[db0] Reddit is a dead site running
[db0] Reddit is a dead site running
Yesterday I read the excellent article by Cory Doctorow: Let the Platforms Burn and this particular anecdote The thing is, network effects are a double-edged sword. People join a service to be with the people they care about. But when the people they care about start to leave, everyone rushes for th...
The link contains db0's views on the ongoing state of Reddit, and I think that it's worth sharing here - both to document a piece of opinion, and as food for thought. The main points are:
- a comparison between the current state of Reddit vs. Myspace near collapse;
- the illusion that everything is fine based on "raw" numbers like engagement;
- that Reddit was never a "good" site, but it had two positive points (open API and hands-off approach to communities), destroyed by the current events;
- the ongoing progression of the Fediverse as alternative to Reddit;
- the change in quality in both the content and the behaviour of the people still there.
The text mentions an article from Cory Doctorow. I've copied it to a pastebin, in case someone can't access it.
EDIT: I hope that the author doesn't mind, but I'll copy the contents of the article inside the spoilers below. Hopefully for mobile users it'll be a bit more accessible.
Reddit is a dead site running
from July 10, 2023
Yesterday I read the excellent article by Cory Doctorow: Let the Platforms Burn and this particular anecdote
"The thing is, network effects are a double-edged sword. People join a service to be with the people they care about. But when the people they care about start to leave, everyone rushes for the exits. Here’s danah boyd, describing the last days of Myspace:
If a central node in a network disappeared and went somewhere else (like from MySpace to Facebook), that person could pull some portion of their connections with them to a new site. However, if the accounts on the site that drew emotional intensity stopped doing so, people stopped engaging as much. Watching Friendster come undone, I started to think that the fading of emotionally sticky nodes was even more problematic than the disappearance of segments of the graph.
With MySpace, I was trying to identify the point where I thought the site was going to unravel. When I started seeing the disappearance of emotionally sticky nodes, I reached out to members of the MySpace team to share my concerns and they told me that their numbers looked fine. Active uniques were high, the amount of time people spent on the site was continuing to grow, and new accounts were being created at a rate faster than accounts were being closed. I shook my head; I didn’t think that was enough. A few months later, the site started to unravel.
This is exactly what is happening to Reddit currently. The most passionate contributors, the most tech-literate users, and the integrators who make all the free tools in the ecosystem around reddit which makes that service much more valuable have left and will never look back.
From the dashboards of u/spez however, things might looks great. Better even! As the drama around their decision making certainly caused a lot more posts and interactions, and the loss of the 3rd party apps drove at least a few users to the official applications.
But this is an illusion. Like MySpace before them, the metric might look good, but the soul of the site has been lost. It’s not easy to explain but since I’ve started using Lemmy full-time, I’ve seen the improvement in engagement and quality in real time. half a month ago, posts could barely pass 2 digits, now they regularly break 3 and sometimes 4 digits. And the quality of the discussions is a pleasure to go through.
I said it before, but reddit was never a particularly good site. Their saving grace was the openness of their API and their hands-off approach to communities. The two things they just destroyed. It’s those 3rd party tools and communities that made reddit like it is. As as the ecosystem around reddit sputters and dies, the one around the Threadiverse is progressing in an astonishing rate.
Not only are the integrators coming from reddit aware what kind of bots and tools are going to be very useful, but a lot of those tools are shut off from reddit and switched to the lemmy API instead, explicitly cannibalizing the quality of the reddit experience. And due to the completely open API of the Threadiverse, those tools now get access to unparalleled access and power.
Sure if you visit reddit currently, you’ll see people talking and voting, but as someone who’s been there from the start, the quality has fallen off a hill and is reaching terminal velocity. But it feels like one’s still flying!
Not just the quality of the posts where only the most superficial meme stuff can rise to the top, not just the quality of the discussion, but even mere vibe of the discussions is just lost.
There’s now significant bitterness and hostility, especially as the mods who were responsible for maintaining the quality, have gone or are being hands off or just don’t have the tools needed to keep up. I’ve heard from multiple people who are leaving even while they were not originally planning to, because the people left over in reddit are just so toxic.
This is a very vicious cycle which will accelerate the demise of that site even further.
A house fire can go from a spark to a raging inferno in less than a minute. The flames consuming reddit are just now climbing up the curtains and it still appears manageable, but it’s already too late. Reddit has reached terminal enshittification and the only thing left for it to do, is die.
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First of all, I cannot speak for the current state of Reddit myself because I literally never go there anymore.
I’ve been here for 5 days, and from my experience is this platform has gained a lot of traction even in that short timeframe. Hopefully it just doesn’t level off and then die suddenly.
Most importantly though, this article hit on the nose of what my opinion is on what made Reddit great… great 3rd party platforms (I loved Apollo) and the moderation/customization of its subreddits. Everything was so hands off. Both of those are gone now. Reddit killed off the very things that made it unique and so good.
In my 7 years on Reddit, I’d say over the last two-ish years we have slowly been seeing that leave. So many subs got shut down, and some definitely were questionable at best, but in it, Reddit organic feel and freedom. At first it was only the worst of the worst subs, but slowly more and more left. Not to mention moderation was being done by a shrinking number of people and it seemed the echo chamber in each individual sub got worse.
