After 50 million miles, Waymos crash a lot less than human drivers

That doesn't solve the last mile problem, or transport for all the people who live outside of a few dense cities.

Yes it does, if done properly. I have stops for four bus lines within walking distance. During peak hours, buses come once every 15 minutes. Trolleys in the city centre, every 10 minutes. Trams, every two minutes, and always packed. Most of the surrounding villages have bus stops. A lack of perspective is not an excuse.
- Well if YOU have a bus stop near you then everyone must! That's just science!
  
  If you build it they will come
  
  Because having a bus to pick up 7 people in a day is really efficient economically and environmentally...
  
  For sure. Just cruising around the countryside on the off chance that someone actually needs the bus that day. They haven't for the past few but they have to go shopping eventually.
  
  Much more so than having a car-centric infrastructure. If you start cherry-picking you'll of course find cases where a car would have been more efficient but public transportation needs to be understood as a whole.
  
  I'm not cherry picking Im just telling you my personal experience and the town I live in
  
  Yeah, all three of them.
  
  Uh, yes, actually. I know someone like you can't even fathom the possibility of a public transit system being well-built because you've been gaslit into believing that whatever happens in The West is the best humanity can offer, but we've got 80 bus and trolley lines criss-crossing the city. As a guesstimate, three quarters of the city is within a 10-minute walk from a stop, and the elderly and disabled who can't walk benefit from the resulting reduction in traffic.
  
  And all the world is cities! There's noooooooooo other type of living. Your egocentric view of the world is going to carry you really far.
  
  Did you hallucinate that I said anything like it or something? Obviously not every situation is solved by the same concept. Dense city centres -- sidewalks, bike paths, trams, human-scale infrastructure. Suburban areas -- abolish Euclidean zoning, European-style grid streets, buses, local light rail services. Inter-city transit -- high-speed rail. Smaller villages and towns -- regional rail. It's an issue that most of the developed world has solved.
  Public transit is not supposed to replace cars altogether, but give people another choice. A transit system that is built well, operated well, and cheap, will reduce the reliance on cars, and make the streets safer for people or services that have to use cars.
  
  Public transport can, and does work in rural areas too.
- "most of the surrounding villages"
- I live on a 40mph road with no sidewalk or shoulder. That is connected to a 45mph road with no sidewalk or shoulder. My nearest bus stop is 3.2 miles away.
  I'm not even that far out, I can drive to a major city downtown in 30 minutes.
  That's great that you have all this infrastructure around you, but not everyone does. Like you said, a lack of perspective is not an excuse.
  
  That's not out of necessity. It's a design decision. You could have one nearby with the right elected officials and public effort. You also chose where to live, with the ability to know where existing stops are. If you chose the live away from a bus stop or other public transport then that's on you.
  
  So fuck everyone who can't afford to, or doesn't want to, live in the city?
  I can, do, and will vote for officials that want to expand public transit. I also appreciate other efforts being taken, because I don't let perfect be the enemy of the good, and I recognize that no one solution works for everyone.
  
  So fuck everyone who can't afford to, or doesn't want to, live in the city?
  What the hell? Were did you pull that from my comment?
  We need to work to improve public transport everywhere. Switzerland can have timely consistent trains to tiny villages in the fucking alps. We can have it here. We need to push for it though.
  People saying "it doesn't work for me right now so shut up" are actively harmful to the discussion. They're choosing to be in a position where it doesn't work at all (though it doesn't work well for almost anyone in America outside of DC and NYC). I'm not saying "fuck them" I'm saying "your opinion is not relevant if it's only complaining about doing better because it's bad for you right now."
  Its like saying we shouldn't go to the moon because it's hard right now, or we shouldn't try to develop nuclear fusion technology because it's hard right now. I don't care if it's hard right now. We're discussing what could/should be.
  
  Here's a summary of this thread:
  Guy 1 - why is anyone doing waymo when there's public transit
  Guy 2 - last mile problem
  Guy 3 - it works great for me in the city surrounded by bus stops, no last mile problem
  Me - it doesn't work great for me barely outside the city. (My point being that it'll take a lot to get public transit to within 1 mile of where I am, let alone to someone even further from the city)
  You - that's your own fault so stop complaining
  Me - so fuck me and everyone farther out than me apparently.
  That's how we got here. I simply stated my situation as it relates to public transit, and you tell me it's just my own fault and I should shut up.
  We have a long way to go to get ubiquitous public transit in America. I doubt we will ever get there. It makes sense to consider other options as well.
  I'm saying we should go to the moon AND develop nuclear fusion.
  You want to know what's harmful to discussion? Pricks like you telling people that their opinion is irrelevant.
  
