Why do people still recommend Thinkpads for Linux when there are Linux-oriented manufacturers now?
Why do people still recommend Thinkpads for Linux when there are Linux-oriented manufacturers now?
I've noticed in the Linux community whenever someone asks for a recommendation on a laptop that runs Linux the answer is always "Get a Thinkpad" yet Lenovo doesn't seem to be a big Linux contributor or ally. There's also at least six Linux/FOSS-oriented computer manufacturers now:
So what gives? Why the love for a primarily Windows-oriented laptop when there are better alternatives?
It comes down to price. You can buy used ThinkPads and replacement parts for them quite cheap a lot of the time.
It's been a while since I've looked at devices from places like System 76 but if I recall correctly they are still over a thousand dollars when a used ThinkPad T440P for example can be found for around two hundred dollars.
Because of better accessibility. How so?
Because not everyone has the money to afford these new and expensive laptops designed for a niche market. They are still enthusiast-grade products, the prices speak for themselves.
Because not everyone comes from Europe / the US, so it's not easy to find these with affordable shipping.
Because these laptops are only normally offered new, which, for responsible and personal ownership, is excessive. There are thousands of used hardware lying around, why not put some life back into them instead?
It comes down to price, availability and ethical concerns. Unless money doesn't mean anything to you, why do you need a $1000 laptop when someone wants a device for higher education or personal casual use? The world doesn't need more rampant marketing of niche, hyped-up tech. While a fully-FOSS system may be the ideal machine for every Linux enthusiast, we live in a material world with finite resources and chasing after some unicorn laptop is unsustainable.
They can be found cheap as shit. I got a great t480 for less than $150 and another $50 I upgraded my RAM and battery. It's a really nice laptop and only cost me a couple hundred.
In the US a lot of business use them. It's not uncommon to see a pallet of "old" ThinkPads at the swapmeet selling for less than $200. We're talking x1 Carbons. These machines have upgradable SSDs, Wifi, and battery. For less than $300 you can get a BEAST of a machine that runs Linux very very well.
Cost.
Older Thinkpads remain extremely capable and (crucially) highly repairable. The T series in particular is also better built (read: more solid chassis) than many others, including some on this list.
It doesn't make a lot of sense to support these alternatives given the absolute shock difference in cost. $300 bucks for a used T series gets you a lot from a customizability, repairability, and reliability standpoint.
I literally can not buy a single one of these products you mentioned in my country.
I can easily buy a Thinkpad.
Niche companies are extremely restricted when it comes to sales and customer support. Also, they're computers, there's nothing that makes them "Linux ready" other than not using weird components with driver issues.
First of all I wouldn't use a pre-installed OS (I would always wipe and install my own for security reasons).
Secondly: Thinkpads (at least when I bought mine, last year) let you buy them without an OS and don't charge you for it.
Thirdly: the linked manufacturers above tend to be either US-centric and/or more expensive than Thinkpads.
Price. You can find second hand Thinkpad's whereas new laptops are very expensive.
Avoid purism at all costs. Watch Louis Rossman video on Purism mobile.
Secret sauce: it's much easier to get an employer on board with buying you a Thinkpad as part of a bulk order than it is to get them to spring for any of these more obscure models as a one-off.
I usually grab a 3-4 year old Thinkpad every year or so for anywhere from free to 300 bucks. I pick them up from old corporate liquidation lots. Usually grab one that is a little dirty or beat up and then just clean it up and install my own SSD and upgrade ram from my stockpile.
I like some of the others on that list, but with how cheaply and easily I can get a Thinkpad, I just can't be bothered to spend more. I use my laptop mainly for code, and I do a lot of low-level programming so performance is usually way more than enough. The programs I write are extremely small and very efficient. Any processor from the last 20+ years will run what I am usually working on.
When I want to spend big bucks on a computer, I put that money towards my desktop where I do more gaming and some digital artwork.
For me it is mostly the price. I don't need much and a Seconds Hand ThinkPad ist enough for my needs and much less expensive than buying a New Laptop.
None of them really match the ThinkPad reliability, cost effectiveness and after sales experience.
