Second largest Lemmy instance preemptively un-friends Facebook
Second largest Lemmy instance preemptively un-friends Facebook
It should come as no surprise that the lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml] admin team took about 2 minutes to decide to pre-emptively block threats / Meta. Their transparent and opportunistic scheme to commodify the fediverse and it’s users will not be allowed to proceed. We strongly encourage other instance...
Lemmy.ml has now blocked Threads.net
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This is not particularly surprising. Lemmy was started as an anti-corporate project by leftists after /r/chapotraphouse got quarantined and later banned (subreddit for the most popular podcast and most donated patreon at the time), with the explicit goal of preventing corporate control from being able to silence leftists when they're blasting off. CTH was skyrocketing in subscribers at the time it was quarantined on August 8th 2019, and when even quarantining didn't stop its growth or slow down its activity afterwards Reddit pulled the plug under the excuse it promoted violence, but the only particularly edgy thing ever said there was "slave owners should be killed" and support for John Brown. This evolved post-ban into the assessment that Spez banned it because he wants to own slaves.
When that happened there was a massive shift in the leftist parts of reddit as we very quickly realised we'd be targeted if reddit ever deemed us to be too successful, and projects like Lemmy began in reaction. CTH's community in fact moved to Lemmy 3 years ago, and resides on Hexbear.net but has not yet joined the rest of federated lemmy due to technical issues (it used to be a fork with a different front end).
Given lemmy's specific anti-corporate origins seeing Lemmy.ml do this should surprise nobody. It's the correct move anyway.
Always love to hear the deep lore. Lemmy’s early development makes a lot more sense now. Good on them(you) to leave everything open and learn from Reddit’s mistakes.
Still, free and open has a limit. No Facebook and no Nazis. That’s just common sense everyone used to have.
The paradox of tolerance is real, and a particularly thorny issue for social networks.
Philosophies that promote intolerance can not be tolerated by tolerant communities.
What happens is the definition of nazi changes to incorporate anyone who disagrees with you.
I have this theory that people who complain about everyone being called nazis, have themselves been called a nazi.
Why do people call you a nazi, hmm?
That's literally never happened, so I can't answer. I'm basically a Marxist, though I'm not especially attached to that as an identity.
Maybe don't parrot nazi talking points then
I'm also a vegetarian, does that make me Hitler? Temper your hysteria.
I've made you aware that claiming the word "nazi" doesn't mean anything anymore is a thing nazis do.
Do with that what you will.
I'm going to the gym!
Cheers!
The word "Nazi" and especially "fascist" have been diluted into "bigot" at best and "person I disagree with" at worst. The right are just as bad with "communist" and "socialist", although with the difference that socialism is a perfectly decent ideology, and even communism isn't as bad as fascism.
Any form of ultranationalist is a nazi. Any questions?
No, but you sound like Jeff Tiedrich 😂
I'm not american, no idea who he is. Google says some musician?
I just know him as the guy who says "any fucking questions" on Twitter, I'm not American either.
Ahh gotcha. I meant it though it wasn't rhetorical, I will answer questions.
No, I'm fine with that definition, that's a sane use of the term. Part of me thinks we'd be better off reserving "nazi" for those who openly align themselves with the historical group and just use the descriptor "ultranationalist" for modern instances of ultranationalism. Might reduce equivocation.
I think the problem there is that a shit load of people are so uneducated that they don't associate nationalism with the nazis, they only associate the holocaust as the bad thing they did and really don't understand that ultranationalist ideology will lead to a repeat of what occurred over and over again. Thus it becomes much easier to just say nazi when referring to these ultranationalists even though it's technically incorrect when the ultranationalism they support is actually polish, or american, or fucking italian, idk etc etc etc. They're all have pretty much the same goals just in a different set of completely made up lines on a map.
So you admit that Antifa are as Nazis like Maga are? Or are rightoids worse for some arbitrary reason again?
Antifa are not ultranationalists. The vast majority are anarchists and communists, which are internationalist ideologies. Literally the polar opposite.
You could call them an authoritarian paramilitary group, but they're not nazis. That doesn't automatically make them good, it's just that nazism is a specific political ideology.
