[CW: mentions of Islamophobia] Is Islam as homophobic and sexist as westerners claim?
[CW: mentions of Islamophobia] Is Islam as homophobic and sexist as westerners claim?
I'm guessing it's like Christianity where there are leftist Christians who follow Jesus' more progressive messages such as giving to the less fortunate and healing the sick, and then there are the scary Christian evangelicals that want A Handmaids Tale and conversion therapy. Logically, Islam probably isn't a monolith in a similar way other religions aren't.
However, I have never heard about what those of the Islamic faith actually believe outside of the hysterical post 9/11 Islamophobia I've been indoctrinated with as a child.
I want to know what the truth is and hear the other sides story. To me it's obvious that Islamophobia is wrong, however when Islamophobes make wild claims about it, I can't really refute them confidently because I'm simply ignorant of the facts. Please educate my dumb, white ass.
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Religion is always trash. No way around that and even as open mind leftists or wannabe leftists we have to recognize that. However the worst elements of religion tend to moderate with development something the Muslim world has been denied by the great Satan
Religion is always trash.
L
There is a specter haunting this thread: the specter of Sam Harris style "not Islamophobic,
" Reddit New Atheism.it haunts the whole website!
the specter of Sam Harris style "not Islamophobic,
"I hate people like this, so, so much.
Feel free to square that circle and explain how religion and Marxism are able to go hand in hand. Marxism is a material analysis of the world. Religion is not and quite the opposite.
actually not interested in a debate reddit atheist, just wanted to let you know your take sucks!
What debate lol
What debate lol
Feel free to square that circle and explain how religion and Marxism are able to go hand in hand.
Marx called religion the soul of soulless conditions.
Sanctimoniously looking down on downtrodden people before anything about those conditions can even begin to improve must feel good, but it doesn't win anyone over that isn't already tipping fedoras at you.
Religion is literally used to maintain dominance over people and prevent condition from improving
Your smug bloviating is "literally" alienating and pushing people away that are so crushed by their present conditions that saying "um actually religion bad" is just an insufferable liberal-coded flex on them that makes them hate you more.
Plenty of New Atheists in the present day lick corporate boots and they are certainly contributing to a worsening of conditions, no formal religion required.
Have you fucking read Marx? The post-religious world comes a long time later and your self-congratulatory present-day smugness has no function or purpose in it.
"Hah, fine, I'll read Marx"
Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions.
"
and that's why i left the Left"
Ok I just thought about it some more, although I somewhat agree with your sentiment and think you have good intentions, I think it is quite unfair to say "religion is always trash" and vehemently disagree with that belief. We have users here who are Palestinian muslims currently facing a genocide *in no small part because of their faith, which gives people the will to continue in the face of unspeakable horrors, is definetely not "trash". We in the west have to remember that just because our own governments are insane genocidal christian/jewish extremists doesn't mean we can solipsisticly apply this judgement to everyone else, including the people who they are genociding. We should always remember to think of others and be considerate.
. We have users here who are Palestinian muslims currently facing a genocide because of their faith,
don't erase palestinian jews, christians, atheists, and whatever else. there's a fuckload of islamophobia in the zionist rhetoric but muslims are not the sole victims of this genocide and they can't get out of the genocide by changing religion.
this is parallel to nazi extermination of ethnic groups besides jews, whatever difference of proportion
oh yes absolutely I shouldve specified so it doesn't become a normative statement since I was mostly talking within the context of this thread and the comment, the pissraelis did make sure to ethnically cleanse and physically destroy some of the oldest Palestinian Jewish neighborhoods when they first settled
Fair enough. Trash isn't the best word to use when discussing a sensitive topic.
Agreed, also wouldn't say its a discrete abstract "sensitive topic", its moreso an acknowledgement of the sheer gravity of the current ongoing situation, the reality of the horrific genocide that our governments are bankrolling right at this very moment, the mass death and suffering that the west has failed to prevent. Even as we speak there are innocent people murdered and tortured by the enemy, whose loved ones may be posting here as well. We in the west need to discard condescending attitudes, come down from the ivory tower and return to reality so we can stop this genocide.
Trash isn't the best word to use when discussing a sensitive topic.
Sounds like "I am sorry if you are offended" weasel words.
Religion is always trash.
Please go and tell that to all the Muslim Palestinian resistance soldiers who are currently fighting tooth and nail to avoid being completely genocided by an army of insane demonic fucks that your government bankrolls and supports. Arrogant idiot bastard.
Christian zionists and Jewish zionists and their religious beliefs are a huge driving force in this genocide. If you're too dumb to realize that I don't know what to tell you.
The OG Zionists were atheist Jews who opportunistically used a religious text revealed by a God they don't even believe in to claim Palestine as their own. If anything, it was the more religiously observant Jews who resisted Zionism because they saw the bunk pushed by those particular atheist Jews as the bunk that it was. And while secular Bundism is no more, anti-Zionist Hasidic communities still exist.
