. However, they hyperbole is still identical no matter the translation. Regardless of what the literal translation should be, it says a rich man can't enter heaven. I don't know how discussing the literal translation could possibly be used to soften that because it's pretty clear. I think some people just want a conspiracy where there isn't one. Literally no one is arguing it doesn't mean rich men can't enter heaven.
Yes, people are arguing it doesn't mean rich men can't enter heaven. People have been coming up with various interpretations of that Bible passage for that explicit purpose ever since Jesus said it - a couple thousand years - for which we have written records.
The "eye of a needle is a gate in Jerusalem" interpretation was dug up from 11th century writings by televangelists who - believe it or not - used it to argue that you could, in fact, fit a camel through it with great effort.
Yes, people are arguing it doesn't mean rich men can't enter heaven.
Who is? I've never seen that. I don't believe that at all. It's pretty clear what was meant, and this isn't the only place it's said.
There weren't TVs in the 11th century, so no televangelists. I know what you mean by this, but that's the problem. Language is weird. Terms come and go, and someone from the 11th century wouldn't know what that means, just as we don't know exactly what was said by people who wrote the Bible.
I don't even believe Jesus was a real person. We really don't have much evidence for that. I sure as hell don't trust the translation of the King James Bible, which isn't even the original Hebrew, as to what was said exactly. The meaning is cool, and there's no arguing what it means, but it could be referring to anything, and idioms come and go and we can only guess what they are.
There weren't TVs in the 11th century, so no televangelists. I know what you mean by this, but that's the problem. Language is weird. Terms come and go, and someone from the 11th century wouldn't know what that means, just as we don't know exactly what was said by people who wrote the Bible.
You actually didn't know what they meant by this. They were saying that a televangelist, in the age of television, dug up this interpretation from the 11th century to argue, in the age of television, that the lesson was that it was challenging for the rich to get into heaven but not impossible.
But it does serve the more fundamental point that language is complicated and prone to misinterpretation. And that people will voice confidently incorrect opinions based their misunderstanding.
There's nothing that irritates me more than when people misinterpret me not because of vague language, but due to poor reading comprehension. Except perhaps when people admire TV villains because of poor media literacy.
Televangelists from modern times dug up writings from the 11th century to support their grift. Language can be hard but reading carefully helps.
why say it after telling a man to sell his possessions and give it to the poor. Jesus literally telling rich people to stop being rich to go to heaven and you think he's talking about a gate?
Yeah, it was apparently a small gate, and possibly a common saying. We have all kinds of weird idioms, like if you start talking about something off-topic you're "getting sidetracked." Why would you be talking about a train?
I didn't come up with this. It's a really old explanation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_a_needle
https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,5753,-25583,00.html
From the article you linked:
The "Eye of the Needle" has been claimed to be a gate in Jerusalem, which opened after the main gate was closed at night. A camel could not pass through the smaller gate unless it was stooped and had its baggage removed. The story has been put forth since at least the 11th century and possibly as far back as the 9th century. However, there is no widely accepted evidence for the existence of such a gate.
It seems so unlikely that this is the case. Why would anyone write a metaphor so convoluted about a gate? It's an attempt to weasel out of the fact that Jesus outright tells rich people to give away all their shit.
It still means that exact same thing. We use weird idioms all the time that make no sense why we'd talk about them that way. Why do we use sidetrack for a tangent when that's a term used for trains? We do we call "crazy" people "coocoo", as in a type of bird? Idioms are strange things.
It's clear what Jesus meant (assuming he said this at all, but I'm not convinced he's even real), whatever it is that may have been being discussed. No one is arguing that. It doesn't matter if camel meant rope, whether the eye of the needle was a gate, or if that translation we read in the king James Bible is accurate (it isn't). It all says the same thing.
It doesn't necessarily mean the same thing. The camel/gate (unfounded) interpretation has been stretched to note that a camel COULD fit through the gate on its knees, therefore it's a metaphor about being on your knees (pray) if you are wealthy and you can go through the gate, i.e., you can be rich if you are pious.
Which... brings us full circle to the Pharisees. The good news is, we can all be Jesus, right now and start finding these people in person and calling them out.