Half of them are anarchists, calling them authoritarian is a grandpa’s facebook-tier understanding of the situation
I've yet to meet an anarchist following anything like a coherent ideology in that respect. They all seem very eager to impose themselves on others. I suppose one guy took a more academic position, but still seemed to idolise violence. Maybe the authority is decentralised, but frequently wielded as explicit force. Not far from libertarianism in that regard. Doesn't appeal.
What is your solution to prevent nazi rallies?
Cluster munitions, for all I care. What's that got to do with anything? I was explaining my use of the word authoritarian. I'd make them illegal, if I were in a position to do so. But my place in society is installing irrigation and water management systems, I have to focus on that.
[reposting this comment, last one apparently never made it over to lemmy.world]
What’s that got to do with anything?
Stopping nazi rallies is the main thing antifa does. You seem to oppose them doing it.
I’d make them illegal, if I were in a position to do so
But you’re not. None of us are. So that leaves what other options?
test comment to see if this shows up, the other comment doesn’t
What a pointless question though. Obviously in the context 'Nazi' means what it means NOW.
'Peadophiles should be locked up' 'ah but what if the definition of Peadophile changes to incorporate anyone who has sex??'
When I asked that I ended up with more than -100 and comments like "oh so you defend them".
"I like waffles."
"Oh, so you hate pancakes!"
Yes, in fact I'm calling for the centrally-organised, systematic eradication of pancakes from the breakfast menu. That's what I mean when I say I like waffles.
The fact that you people can't see how distasteful it is to compare the fucking Nazis to breakfast foods in a cute way, says everything anyone needs to know about you.
Comparing mere assholes to Nazis is antisemitic, much less comparing anyone who disagrees with you to Nazis.
You're young, you'll weather with time. We're all just trying to get along.
My guy, you have no idea how old I am.
Weather into what? If you're trying to suggest the old, "you'll get more conservative as you get older and start paying taxes," then I can just stop you right there because it's been several decades now, and I'm only going in the opposite direction. The last few years have pretty much radicalized me against capitalism, and pushed me further left than I've been my entire adult life.
But any day now, right?
If that wasn't what you meant, then you can disregard.
Not what I meant - I've also become more left-wing with age. Particularly with regard to class stratification. But I also put a lot more effort into getting along with people, at least in real life.
Not really sure what you meant then. I don't think I'll ever think it's OK to compare the holocaust to removing a breakfast item from the menu.
Isn’t “sneed” mostly a 4chan joke these days? Seeing it in someone’s username always makes me squint
No idea, I don't use 4chan. It can produce funny content, but I don't think I could stand to wade through the shit. It's a legacy username, it's mine and I cherish it.
Yes, it didn't take long for somebody to accuse me of being a literal nazi. Those are odd people, though. Don't tend to meet them in the real world, only on the internet.
An actual "called it" moment.
Wasn’t that the time Spez got caught editing comments from users?
Naw that was way sooner, over on the_donald. That subreddit also got banned at the same time as CTH but had been dead for months by that point because they all moved to [DONOTVISIT]thedonald . win(now a virus site) followed by patriots.win. It was basically their way of softening the CTH shit and trying to make it less of an obvious attack on the leftist (non liberal) spaces of reddit. Nobody fell for it.
Not leftists, Stalinists; The sort of people who end up killing all the other leftists any chance they think they might be close to taking power.
Mate I do not give a flying fuck what any of these people with zero power are. I care about actually achieving shit. Fortunately I live in the UK where this bizarre sectarianism has absolutely no presence, thank fuck for that.
If you lived in the UK you'd be against the head of the RMT union currently striking the UK railroads, who publicly calls James Connolly his political hero and is an obvious marxist-leninist. You'd be against Jeremy Corbyn, because he defends the Soviet Union and always has, he also promotes the Black Panthers who defended north korea (if you look in the corner of the video around 2:00 there's even a cute little soviet cccp statue). You'd be against Diane Abbott, because she's publicly defended Mao on national television. You'd probably find something to be against John Mcdonnell who has said his job is to overthrow capitalism on the BBC, probably because he's quoted Mao and read his little red book in parliament?
My point here is that you've got to get a grip. We don't do this bizarre shit over in the UK because there's literally no point, there is no communist revolution just around the corner, the conditions do not exist for it. What matters is what we can achieve RIGHT NOW, when a revolution is actually on the cards then we can decide what that revolution should actually fucking look like. In the meantime these people are all mild lukewarm elected MPs as socdems that just want to give people more welfare and improve basic living standards, but you would call them evil tankies for any of these things.
