Skip Navigation

news @hexbear.net zephyreks [none/use name] @hexbear.net 1 yr. ago

What's really happening in Gaza?

Propaganda is flying around like crazy in this conflict and I think it's time for our community to come together and try to separate the truth from misinformation and chaff. Similar to my last post on the al-Ahli Hospital Massacre, we're going to go with the following format:

For top-level comments, post the claim being made as well as who made the claim (please cite as close to the original source as possible) and, if possible, the date/time that claim was made.

For other comments, please try to either prove or debunk claims using multiple sources and verifiable information.

You're viewing a single thread.

41 comments

[2023/10/15] "Over 1,400 were killed (and) over 120 Israelis were abducted by Hamas terrorists" since the October 7 attack, Tal Heinrich, spokeswoman for the (Israeli) prime minister's office, told journalists
- [2023/10/21] [Hebrew] One Apache pilot reflected on the tortuous dilemma of whether to shoot at people and cars returning to Gaza. He knew that many of those vehicles may have contained Israeli captives. But he chose to open fire anyway. “I choose targets like that,” the pilot reflected, “where I tell myself that the chance that I am shooting here on hostages as well is low.” However, he admitted that his judgment “was not 100%.” “I understand that we have to shoot here and quickly,” the commander of the Apache unit, Lt. Col. E., told Mako in a separate report
  
  Translated by people online - translation may be unreliable
- [2023/11/15] Haaretz has released a list of 1175 confirmed casualties
  
  This list is continually updated. Per this list there are 1175 casualties (1087 from October 7th): 771 civilians, 59 police, 332 IDF, and 13 emergency services. Some number of these casualties are foreign, non-Israeli migrant workers.
  
  Is there a pattern to how the civilians were killed? I scrolled a bit and many of them do not have a cause of death.
  
  The numbers seem pretty solid around 750-800 Israeli civilian deaths. The question now seems to be which side fired the shots and whether they were avoidable. Some people on Hexbear have suggested it was poorly trained IDF shooting indiscriminately which caused many of the deaths, but so far that just seems to be speculation.
  
  I don't think there's anything concrete as far as numbers go, but we do have an Israeli news source giving a few interesting tidbits (emphases mine):
  
  As the pilots struggled to differentiate between terrorists and civilians, the decision was made to prioritize the immediate halt of the influx of Hamas terrorists and the potentially dangerous Gaza mobs breaching the border.
  
  What would they be prioritizing this over? Presumably, making sure the person they're targeting is a combatant before firing.
  
  The initial pace of the strikes against the thousands of infiltrators was staggering, with the pilots eventually slowing down their attacks and meticulously selecting targets.
  
  This implies a haphazard, "kill anything that moves" approach was employed at first.
  
  Hamas terrorists deliberately played a cunning game with the helicopter pilots and special forces operatives. briefings revealed that the terrorists were advised to advance cautiously into the settlements and military outposts, to walk and not run, in order to appear like they were Israeli. This deception tactic persisted for some time until the Apache pilots realized that all constraints should be disregarded.
  
  Constraints in this case would likely be silly little things like making sure your target isn't a civilian before shooting.
  
  No surprise. Israeli settlers aren't really valued by Israel for anything other than their names and numbers in eviction proceedings.
- [2023/10/08] Bezalel Smotrich [Israeli finance minister and settler leader], urged the Israeli army to “hit Hamas brutally and not take the matter of the captives into significant consideration” during a cabinet meeting late on 7 October as the Hamas attack was still underway.
- [2023/10/15] "It was only around 9:00 a.m. that some of them began to spray the terrorists with the cannons on their own, without authorization from superiors.” “The rate of fire against the thousands of terrorists was tremendous at first, and only at a certain point did the pilots begin to slow down the attacks and carefully select the target" ... After landing his Apache to reload ammunition at roughly 10:00 am, the commander of the 190 squadron instructed the other pilots “to shoot at everything they see in the fence area,” separating Israel from Gaza.
  
  Translated from an article by Yedioth Ahronoth that I cannot find because I do not speak Hebrew.
  
  I think this is the article: https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/b111niukzt
  
  Yep, looks right to me.
- [2023/10/20] [Hebrew] [Tuval Escapa, a member of the security team for Kibbutz Be’eri] told the Israeli newspaper Haaretz that as desperation began to set in, “the commanders in the field made difficult decisions – including shelling houses on their occupants in order to eliminate Hamas fighters along with the hostages.”
  
  Translated by Middle East Observer
  
  [2023/10/15] It happened when Israeli forces engaged in fierce gun battles with Palestinian fighters in Kibbutz Be’eri and fired indiscriminately at both the fighters and their Israeli prisoners. “They eliminated everyone, including the hostages,” she told Israeli radio. “There was very, very heavy crossfire” and even tank shelling.
  
  Yasmin Porat, a survivor from Kibbutz Be'eri, corroborates the claims from Tuval Escapa in an interview with Israeli media channel Haboker Hazeh. A transcript of her interview is available from Electronic Intifada.
- [2023/11/10] Israel has revised its official estimated death toll of the Oct. 7 Hamas attacks, lowering the number to about 1,200 people, down from more than 1,400, a spokesman for the country’s Foreign Ministry said on Friday night.
- [2023/10/17] Haaretz has released a list of Israeli's killed on October 7th
  
  This list separates losses into "civilians", "emergency services", "IDF", and "police."
  
  By my count, there are 93 civilians, 5 emergency services workers, 171 IDF, and 41 police on this list.
- [2023/10/20] The division was compelled to request an aerial strike against the base itself [Israeli base Erez Crossing] in order to repulse the terrorists.
- Regarding the "by Hamas" part:
  
  [2023/10/22] Mondoweiss: A growing number of reports indicate Israeli forces responsible for Israeli civilian and military deaths following October 7 attack

You've viewed 41 comments.