  I think you misunderstood most of what doesn't agree with you (purposefully or not).
  Waymo is an investment.
  So is public transport.
  One is more effective and better for more people.
  Why are we investing in Waymo?
  You want to know what's harmful to discussion? Pricks like you telling people that their opinion is irrelevant.
  Your opinion about right now is irrelevant to the discussion of how things should be. It is not irrelevant in a discussion about right now, only this one. Every time public transport is discussed someone like you feels the need to say "it doesn't work FOR ME (currently)!" OK... I'm not sure why we needed to know that. No one said it was great for everyone right now so you didn't add anything to the discussion. It only is a distraction from actually trying to fix things for you. Sometimes this is on purpose and sometimes it isn't. Either way, it's harmful not helpful.
  
  Someone mentioned the last mile problem, and someone else responded as if it doesn't exist based purely on their own situation (right now). I'm pointing out that it does exist with my situation as an example (right now).
  That's all. Should we pretend like there's no last mile problem?
  Maybe in some ideal world, the last mile problem could be solved purely with public transit. We don't live in that world. Investing as of we live in an ideal world is foolish.
  If one approach is effective for more people, that's great, but shouldn't we also invest in solutions that fill the gap?
- It’s better to have a few self driving cars that are safer than everyone owning their own car. It’s like getting gas guzzling vehicles off the road: better to replace a humvee with a sedan than a sedan with an electric.
  
  Good thing we basically got rid of sedans in favor of "light truck" SUVs...
- Public transport (with acceptable intervals) is only (practically) feasible in densely populated areas, like cities and maybe the immediate surroundings. There's no chance every tiny village in the middle of bumfuck nowhere is gonna have even a resemblance of acceptable public transport. You'd need a driver to drive around all day where most trips are completely or mostly empty.
- ROFL ya because taking 5 separate buses to get to work is TOTALLY going to encourage people to get rid of their cars.
  Fucking brilliant.
  Oh ya and I TOTALLY want to give up my car just so I can be forced to sit next to rude assholes coughing in my face.
  These brilliant suggestions are amazing.
  
  Jesus. Ten of the hottest years ever recorded were the last ten. Its time for some major changes. If more people rode public transport it would be better.
  All your objections seem to be about how inconvenient it would be for you. Sound kinda self-centered. Act like the only way to get by is to continue to conspicuously consume everything. Get a fuckin grip.
  Edited with less profanity and name calling
  
  Fella it isn’t me you need to convince. It’s the billions of other people on the planet you need to convince.
  If you think you can force the entire world then by all means and try.
  
  And also clearly you. As you seem to have decided you won't participate until every single one of the other billions do.
  
  Pretty much. I’m not trashing my life and living in the slums while the rest of the world doesn’t care.
  If the world wants more from me then they can step up too.
  
  Ew
  
  Don’t care
  
  Clearly. You compared adjusting even a part of your life to living in the dunps and trashing it completely. You are clearly self centered and wouldn't care.
  So, you are a gross person and I don't expect you to care.
  Duh, and still ew.
  
  If you had your tantrum offline, nobody else would have to see it.
  
  Ew
  
  The market will fix it for you when gasoline prices quadruple. If demand drops (and it will), the fossil fuel oligopolies will try to maintain profits by price-gouging, since demand for fuel for cars is pretty inelastic.
  
  You do realize that if we invest in more mass transit, then the people who want to take the bus will. That means fewer cars on the road and less traffic that you have to deal with. If you like driving your car and the freedom it gives you, advocating for more mass transit is in your favor. Imagine your commute with 90% less traffic. Doesn't that sound appealing to you? Dedicated bus lanes that keep the slow busses out of your lane, doesn't that sound appealing to you? I don't know about you, but I love driving, and to me, that sounds like an absolute win
  