If you don't build at least SOME power now you will have absolutely none when the conditions deteriorate enough for a real revolution, and if that is the case it will be fascism that wins, not any sect of the absolutely non-existent left in your country.
What you're viewing above is how radical you need to be just to establish and maintain lukewarm european welfare and social safety nets. Get that into your head and you might actually stop the aussie government dumping migrants into concentration camps and help improve people's lives for fuck's sake. You should know better than this anyway, half the union leadership of australia are marxist-leninists, and the other half are trots. What union are you in? I'll tell you whether you need to throw your union leader under the bus for some fucking do-nothing liberal because of your sectarianism obsession. Are you even in one?
Are you saying the UK, you don't have leftist factionalism? Fucking get off it mate.
Not really among the actual leftists. There is a conflict between the neoliberal starmerites who fake being left and the actual leftists that he has been purging so hard it puts stalin to shame, there is barely any fighting among the actual UK left because we do not give a fuck. I don't fucking care what the person next to me on the roof of an Israeli weapons factory believes, I care that he's going to have my back when the cops show up. I do not care what the person next to me on the picket line believes, I care that they're fucking there. If you said this shit in person at an event you'd get knocked out or if you're lucky sidelined and ostracised by just about every group in the left for being a wrecker whose goal is clearly not to help but to divide.
Very very rarely there is some extremely cringe jabs between the trots and the MLs, but not particularly often because there's no fucking point. The anarchists are ironically the least sectarian, simply caring that people show up when the hunt sabos need it because there's fuck all people in the countryside as it is to be picky about what kind of leftist someone is. Everyone shows up for everyone's events, because having a left is far more fucking important than arguing over 100 year old cringe while workers lives are being made worse NOW. All you're doing with this shit is helping capitalists by weakening leftists.
And you didn't answer my question about what union you're in?
I agree with a lot of your points about pragmatism but there absolutely is factionalism on the left in the UK, unless (as it looks like you are doing) you say some of them are not actually leftist and therefore the remaining group is small enough that it's not arguing with itself.
The right are also split but in normal times they are better at keeping the worst of it behind closed doors and rallying around the leader when the dust settles. Lack of message discipline is what kills the left at the ballot box. New Labour were good at it and they won; Starmer is trying to do the same - sensible tactic in my opinion.
The neoliberals are not actually leftist. This is a 100% fact, if you are arguing that the capitalists are leftists then you are also not a leftist. They are centre right. The transphobic neoliberals and privatizers trying to destroy the nhs and build a "free and open" energy market for the sake of preventing our attempts at nationalisation can eat my ass, so can their by-association transphobic mysogynistic supporters. You can get to fuck with your "yeah they're actually toooootally leftists dude belieeeeeve me" bullcrap. It is unbelievable that you would mention New Labour under Tony Blair, a party that killed 2 million people and exploited the fuck out of the middle east and continue to pretend that you are left wing, you are not, you are an imperialist, capitalist neoliberal.
It is blatantly clear why you didn't answer the question about what union you're in and did not cite any organising, you don't do any for the left and you've made that abundantly clear to anyone that knows these parties and groups. The only reason you have any votes at all is because the majority of people here are americans and they have absolutely no fucking idea what we're talking about now.
All they need to know is that you support neoliberals. The crowd here definitely knows neoliberalism isn't leftist.
No surprises that this conversation started off with you trying to discredit me by screeching "tankie", you knew that if you made it clear what your actual political affiliations are and made a real political argument it would be unpopular.
I'm a different user to the guy you were originally having a conversation with.
No need to get so personal!
Oh well doesn't change much does it?
There is nothing personal about pointing out your support for transphobes. It's just a political fact. If you don't want to be a transphobe, do not support transphobes. Much like if you don't want to be called a neoliberal, don't defend neoliberals, and definitely don't try to claim they're left. You'd get laughed out the room in any offline scenario.
I'm not a transphobe and you have no information on which to base that assumption. If you call everyone a transphobe it ceases to have any meaning and you have nothing left for when someone is being actually transphobic.