I have no dog in this fight, but of the brands mentioned, I’ve heard of 1, and I consider myself fairly techy. Lenovo is a brand name that most people are going to recognize and implicitly trust (whether they should or not)
Thinkpads tend to have excellent build quality, solid firmware and well thought out design. Price to performance on second-hand models is always outstanding and their popularity ensures hardware compatibility with Linux.
Of the brands you named, I just don't trust the hardware. Tuxedo computers for example uses Tongfang white-label computers that they just slap their logo on. Quality control isn't as thorough as Lenovo's, firmware is sketchy, TDP tends to be all over the place and keyboard quality doesn't come close.
Thinkpads also have-- and I can't stress the importance of this enough-- a nipple. I don't really use it, but if you try to take it away from me I'll bite you.
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Refurbished ThinkPads are awesome!
- Availability - ThinkPads are very popular in corporate environments and are generally replaced every 2-3 years. Although mostly Intel CPUs, there is a wide variety CPU+GPU available from lightweight to high performance.
- Tough + well built + last forever
- Easy to upgrade/repair. They're very user-accessible and its simple to upgrade RAM or SSD/M.2 drives. Plus, because they are so popular in the corporate environment, replacement parts (from batteries to WiFi+Bluetooth chipsets to trckpads) are very available and cheap.
- Well supported in most (if not all) linux distros. Graphics just work, trackpads just work, WiFi just works.
- Cheap.
Sent from my ThinkPad T580 (with both an internal and removable battery, I get 10+ hours of battery life)
Availability for me, none of those brands are available in my country.
I'd say lack of marketing and higher price tags. Money / Performance ratio is also better with a decent Thinkpad.
Some of these options can't (or not without high markups) be bought and shipped to Canada.
Because it use common hardware and bought "en masse" by enterprises; they tend to be more supported with FOSS than other options.
I've been happy with my used T480 so far.
Most of these are pretty expensive. I got a used Thinkpad for less than 200 bucks, and it works great for the price and my use case.
Because I bought a Linux laptop from one of those vendors. It came with QubesOS but ran awful for it. I tried to debug but it fucking broke after 4 days.
That was 6 months ago and I'm still waiting for them to refund me after I sent back the broken device.
Never again. Thinkpad has my money for life if they keep making durable hardware.
I bought a Framework once. The build quality was better than System76, but not great. However, Framework is not a Linux laptop. They designed it for Windows and only afterwards they were surprised to find that people wanted it for Linux.
A lot of Linux laptops don't have HiDPI displays because they're not really compatible.
Example Framework: https://community.frame.work/t/tracking-state-of-hidpi-on-linux/8301
For years people have been trying to work around Framework's poor display choice. And they're still trying.
If you have a regular DPI display, you get to avoid a whole class of bugs and issues.
If you wanna have a good time with Linux, you need some mechanical sympathy.
Btw, tbh, brb, I've had good success with the Dell XPS 13 and the Lenovo X1 Carbon. System76 build quality was meh.
Not everyone can spend +1000 dollars on a computer.
I'd recommend against any lenovo laptop after the T580 and T490. My company switched to dell since the lenovo laptops had so many failures and weird issues that we'd have to keep an extra one in stock for every 10 in use.
But if the older stuff suits your needs, go for it. Lenovo used to make great laptops.
Same reason most people recommend gettinf a Honda/Toyota when asked for a general recommendation for a car. If you need to ask the question, then your needs are probably not that specialized. So something generally reliable, widely accessible, and good value would be appropriate. Lenovo still tends to fit that description.
I hope nobody recommends Thinkpads manufactured after 2020. They're pure garbage in so many ways, that there's no point to list them all.
They are cheap and durable, and they work with most major Linux distros without much headache.
I have a spec'd out S76 Lemur, which is a great laptop for throwing in a backpack as a daily driver, and really packs a punch with a small footprint.
But I also have a couple ThinkPads that cost less than $100 to replace that I use for doing experiments in the field where a laptop is more likely to get damaged. No need to needlessly drag thousands of extra dollars in kit out into a mountain trail to do radio experiments. For that kind of work, these old systems have more than enough resources, and if I fall in a stream, or get caught in rain, the worst I have to do is replace the system for $80 refurbished on Amazon.
Of course, I've never actually had any issues requiring replacement, but ThinkPads are really hard to break. I'm not as convinced about the Lemur's durability, and would rather take fewer risks with it.
