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So the genocide is going to stop if Republicans win right? ...Right?? I mean it's not like presidential candidates are signing bombs used on children saying to finish them... riiiight?
Its not going to stop no matter who wins.
It's the American Way™
Biden doesn't need my support right now. He needs it on election day. Until that day I'm going to criticize his actions (or lack there of) and how he runs his campaign (as is my right as an American) because he's doing a bad job (again) at making people want to vote for him.
It shouldn't be this difficult to beat an open fascist like Trump, but Biden is putting forth only token efforts to actually earn votes. He can stop payments to Israel. He can stop weapon shipments to Israel. That would earn him votes on the left, but he's too busy courting the right to bother. Too busy arguing with the ICJ that what's going on isn't genocide.
Yeah, Nikki Haley signed some bombs. Joe Biden signed the check that paid for them (metaphorically).
Biden doesn’t need my support right now. He needs it on election day. Until that day I’m going to criticize his actions
Excellent take. We can all be in agreement that Biden deserves criticism and needs to change positions, and then vote for him unhappily on election day if nothing changes. We don't have to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Better the devil we know than the ones explicitly telling us they will be worse.
Did you miss my first three sentences? I can still be critical of a candidate that I plan to vote for. We all should be more openly critical of the candidates we support. It promotes better candidates and lowers the tribalist walls that keep us insulated in our echo chambers.
Who said anything about voting for a republican?
Context clues my guy, when my feed is flooded with Genocide Joe memes because it's an election year and various interests are trying to dissuade people from voting so Republicans take power, it's pretty easy to tell what this meme is doing.
You think genocide Joe memes are to dissuade Republicans from voting for Joe Biden? You think someone concerned about genocide would vote for Trump for Biden? What?
It's about voter disillusionment. Make a big show about Joe Biden sending weapons to Israel equating that action to being the mastermind behind the Israel's genocidal campaign and distracting from the fact that trump will literally open the floodgates of our weapons stockpile to Israel accelerating tje genocide and get people who begrudgingly vote for biden because he's the less awful choice to reconsider voting at all.
Do you think maybe this is something beyond just trying to get people to vote for Trump? Maybe people just really hate genocide and don't like the idea of voting or supporting someone who is okay with it?
Think maybe there are third party options?
Do you think maybe the electoral college and the stupid voting situation in this country has made it so many people have an opportunity to vote third party while their state still goes to Biden??
Listen all I'm trying to say is people have a ton of different reasons to call out Joe for his support of genocide. You immediately defending it makes you and the things you stand for look bad because you're defending genocide. Just saying
I'm defending genocide by pointing out Republicans will accelerate the genocide if they win by people deciding not to vote?
Yes.
If anytime someone brings up how the current political establishment are aiding and abetting genocide and that's a bad thing and you immediately start defending them. You are defending genocide. 🤷
That's why I asked who said anything about voting for Trump. I'd shoot myself in the head before I did that. You know when I'm not going to do pretend like genocide Joe's not a f****** genocide enabler. Cuz I don't defend genocide or people who help commit them. You should try it real easy.
Read what I'm saying, this kind of messaging not about convincing people to vote for trump, it's about convincing people not to vote at all. Which always helps Republicans, and if they win, will 1000% accelerate the ongoing genocide. Doing nothing lets evil men get away with anything. And right now, for me, it's about damage minimization and maintaining pressure to reverse the policy.
So no I'm not endorsing genocide by saying that trump getting into office will absolutely make the situation worse.
I hear you. I'm going to try to be clearer
What I'm trying to point out to you is that you and many other people I see here as soon as anyone points out that the Democrats are backing a genocide and something needs to be done about it. Act like those people, including myself are supporting Trump or other Republicans.
All I'm trying to say to you is there are other strategies available and other reasons someone would not want to vote for Biden. Even in a way you might deem safe.
As soon as a criticism of Biden is made and there is a suggestion that something can be done about it, It is shot down by saying Trump would do it worse. This sentiment is used to stop people who want to stop the genocide. That's why I'm calling it defending genocide.
We all know Trump would do it worse. Do not vote for Trump. Or any Republican they all suck. The thing I'm trying to get through is most of the Democrats suck too. If we continue to vote for Biden, another Dems, we're going to get the same shit.
By instantly countering with someone who wants to do better by saying well, you're actually going to do worse. You were defending the status quo and part of the status quo is genocide.
Do you get what I'm saying?
I also see where you're coming from. And I do not want to support a genocide, but strictly in terms of electoral politics, and putting all other possible forms of civic engagement aside, we should not be dissuaded people from voting for the least shitty viable option.
People have been trying to make voting third party a thing for decades, and the last time a major political party fell was when the Progressive Republicans took to the nation stage in the mid 1800s and replaced the Whig party when the Northern Whigs and Southern Whigs split over the issue of slavery.
Abstaining from voting does not absolve you of the decisions of our government because whether you voted or not, you still pay taxes that are used to send bombs to a genocidal nation.
I do not like the current genocide, but I have no illusions that abstaining from voting is a good idea and there is no way that just rolling over and letting trump win will do anything other than accelerate and exacerbate the ongoing genocide.
If anyone should be rhetorically dissuaded from voting start targeting Republicans instead because scolding anyone voting for the least shit option in regards to the genocide is a shit strategy for stopping a genocide.
Do you think maybe the electoral college and the stupid voting situation in this country has made it so many people have an opportunity to vote third party while their state still goes to Biden??
Calculating whether you can safely throw your vote away to a third party candidate is a next level strategy.