You support Starmer. Starmer's labour is transphobic, he has given interviews to mumsnet where he says explicitly terf things. He has explicitly come out in favour of segregating trans people from women's bathrooms and other spaces. You support this. Ergo you are transphobic. The party needs shot of him he's a disgrace.
You have to understand that under a Presidential system we do not have the political capability of forming a Marxist-Leninist or Anarchist party. We have two parties and the first-past-the-post system guarantees that only two parties will ever be politically relevant.
As a result, it is political poison for left-leaning folks to associate with Marxist-Leninists. That isn’t a popular political ideology here and we are not going to win elections with that label.
Bernie made some progress on that front, but in the USA our coalition calls themselves Progressives and shies away from the scary communist and ML labels. But the (few) people who would call themselves that are still in the tent, we just prefer that they not poison the messaging with unhelpful, unelectable rhetoric.
What are you on about there are multiple growing ML parties in the US. PSL does excellent work.
You're obsessed with electoralism, you have no understanding that the goal of MLs has literally nothing to do with electoralism. You can not establish socialism by winning elections, it has not happened and it will never happen. The furthest left possible through electoralism is socdem shit and the american ruling class already proved they won't even allow that anymore.
All you can think of is elections and whether it's possible to win percentages. Your brain is goo. You're completely stuck in the mindset of american civil religion, believing only in institutional paths for anything in everything. This is an uneducated mindset to politics. The biggest gains are always won in the streets. What's wild about this is that americans have the civil rights movements and have watched lgbt people change things in the last 50 years entirely through actions in the streets and still have no idea what politics means outside of electoralism. It's like a country of children.
You realize things in the UK aren't that bad, right? Like we have it way better than America. Nobody I know is seriously struggling. We luckily still have free healthcare and a social safety net. I hate to say it but you're screaming over a much better situation than lots of countries are dealing with.
Even those remotely close to struggling don't blame capitalism and are actually right wing or centrists. At least this is what I have seen personally. It's not like these people are transphobic or racist either.
It's people like you guys that scream endlessly that are part of the problem. You're never going to convince anyone who doesn't already support the cause like that.
We also know the shit show that happened in Russia the failed ML revolution there, and basically everywhere else that tried it. Backing ML is getting you nowhere fast. Anarchists have more luck these days.
I think it's also worthwhile to point out that striking in the UK does almost nothing. This is partially because people don't strike at the same time. If they did it would be utter chaos. Things might even change.
It's also true that lots of strikes are not skilled labour. We all know jobs like bus driver are not paid very much, yet people complain anyway, and I can't help but think: you knew exactly what kind of job you were getting into. I sort of know better because bus drivers are an essential function regardless of what you think of them, so they should be paid fairly. Lots of people won't think like this though. It's also dead easy to replace unskilled labourers so scabs are always going to be a problem.
Also even the conservatives come up with schemes to help the people that are public spending heavy. Examples include furlough, eat out to help out, and the £2 bus faires that are happening right now. They aren't neoliberal at all. Schemes like that are not true right wing anymore than labour is true left wing in this country.
You realize things in the UK aren’t that bad, right? Like we have it way better than America. Nobody I know is seriously struggling. We luckily still have free healthcare and a social safety net. I hate to say it but you’re screaming over a much better situation than lots of countries are dealing with.
You are either taking the piss or you are completely and utterly sheltered in your middle class bubble.
4.2million children live in poverty, out of 12.7million total. This amounts to one third of children in poverty. The NHS is literally falling apart at the seams, my family works in the NHS, it has been strangled to death. A lot of it has been stealthily privatised and the rest is just being intentionally ruined. It's on its last legs and is barely providing essential care.
Even those remotely close to struggling don’t blame capitalism and are actually right wing or centrists. At least this is what I have seen personally. It’s not like these people are transphobic or racist either.
This is factually incorrect. Low income votes go left while high income votes go right. There was a blip created by brexit where this was not the case because everything became the single issue of brexit. Low income voters were convinced that voting for brexit would improve their conditions (they were lied to successfully) and incorrectly voting against their best interests. This however is now returning to left, although with Starmer at the helm and people outside of the politically engage the vast majority of the country has no idea what a slime he truly is. Backed by the media who want to see the real left fucked over as well, he'll likely do alright.
Backing ML is getting you nowhere fast. Anarchists have more luck these days.