Some changes were directly administration’s fault, others indirect to varying degrees.
I’d argue Reddit has slowly been killing itself for awhile now, it’s just that the latest changes are the most abrupt, direct, and significant.
I've been checking Reddit once in a while. Mostly to archive a few things here and there, as people mention them in this sub. I feel like db0 is spot on, when talking about how the place is now bitter and hostile (it was already this way, but even more now). The current events were "just enough" to get rid of any sort of cooperativeness that you'd feel on the site before.
How is emotional stickiness measured? I feel like the article is hitting on something I've noticed about reddit ever since July 1st, but it's hard for me to explain or support this subconscious observation that the quality content has slowed dramatically.
Reposting had always been a thing but it feels like the ratio of reposts to quality has increased, and the scroll of new posts on the front page or /r/all has slowed considerably. I have no way to back that up other than subjective experience though.
I wish that I knew a way to measure it; because I'm also feeling it, as I'm checking r/all for comparison right now, but it's damn hard to explain specifically what is wrong.
Perhaps votes could be used to approximate this? At the end of the day, "upvote" = "I want this to be more visible". If people feel less emotionally connected to the platform, odds are that they're upvoting less on things. There's a lot of noise in doing it this way, but at least it gives us some metric to refer to.
Yeah, I haven't been around here too long either, but it feels like something interesting is happening for sure. There's tons of memes, but there's definitely also some interesting non-meme content. It's shaping up to be a replacement for the core of what made Reddit work, hopefully while learning what not to do along the way. I know of at least 1-2 new apps on the way from seasoned 3rd party Reddit devs. Sync (!syncforlemmy@lemmy.world) will likely become my app of choice when it's available.
The biggest issue I'm seeing right now is the amount of data we're asking server admins to store as far as long-term sustainability. In a Lemmy Support community, I saw one admin saying their 1k-user instance was gobbling up an extra GB of disk space daily. I wonder if the devs could overhaul the content distribution system to reduce the number of copies of data stored? Maybe clusters where each cluster is a "core federation" inner circle that shares/mirrors content with each other (basically a pact to distribute seeding the network), then more loosely federated servers that are allowed to view/share data without fully mirroring all relevant content.
So many subs got shut down, and some definitely were questionable at best, but in it, Reddit organic feel and freedom
While I agree that deplatforming should be very cautiously and judiciously approached, I will say that there is some content that should be blocked for the sake of preservation of tolerance. I don't care whether the topic of discussion is legal, I care if it's ethical. Hate speech has, and does, encourage real violence against innocent parties. When the goal post keeps moving for the sake of attracting investors or silence activism, rather than focusing solely on user experience, we start to see unreasonable restrictions on free communication. With federation and open source software, there's no way to stop neonazis from setting up their own network, provided DNS is willing to point to them, but that doesn't mean we should assist in growing their ideology/platform.
Not to mention moderation was being done by a shrinking number of people and it seemed the echo chamber in each individual sub got worse.
I wonder if this might be a reflection on increasingly difficult times for many people as cost of living exceeds income? Moderation takes real work. It's unpaid and generally quite thankless. If would-be mods are bogged down with real-world problems, they'll have less energy to devote to volunteering.
Good points and I agree with all of them. I’ll also add that when Reddit started shutting down some subs, it was a good thing, as they started with the worst of the worst. My point is just that’s when it started, and it just went too far from there. Now there definitely seems to be too heavy of a hand.
Expanding on that, that all evolved to a point where Reddit is telling moderators how to moderate, and if they fail to comply, they will force you out and replace you with someone who will moderate exactly how they want. At this point, besides niche smaller subs, there is very little that is organic on that site.
The subs used to feel like they each belonged to their creators and/or moderators. To me that is what made Reddit great and unique in so many ways, it’s why there was something for everybody. The site could perfectly fit the content to anyone. That’s pretty much dead now.
There is certainly a change in character over there. I think we’re at the tail end of long, gradual decline. I’m not sure where along the way we dropped off - probably some proverbial frog boiling going on. But undoubtedly the quality of discourse in say, 2010-2015 was significantly better than today.
That's a decent point I would say. I would say even pre 2010 was better, but I was still lurking at that point. It took me years to feel comfortable enough to create an account, probably because most posts were tech stuff that I didn't understand enough to have a valuable opinion.
Sometime around 2016 it became really bad. Like really, really bad. I don't think the election was the reason for it, but all those bots certainly didn't help. Politics would literally creep into every comment section, even pics of fluffy kittens. The political bots seemed to get quieter after ~2018, but the vitriol, aggressive comments and people feeling the need to dunk on each other only seemed to get worse and worse.
There was a distinct point when I realized the site had changed when I made a reply to add some additional information to a commentors point and they immediately thought of it as a direct personal attack against themselves, not someone just furthering discussion.
That is actually a perfect way to phrase it - commenters taking everything as a personal attack. Add a personal opinion or extra context? I know, quit implying I’m stupid. Add a respectful disagreement? Fuck you, you’re wrong, I’m right. It really has gotten to the point where replying to anything is basically signing yourself up for a mini flame war.