Yes, thank you! If you were to go through my comment history, you'll see me arguing for voting for third parties in non-swing States. I also cite that if any of those third parties gets 5% in the vote, they get public funding in the next round as well as a chance to actually contend.
My vote is probably going to end up going for Claudia de La Cruz or Dr. Cornell West. Because I live in a hard blue state that will not change.
Another comment cuz I want to elaborate the problem is the Dems are controlled opposition. They pretend to be leftist and say they want to do the right thing but they never do. They're always a couple votes short or just somebody turned on them or something always goes wrong. Obamacare was even a right-wing idea that came out of the heritage foundation. That's why it sucks.
So solution we need an actual left-wing party. How do we do that without majorly screwing ourselves?
The only way I can think of outside of a violent revolution is slowly gaining control of a third party election after election to the point where it's a viable contender and can win.
The only alternatives are violent revolution and continuing to pick the lesser of two evils and continuing to have the most important election of our lifetime so far every election. We need to do better. We need to organize.
Being complacent with where we are, especially with enabling genocide will only put us on the chopping block eventually.
You're at a work retreat for a month, and management is taking a vote on what to get for food. Word is that everyone else is about 50/50 split between BBQ ribs, and pepperoni pizza. You're a vegetarian, what you'd really like is Indian food, but the only ones interested are a handful of other vegetarians. If ribs win, you starve, if pizza wins, you spend the next month picking off pepperonis. How do you vote?
Edit: lots of downvotes, but not a single answer. What a shock.
Again, no one said anything about voting for republicans. How about you try on this hypothetical:
You're president of the USA and the country that receives the highest amount of your foreign aid is committing genocide. If you continue sending billions in dollars and weapons then you lose votes, but if you stop supporting genocide, then you gain votes. How do you president?
But I'm not the president, I'm a voter. I'm not talking to the president, I'm taking to a voter. Hypotheticals about being the president offer no insight into beneficial behavior for myself or the one I'm taking to. Hypotheticals about voting strategy do.
Cool, who do I vote for to stop genocide?
No-genocide hasn't been on the ballot for many, many years. Turns out, the voters who feel strongly enough about this particular genocide for it to affect their vote are a fairly small fraction with characteristically low turnout anyway. Sadly, not really worth actively pursuing as a candidate.
Your choices are between measured diplomatic tolerance of genocide, and enthusiastic acceleration of genocide (with a couple other genocides thrown in too). It's a close race. No genocide doesn't have a chance, and voting no genocide increases the odds of enthusiastic acceleration of genocide.
No-genocide is on the ballot right now and it's being made loud and clear, but biden is choosing to ignore it and people like you are trying to shame the people who care about genocide into not caring about it with hogwash like this:
measured diplomatic tolerance of genocide
That is a ridiculous string of words.
I care about genocide, which is why I'm trying to minimize it by preventing Trump from getting into office. Y'know, they guy who thinks Israel should've gotten it over with already? People like you are trying to shame voters into letting the guy who wants more genocide into office. Congratulations, you're voting for more-genocide.
Don't bother with them. They're just a bad-faith actor who goes everywhere they can to peddle "Well, aktually, voting for MORE genocide is GOOD" bullshite.
It's never for them, it's for the on-lookers who might think they have a point.
As an onlooker, I'm happy to inform you both that I've been convinced to vote third party thanks.
Are you bragging about not understanding American elections, being an actual fascist, or deliberately voting against your personal interests? It's gotta be the fascism right? Who would brag about being ignorant or counterproductive?
None of the above. I understand how this country's electoral system works. I'm also a socialist farthest thing that could be from a fascist.
Did you just throw a bunch of random questions out there because you're a dumbass? Just kidding, I already know the answer is yes 🤣
Counterproductive to what genocide?
Basic logic. Third parties aren't viable in American presidential elections because of the spoiler effect present in our FPTP system. That means that you're happy to say you're voting third party because 1. You don't understand this basic fact 2. You do understand this basic fact, but it doesn't bother you because enabling the fascist voting block by throwing your vote away pleases you. 1 is self-explanatory, 2 is explained by either being a fascist yourself, or by being masochistically pleased by enabling fascists against your interests.
Being an actual socialist, who is against fascism, is incompatible with voting third party. Which means you either don't understand the electoral system (ignorant) or you do but you're enabling the fascist genocide accelerationists anyway (counterproductive).
Once again, splitting the vote to try to "teach the Democrats a lesson" is precisely what the Republicans want, since it increases their chances of winning. Another thing the Republicans want, once they win, is to wipe Palestine off the face of the earth, which is objectively worse for Palestinians (total-genocide) than Democrats (historic status quo of mild genocide). Total casualties are presently a relatively small proportion of Palestinians, that proportion will increase significantly under the MAGA administration.
MAGA increases genocide, splitting left vote to third party enables MAGA. Voting third party is counterproductive to fighting Palestinian genocide, Q.E.D.
Whose alt account are you? Don't you get your pay docked for being this obvious?
Which candidates did that? Or do you not mean literally? 🤔
No I mean literally. Nikki Haley is signing bombs headed to Israel, most likely for use in Rafah, writing Finish Them on the bombs.
Holy shit. I honestly thought this was bullshit so I had to look it up.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/29/us/politics/nikki-haley-finish-them-israel.html
What in the actual fuck
Wow. They really buried that one... I'm not sure if I'm glad I asked or not
I'm not sure what you have set up on your lemmy, but there's been a few posts on lemmy.world that picked up some traction.
The bombs don't kill as many children if you (edit:) don't sign them.
What the fuck?
Whoops, edited.