Where exactly? Show me the successful anarchists?
It’s also true that lots of strikes are not skilled labour. We all know jobs like bus driver are not paid very much, yet people complain anyway, and I can’t help but think: you knew exactly what kind of job you were getting into.
Unskilled labour is a myth used to suppress wages. I honestly can't believe you're spouting this while claiming to be left wing at all.
Also even the conservatives come up with schemes to help the people that are public spending heavy. Examples include furlough, eat out to help out, and the £2 bus faires that are happening right now. They aren’t neoliberal at all. Schemes like that are not true right wing anymore than labour is true left wing in this country.
Furlough was an economic necessity. Eat out to help out is literally just a business promotion and has fuck all to do with helping the population it's about business owners, literally their target audience.
the £2 bus faires that are happening right now
While much of the world is making buses 100% free.
And once again, this has nothing to do with helping people and is actually about helping businesses.
I agree about the state of the NHS. The fact is though we still have an NHS, America never had one. Lots of countries don't have healthcare either.
How exactly is unskilled labour a myth? Maybe I should use the term less skilled or just easily replaceable since it's not 100% unskilled? Either way the result is the same: some labour takes way more time and training than other forms of labour. I don't think you can complain when a scientist or doctor that spent 7+ years at University while not getting paid gets a higher salary at the end. If you think this is a radical idea I really don't know what to tell you. I don't think anybody should be on poverty wages.
This is factually incorrect. Low income votes go left while high income votes go right. There was a blip created by brexit where this was not the case because everything became the single issue of brexit.
I am reporting what I have seen amoung students rather than the general population. The ones who have already been in work or are having to work hard to support themselves while studying are more centrist or right wing.
4.2million children live in poverty, out of 12.7million total.
By third world country standards they are probably rich. Poverty is very much relative. Some people make less in a day than minimum wage in this country for an hour. It's still not a good thing by any means, but that's sadly the reality. I don't think a socialist revolution is going to guarantee everybody has enough food, clothes, and other resources. A lot of people would inevitably end up poorer than to start with, at least for the foreseeable future.
How exactly is unskilled labour a myth? Maybe I should use the term less skilled or just easily replaceable since it’s not 100% unskilled? Either way the result is the same: some labour takes way more time and training than other forms of labour. I don’t think you can complain when a scientist or doctor that spent 7+ years at University while not getting paid gets a higher salary at the end. If you think this is a radical idea I really don’t know what to tell you.
Nah you should stop perpetuating far right anti-worker shit. Nobody is saying that.
I don’t think anybody should be on poverty wages.
Then stop saying the bullshit used to cause it.
I am reporting what I have seen amoung students rather than the general population. The ones who have already been in work or are having to work hard to support themselves while studying are more centrist or right wing.
So the people that can afford university education. You are sheltered and live in a bubble. I on the other hand grew up in squats.
By third world country standards they are probably rich.
Sound like a tory mate. Tell this to the 3million people in the country suffering from malnutrition. I genuinely can't fucking believe you are saying this shit, today there are 3million people using foodbanks, 15 years ago this figure was 30,000 or so. Are you fucking dense? Blind? Literally oblivious to the cliff we have fallen off of?
Poverty is very much relative. Some people make less in a day than minimum wage in this country for an hour. It’s still not a good thing by any means, but that’s sadly the reality. I don’t think a socialist revolution is going to guarantee everybody has enough food, clothes, and other resources. A lot of people would inevitably end up poorer than to start with, at least for the foreseeable future.
Rent in the soviet union was 5% of your total income.
I grew up an area that's recognized as one of the most deprived in England. It's called Bridlington if you want to look it up. My family are not the worst off but we were never rich. My mum was a teaching assistant and/or teacher and my dad worked it hospitality as a manager. So not the worst jobs but also not the best. They both worked full time.
It's also a completely wrong that only middle class people go to University. We have this amazing thing called student loans that are only repayed above certain wages. You get bigger loans the less well off your parents are.
I don't know what you have to do to be classed as middle class because it's not an easier defined term. It's also not a term really used by marxism. They use the term petite bourgeois if my understanding is correct. I guess you could call my parents that as they were landlords. But at the same time they had to work full time at a normal job and all houses were mortgaged. So you could also say they are the proletariat. This is why the marixst class model dosen't actually hold up always in real life. Real life is too complex as people can be in multiple classes at once.
