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lemmy.ml and anti-democratic meme? surprised not
why is this anti democratic again?
it creates biased impression that democracy is generally like this. it's like showing that ussr sucked, so any leftist ideology must sucks too
That's not how I read it... it's not really democracy if the guy being voted for is lying to the voters without repercussion (thus obstructing the voters' right to make an informed decision) so they can get into office and do things they know the voters wouldn't have voted for. That's anti-democratic in itself. This meme isn't saying democracy bad, it's saying that what we have now isn't a democracy.
Okay but the USSR didn't suck, it was a good attempt at workers democracy with massive problems, but smaller problems than bourgeois democracy
Yes, it also helped to liberate woman and gave them more opportunities, decreased illiteracy and MASSIVE russian retardancy, but overall it sucked at many levels and from the very start:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror -- look at the passage on tortures. This alone made me to despise USSR.
The red terror was much smaller than the white terror, and the torture is nothing that capitalist countries don't do on the regular. I for one would like to decrease the amount of torture in the world.
Yeah, I've heard about the white terror. This does not justify people who supposedly wanted a better world. I am quite sure that now amount of torture in western countries is negligible when compared with China and North Korea, and mostly by intrinsic flaws of e.g. police than political causes. And yes, I've heard about exceptions as Guantanamo or Pinoshit. Actually Pinoshit and Franco should not be counted as nominal western mindset, since they are authoritarian fascist piece of shits. I despise all authoritarian despots equally, no matter fascist Franco or "communist" Stalin.
I am quite sure that now amount of torture in western countries is negligible when compared with China and North Korea
This sounds like western chauvinism. Hoe can you be sure? The US has soo many blacksites, hell even local PDs have them.
Guantanamo or Pinoshit. Actually Pinoshit and Franco should not be counted as nominal western mindset, since they are authoritarian fascist piece of shits.
Pinochet was straight up supported by the west until it was too politically inconvenient, but by that time he'd already done his job of eradicating the left. Franco wouldn't have won if it wasn't for Britain, France, etc, enforcing "no arms and troops shipments" for the USSR but not for Italy and Germany. And they also weren't willing to accept Spanish republican gold.
I despise all authoritarian despots equally, no matter fascist Franco or “communist” Stalin.
Hmm. One of these people was a dictator. The other was democratically elected and lead the industrialization of a society that allowed it to defeat the industrial superpower that was Germany and end the holocaust.
This sounds like western chauvinism. Hoe can you be sure?
And how can you be sure? Given nontransparent smokescreen of all red imperialist countries like USSR, China and North Korea?
The other was democratically elected
Oh yes, USSR, the famous standard of democracy /s
end the holocaust
*replace it with the gulag system
And how can you be sure? Given nontransparent smokescreen of all red imperialist countries like USSR, China and North Korea?
You call them imperialist without having an understanding of imperialism.
For example, explain China increasing in manufacturing output as a percent of their economy as they enter and push into the middle income bracket?
Also, how the hell is the DPRK imperialist? The only place they've invaded was a US military dictatorship in the same country that they're in, while the US dictatorship was slaughtering 10s of thousands of protestors.
Oh yes, USSR, the famous standard of democracy /s
Yes. If you can't explain how the soviet councils were layered and how elections were carried out then don't pretend like you can argue about this in an informed way.
China uses a similar system and has a 95 percent approval rate, according to Harvard Surveys.
*replace it with the gulag system
This is holocaust trivialization. The gulags were not meant to kill people, and the mortality rate in them reflects this.
For example, explain China increasing in manufacturing output as a percent of their economy as they enter and push into the middle income bracket?
Exploiting cheap workers in inhumane conditions, resembling 19th century capitalism. Exactly what communism was supposed to end. China is getting robotized somewhat, since its society ages dramatically, but they want to keep polluting the world with cheap throwaways.
Also, how the hell is the DPRK imperialist?
DPRK constantly threaten South Korea and Japan. Apart the famous missile launches, it performs abductions, drug smuggling, marine poaching, and spying. And we have cyber attacks as well. The country is too shitty to invade another country full scale, but it does what it can do to be a bully, officially uses imperialist rhetorics and throw threats.
If you can’t explain how the soviet councils were layered and how elections were carried out then don’t pretend like you can argue about this in an informed way.
The elections were carried out in such a way, that an average worker had no chance to vote for a social demoratic party, anarchist party, or liberal democratic party. They even killed their communist opposition, Mensheviks. There is no democracy with a single party system, don't be ridiculous.
China uses a similar system
And is a similar authoritarian regime.
This is holocaust trivialization. The gulags were not meant to kill people, and the mortality rate in them reflects this.
Setting aside manufactured famine in Ukraine and genocides like Katyn, very cautious estimates says that around 30 millions of people were victims of gulag, with lethal 2,7 million victims. This is probably massive underestimation, since many of gulag documents were destroyed in 2014. But hey, the mortality rate was smaller than in Nazi death camps, great job USSR! /s
Russia (allegedly) has elections too however
Oh yes, Russia, the renowned standard of democracy /s
I mean give the man (or not) credit, some of the most powerful and influential countries in the world is where democracy suffers terribly either at the hand of despotism or at the hand of capitalism (likely both).
the most powerful and influential countries
these countries tend to dominate over other countries as they dominate over their own citizens. this should never be a goal. countries should be democratic between themselves as their citizens should be.
Yea but still it remains that democracy as it exists now is a major failure in some of the most influential countries, making democracy a failure for more than what %80 of the world (USA, Russia, India, China, and many more middle sized countries too)?