No no, you heard the fedoralord. All sociopolitical problems are because of religion and if religion vanished tomorrow in a puff of euphoria, all would be well.
All sociopolitical problems are because of religion and if religion vanished tomorrow in a puff of euphoria, all would be well.
I didn't hear them say that.
And? So many of the current Israeli are religious fundamentalists. Jews are an ethno religious group and making Israel a country for Jews (literally their law) is both an ethno nationalist and religio nationalist project.
If you're too dumb to realize that I don't know what to tell you.
How about telling some of those aforementioned suffering people that ACKSHULLY their religion is the sole source of their suffering and how they're "too dumb to realize it"
and see how long you can stand there smirking at them before you got hurt.ACKSHULLY their religion is the sole source of their suffering and how they're
Your words not mine
Your words not mine
Yes, so get some reading comprehension so you can contextually understand them.
Marx himself said that a post-religious society was a good thing, many steps ahead.
There is no step of being a smug condescending fedoralord while capitalism is still crushing people. Or, as another poster just put it here:
"Hah, fine, I'll read Marx"
Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions.
and that's why i left the Left"You may not be leaving the left, but if all you have to contribute is being a divisively condescendingly smug fedoralord, maybe you should because Reddit beckons you back.
Can you link these Marx writings you keep referencing? I'm curious how he'd explain countries like China being so anti-religion, in practice if not in rhetoric? Can they just afford to be because they're post-revolution if not yet post-capitalism?
It wanders deep into apocrypha, but the subtext is there even at the start of the better-known Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right, which is where the "Opium of the People" line is derived from:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critique_of_Hegel's_Philosophy_of_Right
The foundation of irreligious criticism is: Man makes religion, religion does not make man. Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man – state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.
Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.
The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.
The conditions were ideal, even exceptional, for the people of China to reject religion in their proletarian revolution. The people attained an early post-religious viewpoint on their own; they didn't need, or even have use, for someone to approach them as they toiled and suffered pre-revolution and tell them why were, quoting this thread, "dumb" for what they believed. The revolution, as I said before, provided the post-religious societal movement as the will of the people, not some ideological conversion from some self-appointed luminary looking down on them from afar.
I'm curious how he'd explain countries like China being so anti-religion, in practice if not in rhetoric?
China is not remotely anti-religion in practice.
Is religion a progressive force or not? I'm just here to point out it's not. Dressing up my stance with your imagined motivations is a you problem. And I actually think that religion and capitalism are so tied up together at this point that a post capitalist world will have to come hand in hand with a post religious world.
AGAIN.
READ. MARX.
You are so fucking excited about the no religion part that happens after capitalism's end that you are using it to such smug and divisive ends in the here and now that even here you're just pissing people off and you somehow expect your fedorable messaging to win the working class over outside of here?
Do you build a table by trying to have dinner on the unassembled nails and planks first?
And I actually think that religion and capitalism are so tied up together at this point that a post capitalist world will have to come hand in hand with a post religious world.
You're clownishly ignorant if you don't notice that Silicon Valley's corporate sector is absolutely stuffed to the gills with New Atheists, right now.
Could you at least try to be as cool as this cat if you're going to be tipping that fedora of yours?
The new atheists are just a bunch of racists and that piece of shit Dawkins literally calls himself a cultural Christian.
Also in case it isn't clear the religion most tied in with capitalism is Christianity and the religion that has caused by far the most damage and will continue to do so in the future is Christianity.
I think all this Islamophobic propaganda which is at its core an racist project and not an anti religion project has made people reluctant to see or unaware of the harm other religions cause.
You're retreating to the old and tired "oh they don't count as real atheists because that may make my position look as clownish as it is" position.
Your circus act is old and tired. I've seen your smug tiresome act from plenty of other New Atheists many times before.
I ask once again, exhaustively, for you to ONCE AGAIN actually READ MARX and actually try to understand what he said beyond what you got out of it, which is apparently "religion bad" and "being smug and condescending toward religious people will surely rally the working class in the present and near future!"
"my cuck government and their proxy are genocidal religious extremists therefore all religion is trash including the one of the innocent people they are mass murdering, I am very smart"
The braindead uneducated arrogance of americans is truly something amazing to behold.
Not American. Not white. I really don't know what image you've cooked up in your head
Not American.
You're demonstrated that you're as chauvinistic and stupid as one, no imagination required.
Gotcha. Anyway I'm probably getting banned so feel free to keep this going
Actually you know what, in the spirit of making this site a better place to use for everyone and since you didn't really say anything bad I am sorry for aggressively responding to your original post and wrongly insulting your intelligence, very bad behaviour on my part. Next time it would have been better for me to start a productive discussion about the relationship between religious thought and the superstructure of class society. Unironically hope you have a good day.
Anyway I'm probably getting banned
For such a very enlightened New Atheist, you sure seem to like dragging around a self-righteous self-pitying cross.