Used thinkpads especially the older ones (t480 and older) have a ton of extra parts floating around, and you can get them cheap. I built a t480 with 8th gen i7 from parts for around $170 over a year ago, it has been a great experience. I upgraded the trackpad and keyboard and plan to upgrade the screen, cooling, and battery next.
I don't like thinkpads anymore. They used to be great but Lenovo decided to kill off their best feature - the keyboards.
My fingers actually hurt when typing on a ThinkPad keyboard now. They are so shit.
I think people are nostalgic and they remember what the brand used to be. But I'm not impressed by them anymore. They keep scoring top marks at notebookcheck reviews however, but every new ThinkPad has disappointed me with bad screen or bad looks or feel.
Price, keyboard and build quaility are my main reasons for buying a Thinkpad 3 years ago.
They are available for a good price second hand and their keyboard is the best laptop keyboard I've tried. Most of those Linux manufacturers use Clevo designs and thus the keyboard isn't amazing. Even if they design a laptop themselves it's difficult to nail the keayboard.
My next laptop will probably be from framework. But that depends whether I'm willing too spend as much and the other options available. And framework doesn't even sell laptops with Linux preinstalled.
I agree with a bunch of the comments here but wanted to add that there's a decades-long legacy of good FOSS/Linux support on Thinkpads. Before any of these companies existed, Linux was running pretty reliably on Thinkpads.
I do like the newer options with these newer manufacturers, but I won't be getting rid of my Thinkpads any time soon. I'm running a Framework now too.
Cost? Framework is not really "Linux oriented".
Those are all expensive, used Thinkpad is below the ground-dirt cheap...$150?!
My Thinkpad Ultrabook was insanely cheap even with a docking station. I do donate to Pop OS once a year though as a thanks for their work and I recommend the same. It's like $12 a year on their site and they do great work.
Trying to get one of their laptops but thats in short order for me, for now.
Adding on:
- lack of quick shipping
- proxied payments like PayPal or apple gpay
- some use laptop kits that are supposedly cheap
- hardware different from software if it breaks and there's no store or big company to ask for a refund from, you'll be pissed
- some of the hardware reviews about bugs and their handling of them are damning
Computers are more or less the sum of their parts.
For the longest time, and even now I think, the "Linux laptop" companies mostly sold re-branded quasi-generic laptops from Chinese manufacturers and focused on the software aspect to ensure compatibility. This meant that a lot of aspects were cheapened out on. The chassis, trackpad, keyboard, display, fit and finish in general were second class. Sure it was a machine that ran Linux, but most computers do that pretty well.
Laptop shopping is already fraught with pain and hazards. How do you know you're getting something that wont break down? Add the "vote with your wallet" premium price on these boutique Linux laptops, and they don't seem that appealing.
Thinkpads on the other hand have a huge community of nerds documenting compatibility. They have enterprise customers dumping pallets of used machines into the used market every year, and have far better parts accessibility than the quasi-generic machine.
Then there's the trackpoint, you never need to leave the home row. You're not victim to subpar trackpads(Every non-mac trackpad is subpar, sorry, I don't make the rules, they suck absolutely.)
I've had my X1 Carbon 4th gen since new in 2016. Even if I can't upgrade it, 7 years on its still nearly perfect. I got an Dell XPS 15 from work ~5 years ago and I've gone through two batteries, finishes are wearing off, the hinge is wonky, and IT HAS NO TRACK POINT.
15 years ago I would have been surprised to hear that Thinkpads are cheap laptops !
The second hand market for Lenovo laptops is usually pretty good. Lots of corporations have hardware cycles and recycle the things in huge waves. I've picked up an X230 and X270 for fractions of what they were worth new. Accessories too.
Because most of these brands offer high-end laptops, the secondhand market is small and the new ones vastly exceed the needs of a lot of users.
Most people just browse the web, stream media, use productivity apps…these things don’t need much horsepower. The majority of people don’t need to run AAA games or graphics/video editing on their laptop.
Because of this, there is a great market for secondhand business laptops, and tons of great deals there. And of the big business brands (HP, Dell, and Lenovo), Lenovo tends to have the most compatible hardware (while also usually being very easily serviceable or upgraded).