You're also going to get nowhere by disparaging other workers just because they earn more than you. That's what you seem to want to do.
It's also completely natural for some people to be paid more than others based on their labour. The Soviet Union had this exact policy for jobs that required more education or more physical work. That's exactly how it should be outside of a post- scarcity society.
It's good that rent was that low in the Soviet Union but you also have more needs than housing. Food comes to mind where many people starved due to collectivisation efforts in the Soviet Union at the start. I understand they rectified this later but it is probable that the early stages of a socialist society will have problems like this. Things are likely to get worse in the beginning - not better.
amazing thing called student loans
It used to be 100% free. When the country had less money than it does today. Oh and the railways we publicly owned. And the post office. And significantly more of the NHS. And the gas and water. And the rest. All at the same time. With less money.
I would not call it "amazing". And you're completely delusional if you think that the existence of student loans makes university accessible. Many people can not afford living expenses to make it work without familial support, which I'm glad you had but it's not what many people have. It's privileged.
I don’t know what you have to do to be classed as middle class because it’s not an easier defined term. It’s also not a term really used by marxism. They use the term petite bourgeois if my understanding is correct. I guess you could call my parents that as they were landlords. But at the same time they had to work full time at a normal job and all houses were mortgaged. So you could also say they are the proletariat. This is why the marixst class model dosen’t actually hold up always in real life. Real life is too complex as people can be in multiple classes at once.
Lol landlords are petite-bourgeoisie, not proles. The petite-bourgeoisie are in between workers and the bourgeoisie in that they both exploit and do some work because they are not yet exploiting enough to completely cease function as a worker. They're also the biggest parasites on the planet.
It’s also completely natural for some people to be paid more than others based on their labour. The Soviet Union had this exact policy for jobs that required more education or more physical work. That’s exactly how it should be outside of a post- scarcity society.
I don't know where you've got the impression that I think everyone should be paid equally. In my personal opinion wages should be based on how necessary to society they are. Essential workers would be paid vastly more while the vast quantity of bullshit jobs(read theory) would be paid the bullshit rates they deserve.
It’s good that rent was that low in the Soviet Union but you also have more needs than housing. Food comes to mind where many people starved due to collectivisation efforts in the Soviet Union at the start. I understand they rectified this later but it is probable that the early stages of a socialist society will have problems like this.
The region was prone to famines every 10 years for a thousand years. The soviets ended that permanently. Unfortunately mistakes were made with not having a secondary level of oversight, they over-trusted the reported numbers of grain given by the kulaks who were hording it for profit and it caused a famine that could have been avoided and later was once secondary checks were implemented.
Things are likely to get worse in the beginning - not better.
Things will get worse before the revolution, not after it. Revolutions do not happen without a cause. Things get considerably better after them. What you're missing is that things are getting worse NOW, they have been getting worse since 2008, they are continuing to get worse, there is absolutely nothing on the horizon that will make them better. Things are going to get worse. We will continue down this path until the conditions get bad enough for things to get very interesting. We are working to build renters union orgs up like Acorn that we believe will be fundamental to the future resistance as renters will outnumber homeowners in the near future, on top of the usual trade unionism, and the other stuff you simply can't discuss online.
You know it's a proper leftist you are arguing with when each reply is 10 times the length as the thing they are responding to.
It's when things are multiple quotes deep and quotes are getting [...] snipped that it's time to logoff.
That tends to happen when one side knows a lot more than the other side in a conversation
Nah that’s when you know they’re terminally online and have too much time on their hands.
Or they type fast and have a lot to say /shrug
They don't endulge the crimes, none of them do.
And they don't seek power, if they did, they wouldn't be working on Lemmy for less than 1K USD a month 😒.
Do they denounce the crimes?
Edit: The silence is deafening.
Yes, most of them do.
But, none of you ever visit that place or engange in conversation, so you wouldn't know 🤷.
Well that's good news at least. Still dosen't make sense why you would support a guy that killed Anarchist and Marxist comrades just because they disagreed with him
Not saying it makes sense, I don't agree with some of them either, but most of them are a really great crowd, not to mention very well read/informed and educated... you basically can't win in a debate with most of them.