I dont think the meme is anti democratic per se, it is just anti democratic against a democracy of this type where usually people with a mentally ill levels of drive for power are at the top. It is making more fun of the fox than the sheep.
The CPC has like a 95 percent approval rating according to Harvard polling, what are you talking about?
I guess you mean CCP but who am I to disrespect great CCP
I mean, you've obviously done a successful revolution in your country, so you definitely know stuff about how to build socialism.
Next time I will make sure not to talk about goverments until I build one myself
Well, it might be so. But I am just suspicious about tankies showing flaws of democracy since they use it to "show" the supposed supremacy of "communist", authoritarian states as China.
You are conflating communism with authoritarianism as is commonly done on purpose or by accident to invalidate it. Anarchists are also often Communists and they oppose democracy for its oppressive properties as compared to consensus building and free association, that's a critique of democracy from an even more libertarian perspective.
Socialists and Communists also believe in the democratization of the economy, so that a capitalist owner class doesn't get to dictate how our labor and resources are allocated.
If you truly believe in freedom, you might be interested in anarcho-communism or socialism. Liberal democracy isn't as free as you think.
You mean the idea of communism or actually existing "communist" countries, like China, USRR or North Korea?
Those states, according to theory, are meant to be a transition TO communism, but of course many things can go wrong in that process, and we're kinda right back at the situation portrayed in the meme.
Despite my spat with the ML leftists in this thread, I see why the idea of a communist Vanguard state is appealing. I also see how a state which transforms into socialism or communism must be "authoritarian" in that it has to take away factories and land from those that keep it as capital, so that it can be shared. These states also had to contend with constant sabotage and aggression from the Liberal Democracies of the West who feared worker revolution coming to their own land.
Anarchists are a more idealistic bunch and generally strive to build parallel power structures and organizations of people and so try to construct a new order upwards. In practice it's hard to imagine that method being able to replace nation states, especially with similar external sabotage on top of the existing internal challenges of running an equal society. Dictatorships and blind supporters of authoritarian leaders are hard to best in terms of efficiency.
Both approaches seek to accomplish communism, anarchists want to have their dessert right away, Marxist-Leninists believe the wolf will take care of them just as soon as he's done eating his enemies.
There has never been a communist state, not as a cop-out, but because there is no state in communism by definition. These states claim that they're transitional towards communism.
Thank you for a quite objective response.
I also see how a state which transforms into socialism or communism must be “authoritarian” in that it has to take away factories and land from those that keep it as capital, so that it can be shared.
I think this will never work, or with a very small probability. Power simply corrupts and attracts a nasty kind of people. Personally, I believe that upwards, organic, evolutionary changes are more probable to bring us closer to the ideas of communism, as industrial evolution moved most of the world from feudalism into capitalism in a natural way.
anarcho-communism
Mfw the anarcho-syndicalists throw me in a labor camp
Lol this maymay cracked me up good internet joke i hope u get many points
Wait did you not know about the anarcho-communists doing labor camps?
My point is that authoritarian is a useless word. Anarchists accuse left wingers of being authoritarian and then do the exact same thing with a different name. Just accept that some parts of revolution are gonna suck and gonna have excesses.
Authoritarian is just a buzzword armchair generals throw around. All states rely on authority, including anarchist attempts like in Catalonia and Ukraine.
'elections' with reaaaaaaally big quotes
What in the world are you on about? This is about how politicians will pay lip service to the public but will act in their own interestd, usually based on their donors.
I get that you're on Lemmy.world, where everyone outside of your anticommunist bubble everyone is a secret scary tankie, but this is even worse of a take than nornal.
Well, maybe someone outside your tankie bubble may have an other interpretation.
The "tankie bubble" is Lemmy. Lemmy.ml doesn't defederate from larger instances, I see almost everything.
The “tankie bubble” is Lemmy.
Not so. The tankiest instances are lemmygrad and hexbear, while I think sh.itjust.works is neocon or lib at best, not to mention nazi "exploding heads" so we have a whole spectrum. I think Lemmy.ml had tolerable tankiness, but since lemmygrad and hexbear were rightly defederated from most instances, the tankies and wumaos are poisoning Lemmy.ml and much of fediverse with genocide denialism, authoritarian propaganda, etc.
Both Hexbear and Lemmygrad are largely self-sufficient, some people likely have alts but the idea that they are "poisoning" Lemmy.ml is silly. Marxists have always been here.
Yes, Marxists have been on Lemmy.ml and this is a good thing. But there is difference between Marxists and supporters of authoritarian regimes like China, Russia or North Korea, who are denialists of genocides like Bucha, Katyn, Tiananmen, etc. and who are cheap wumao/govnoyed propagandists.
Suggesting people read Marx gets you called a Tankie. I have even seen Anarchists get called Tankie. The term is meaningless at this point, and people attach a bunch of scary baggage to it as a way to pretend everything left of Liberalism is tankie.
The term is wide and sometimes misinterpreted, but actually not meaningless, since tankies are mainly associated with marxism-leninism (maybe sometimes maoism) and whitewashing of regimes as China, USSR, or North Korea. Same as the term "woke", which is even wider and horribly overused. Thus, I wouldn't call a western postmarxist leftist a tankie, and a lib or neocon probably would call this person a woke one :)
I read it as an oblique reference to this:
It may not have BEEN that, but I definitely saw it as a swipe against dishonest elected officials, not against democracy