I bought a Lenovo T470s with charger and a decent battery at a flea market on Father’s Day for $100 USD and he had a stack of them. Ordered some more memory and a bigger NVMe for $70, and now I have a very useful, practical, everyday laptop for less than $200, and it dual-boots a licensed Windows 10.
Since the regular points have already been covered by other people, I'll add one thing that I like:
Two batteries. The external one is drained first, and it can be replaced while the laptop is running, because there's an internal battery. I have 24Wh internal, a 16Wh external (it's old, originallly it was 24Wh) and 72Wh external, in a 12 inch laptop (achievable because 72Wh battery sticks out and acts like a stand), giving me more battery life than anything else without an external power bank.
And I got mine for dirt cheap.
System76 and other Linux-oriented hardware "manufacturers" basically take Clevo laptops and rebadge and mark them up. I got one from System76 and have been less than impressed with it considering what they charged for it. The screen is awful (purple tint to it) and the hardware didn't fully work with any distro for a while. I wished I'd just bought a refurbished Thinkpad.
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cheap (companies sell off their stocks when upgrading so you get a few years old business laptop for a fraction of the price)
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cheap and plentiful parts
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popular models are usually easy to upgrade and repair
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it's built so coked up business sharks can throw it across the office
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best laptop keyboards
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trackpoint and physical mouse buttons
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great Linux support
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Thinkpads are cheap and accessible basically everywhere. They are business-grade devices and you can get one when folks retire their machines. A lot of places practically give them away. They were just gonna get thrown out anyways.
Framework is dumb expensive - a 16 even skimping out on RAM/HDDs comes out to over 3k CAD, and that's for a disassembled kit -- pre-built with full components comes out to easily over 3.5k, which is like a MacBook price for the promise of upgradability down the line.
System76 are rebranded shitty components from Chinese manufacturers. They're not better for Linux than any general consumer laptop, and their entire position is basically branding regarding freedom and 1776. Ironic that a company so deeply American in nature basically just resells garbage from China.
I've never met a Thinkpad that didn't like Linux :)
I've gotten a lenovo legion 5 for something around 1600$, with a 3070 rtx on it. Before that I had another legion as well, with 2060. I've gotten intel both times, my friend got the amd one. Why? They are a bit cheaper than the competition and I don't really understand why asus version of essentially the same hardware costs more. Why not a linux oriented company instead of lenovo? Well linux isn't as out of reach as it was 10 or even 5 years ago. Almost every driver you need is available even if you do a clean arch install out of the box. So why get a device that you can't easily sell later on, won't get god warranty services overseas and might be hard to repair in a pinch?
All this to say, get whatever you like. I think even on a macbook you can get a perfectly fine linux setup. I hate it when people assume linux needs to run on something specific and is out of reach. Get what you like at whatever price range you want, you'd be hard pressed to run into an issue installing and using linux on it.
I've gamed, developed web and android apps, patched kernel on asus rog series, lenovo legion series, some random msi model and a base configuration acer model. Almost zero problems.
Ease of availability of third party repair/replace parts, and due to economies of scale, them being cheaper as well. Also I know that Lenovo will officially provide me the parts easily even 6-7 years down the line, no matter if I am a business or home/personal owner of a ThinkPad. The only complaints I am seeing are the newest fingerprint readers on selected models like Yoga being less compatible, other than that everything is as standard on Linux as it gets.
I love my Thinkpad.
Lots of Linux devs love their Thinkpads.
The result is that Thinkpads are very well supported. They’re also generally very well made so I hope to use it for a decade.
I bought a Lenovo last year to install Linux on. I've never heard of most of those, but I have been keeping an eye on System 76 for years and researched their offerings.
I don't recall everything that made me go with the Lenovo, but after my last (Dell) laptop started developing issues that appeared to be related to it flexing, I wanted something with a stronger case, and System 76's laptops appear to have plastic cases. I help run a trade show-type thing, and I sometimes walk around with the laptop, and I will occasionally balance it with one hand, while entering info with the other. I think the case started flexing, and the touchpad (I'm guessing) started giving spurious inputs, causing all kinds of headaches last year. So I wanted something with a solid case like my old aluminum body Macbook Pro had.
I recognize this is limited requirement, most people aren't going to have this issue.
for another (other than Tuxedo) EU based solution: https://slimbook.es/en/
(They are at Valencia, Spain).