  5 separate buses
  Holy hyperbole, Batman!
  To get to work 25 miles away, it takes 2 trains (commuter and light rail) and a bus. I personally don't take transit though, not because of the other passengers, but because of how infrequent those lines run, which turns what should be an hour commute into two, each way.
  I have zero problem with transit and I actually alternated between cycling and the bus to my last job based on weather, which took a out 40 min regardless of method of transport (about 10 miles away, two buses).
  I can get to most popular destinations in my area with about 3 transfers, and the most popular ones would be one transfer (commuter train to light rail). The main limiting factor is ridership and feeder lines. I even have a rail line that goes right through my suburban city (and a bunch of others) that connects to light rail lines, but that extension keeps getting delayed. If they built the line, it would shave an hour off my transit commute and connect me to multiple destinations (two pro stadiums and downtown), but no, we get wider highways instead, and still have terrible traffic (sometimes it's slower than the 2 trains + bus that takes 2 hours).
Frankly the best solution i have seen is always a combination of things. At least in the city I live in, people can take bikes on buses and trains, many people walk, and for trips that require trunk space (e.g furniture, DIY supplies etc) there is a Car sharing service that is cheaper than owning a car, or using ride share / taxi.
I don't think waymo is a better option than a combination of what's above, I think it can perhaps compliment it but it should not be the sole last-kilometre solution.
I would like to see waymo-like tech provide better public transit for the disabled. As of now, people in my city with disabilities can book special routes which are serviced by specialized buses/ taxis, and existing lines are all wheelchair accessible as well.
Self driving cars give the opportunity for those people to have even more freedom in booking, since as of now they can't do last minute booking for the custom routes. It wouldn't really create a traffic problem and massively would increase quality of life for those who are sadly disadvantages in society
Almost all people can walk a mile. The remainder have special mobility needs.

Why are we still doing this?

Because there's a lot of money in it. 10.3% of the US workforce works in transportation and warehousing. Trucking alone is the #4 spot in that sector (1.2 million jobs in heavy trucks and trailers). Couriers and delivery also ranks highly.

The self-driving vehicles are targeting whole markets and the value of the industry is hard to underestimate. And yes, even transit is being targeted (and being implemented; see South Korea's A21 line). There's a lot of crossover with trucking and buses, not to mention that 42% of transit drivers are 55+ in age. Hiring for metro drivers is insanely hard right now.

Taking waymo's numbers at face value they are almost 20x more dangerous than a professional truck driver in the EU. This is a personal convenience thing for wealthy people, that's it. Fucking over jarvis and Mahmood so we can have fleets of automated ubers...
- It’s nonsensical to compare protected highway miles with surface city street miles.
- Uber had a net income of 9.86 billion dollars and spent 7.14 billion in operations in 2024. That's a single transportation company. Do you really think Uber or anyone else is going to ignore researching the technology that could significantly reduce their billions in operations costs?
  I'm also not so sure that Europe is 20x safer than the US. A quick search pulled up the International Transport Form's Road Safety Annual Report 2023 and their data disagrees. The US, even with its really poor showing in the general numbers, is safer than Poland and Czechia (Road fatalities per billion vehicle‑kilometres, 2021). I could see an argument for a 2x gap of Europe outdoing the US, but a 20x? Citation needed.
  
  They're not saying general road safety is 20x better. They're comparing an automated car ONLY on surface streets with lights, intersections, pedestrians, dogs, left turns, etc... to a professional truck driver mostly on highway miles.
  
  That's fair. Comparing regular drivers doing typical city trips to commercial big rigs is a bit apples-and-oranges. I wonder how CDL data would compare when the self-driving semi-trucks start putting on miles. Aurora is about to launch in that exact space.
  
  I'm honestly more scared of that. Professional CDL drivers are WAY better at driving than other people. But their trucks are way more dangerous and harder to handle. So putting driverless tech in that is going to be harder and more dangerous.

So we can have autonomous metros, buses and taxis that allow people anywhere when they need it so they don't rely on having a car?

There's already an autonomous metro.
- Now let's do intercity trains and tramways then
- Where? I haven't heard of any rail lines that don't have a human operator onboard or somewhere in the loop?
  
  i.e. Every single line in Copenhagen.
  
  Budapest line M4 is fully automated, stations have some personnel but otherwise you can get on a train and look out straight ahead through the window, there is no cab.
  Trains drive themselves, but I imagine there must be some switchboard type of thing somewhere.
  
  I was on the newly opened Thessaloniki (Greece) subway line and it was autonomous.

people in america don't want to ride with public transport because they're incredibly isolationistic and have a fear of other human beings; so they prefer to drive within "their own 4 walls", in their own chassis. It's really about psychology much more than practical feasibility.

Why sell $2 light rail fares when you can sell $40 Waymo fares? Now you’re thinking with capitalism!