But I have no about idea its quality as I have never tried one.I bought a System76 Pangolin 11, then replaced it with a ThinkPad X13 within a few months because the battery life was trash. Total workhorse but it would die on me in meetings if I was sharing my screen.
I have a tuxedo. I love it. But...
- it supports just its own version of linux (TuxedoOS, based on KDE) and Ubuntu. I use Majaro and I have to tweak it the same way as I would do it with any other non-linux computer.
- I had a problem with sound and needed to send the computer to germany so they were able to check at it and fix it (replacing the mother board). Client service is good, but I live at 1w distance of germany (france)... what happens with people living far away?
- Is certainly good... but not cheap :)
For people starting with Linux I am more comfortable to recommend them second hand/used laptops. And Thinkpads are prime examples for repairability and upgradability so you find a loot more Thinkpads that go for cheaper.
Besides that. My next Laptop is either gonna be a framework or something from Tuxedo.
PS: I know that newer Thinkpads lack in repairability. I have a X1 Carbon with soldered-on RAM... Suffice to say I wouldn't buy that again...
For me it's Dell, when I bought my (used) Latitude E5470 there was even Ubuntu running officially on it IIRC at the time. I like the small Dell because there's ton of them 3+ years old, parts available everywhere, they are pretty solid and made for corporate world, they are no toy like Asus. A $1500 model can be had for like $200-300 after a couple of years. I installed MX Linux on it, everything works perfectly without touching or configuring anything.
For instance now you can find a nice E7480 for 200-300$, with Core I7, 8GB or 16GB RAM, SSD, 1080p, NFC, fingerprint, USB-PD dock compatible, etc.
those manufacturer either have to charge thouthands, or use the cheapest possible hardware they can find to be interesting compared to the thinkpads of old, which can take a punch or two and get replacement parts
The X1 Carbon series is popular with Linux kernel devs, so it's had a lot of TLC. It makes a big difference for some stuff like sleeping. My Thinkpads handled sleeping really well, and I could expect to leave it sitting for at least a week and come back to somewhat low battery. My Framework laptops, as nice as they are otherwise, will drain the battery during sleep in 24h, no matter what I've tried. The situation is apparently better on the newer-gen Framework laptops, and IMO Framework's open nature will lead to a similar situation to Thinkpads, but it's not quite there yet.
Apart from sleep, I've heard complaints about the manufacturing quality of some of the other options, but haven't used them myself so can't verify. Might be why some people recommend the Thinkpads, though. I do really like the quality of the Framework, and I'd recommend people take a look at them over Thinkpads now, unless they care about sleep battery usage.
To chime in with some of the other answers, price also makes a difference. Thinkpads have been around long enough that there's a nice large used market. I got a rock-solid Thinkpad T480 for a few hundred dollars from some dude on Craigslist. My Framework is higher-specced and was paid for by my work, but it still starts out ~$800. I think it'll just take time before other manufacturers have a similar situation.
I'd guess build quality is a big factor for most of those recommenders. I like Lenovo, even though other computers have better specs, because Lenovo's are tough and reasonably priced.
Some of these dont really ship worldwide. Not all of them offer a good bang for the buck in terms of hardware specs, and big companies sometimes offer more options (system76 traditionally didnt offer screens over FHD, most laptops are only 14"....).
People will say many things. But at the end of the day, it’s the keyboard. I honestly cannot think of a company that does keyboards better than Lenovo (formerly IBM).
Had Tuxedo experience: 3/5 at most Had ThinkPad experience: 4/5 at least
Entroware is another you could add to the list. I had a good experience buying from them. They do the usual Clevo OEM things.
Framework has some quality problems, not everyone is a fan of the keyboard, and it's relatively expensive.
Tuxedo is quite good, but they often use stock Clevo models and customize them, so they might be cheaper and not that well designed than one by a "proper brand".
Not sure about the rest.
There's very little alternative if you want a ThinkPad style keyboard and track pad/trackpoint for the price of a used or older ThinkPad.
Do any of these have:
- As nice a keyboard, that I don't have to worry about spilling a cup of coffee on.
- Track point or similar.
- Ability to survive a fall down a flight of stairs.
- 4:3 or 16:10 aspect ratio.
- Ports.
While being built with repairability in mind?
I day dream about stuffing the guts of a modern laptop inside with a USB hub and an enormous battery, but that's a huge undertaking.
Price, used thinkpads are cheap. I know I can get parts basically anywhere too.
One factor is that laptops need a little more design work to build out main boards and validate relative to a desktop, especially considering that you optimizing for power draw and that very little of the design is socketed. As a result a good chunk of the Linux laptop market uses OEM provided designs and then tailors their software around it. Last I heard system76 was working to bring that design work in house.
Also Vant and Slimbook from Spain. I own a PC from Vant and I'm happy with it but I would think twice before buying a laptop for 1.5k when I can just get a used lenovo for half that price and use it for next 10 years.
The first machine I ever installed with a distro was an MSI Ultrabook and Linux, out of the box, visibly improved the overall performance of the machine, with no need for benchmarking. After tweaking and fine tunning, it only improved.
After that came a long series of Asus, a few HP, one or two Dell. Always flawless installs, out of the box. The only exception I can remember of was a very specific HP model where the modem had to be manually installed.
Having a hand full of companies designing and building for linux feels like being part of an exclusive, Apple-like club; the prices are high, the choice limited.
We should be pressing the industry to recognize the linux ecosystem for what it is: a stable OS, with an ever growing user base with money to spend that want quality support for the equipments they buy.
I have some preferences in hardware (Vendors are still riding the 4k-in-laptop-size bandwagon) and Thinkpad has good customizability.
Just looked into Malibal, they have no less than WQHD currently and i get a top of the line customized Thinkpad for less than their 2000+.
@const_void@lemmy.ml because of quality of construction. I have thinkpad a running Linux that are more than 10 years old and all this without vendor support. Being able to find parts even after so many years is also important.Do any of these Linux friendly vendors have similar quality and similar prices?
Whenever I think about getting one of those systems I really don’t know if the company is going to exist in the next few years.I tend to use other people's cast-offs at work. Win 10 slow? JG gets an upgrade! I whip the SSD or M.2 or whatever I'm using out of the old one and pop it in the "new" one.
$$$
I didn't know about Starlabs but apparently THEY HAVE SHIPMENTS TO MEXICO YES!!! regarding your question these are these major reasons:
- for the most purists, the vendor should have a certificate from FSF saying that "it respects your freedom" a thing that almost no company have (at least that's what I saw in modern vendors)
- in my case and other regions, it's way more probably you can get a Thinkpad easily and more cheap than one from those mentioned
Side question since a lot of people knowledgeable about Thinkpads are here. What's a good used thinkpad model that can support remastered classic games like StarCraft and Quake II? All my linux distros are on HP and MSI hand-me-downs that are starting to break down, and I've been wanting to get a cheap, used thinkpad.
I've always kinda wondered what System76's stuff is like. Battery life'd be the main priority for my use case. (I really like my M2 Air for this)
Had a bad experience with System76 in the past.
Look at the prices.
I got a thinkpad for $50 at goodwiil. Those linux laptops are so much more expensive. I do plan on buying one soon tho cause I just got a new job
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Recently I had to decide what laptop I buy and I decided to buy an used Thinkpad T480s for 260€
I was browsing in the Framework and Slimbook websites but the price it's more than three times. It's true that they are new and the Thinkpad is used, but I was looking for Framework and Slimbook in second-hand websites but I didn't find nothing.
Linux is DIY by nature. Buying a fancy, brand new laptop is not.
Not saying you can’t do both. I’m just saying the Linux ethos lends to more crafty people.
I never have heard of any of those companies, so I expect PR might be a huge reason. Can't buy what you don't realize exists.
"Test of time" is not a valid argument anymore as there are newer ThinkPad models. To think there's only one ThinkPad model is an illusion.
Also Lenovo laptops are so sharp you could m*rder someone with it
I haven't found one that will reasonably sell me a warranty and that has a good reputation. Warranty cost is a proxy for how likely it will be to break and is insurance against having to shell out another $1k+ over a 3 or 4 year period. System76 is the only one I'd consider and their 3-year warranty is nearly $400. Thinkpad warranties are $150 for the same level of support and $200 for the warranty where they physically fly a person to fix your computer within a couple days.
