Israel and Hamas reach tentative U.S.-brokered deal to pause conflict, free dozens of hostages
Israel, the United States and Hamas are close to an agreement to free dozens of women and children held hostage in Gaza, in exchange for the first sustained pause in conflict in Gaza, according to people familiar with its provisions.
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Five days isn't enough, but maybe can be stretched out to a real ceasefire by further negotiation?
If Biden pulls off a ceasefire I'm voting for him. If he doesn't, I won't. Simple as.
Boo, dude.
How is Biden personally responsible for what is going on with Israel and Hamas? Israel came into existence in 1942, Biden was a child at the time, and not even elected into the Senate until 1972 a full 30 years after Israel policies were in motion.
I'm not making excuses for any support of Israel's actions, but it's a little reductive to blame this all on one dude. (Which you're kind of doing in other parts of this thread)
Let's not forget there's a real concerted effort by the republican party right now to turn this country into a Fascist one party state, and they've plainly stated that their plan is to go after people critical of the state and political enemies if elected, which could be you and me.
I wouldn't take that threat lightly.
Don't bother. They're not arguing in good faith.
How is Biden personally responsible for what is going on
Every US president since the 70s has been complicit in enabling Israel's crimes - and that includes Biden.
How convenient for your dumbest argument.
So which part of...
Every US president since the 70s has been complicit in enabling Israel’s crimes - and that includes Biden.
...didn't you get the first time around?
Because what two foreign powers decide to do is totally Biden's responsibility?
When it comes to Israel? Absolutely. That's the 51st state, our own little monster that we've fed and created.
Puerto Rico, American Samoa, Guam, US Virgin Islands, Northern Mariana Islands, and Washington DC have entered the chat.
That’s the 51st state, our own little monster that we’ve fed and created.
Jesus Christ. Imagine believing that.
Imagine not believing that ... esp since "the United States has given Israel more than $260 billion in combined military and economic aid since World War II, plus about $10 billion more in contributions for missile defense systems like the Iron Dome, a U.S. News analysis finds". source
Egypt has received some 180 billion in aid since WW2. Is it state # 52?
Egypt is a US client state - is this really the first time you've heard of this stuff?
Goodness me, I suppose the EU is made of US client states as well, and Japan, and South Korea, and Latin America, and MENA, and most of Africa, and Southeast Asia. Really, anytime anyone does anything you don't like, unless they're Russia, Iran, India, or China, you can just decry them as America's 51st state. Very convenient. I'm sure India will be added to the "American Capitalist Lapdogs" before long, though. Not enough saber-rattling for your kind.
Japan, and South Korea
LOL!
Clyde... tourism brochures aren't history books, okay?
Only if you fix the kbin tag in your post. /s
I personally have a lot more trouble believing the u.s isn't a colossal imperialistic empire but a lot of people do seem alarmingly ignorant of this fact.
Without US support Israel wouldn't last a month - Israel is a shining example of US "foreign policy." Just like Saudi Arabia.
Right, do you not remember how the last attempts to dislodge Israel went, back when Israel went without significant US support?
Are you talking about the Yom Kippu war, perhaps? That war Israel only survived due to the massive support it received from the US?
Is that the time you are talking about?
... you do realize that the Yom Kippur War had already shifted in Israel's favor by the time (limited) American support arrived, and that the Arab states were backed materially by the Soviet fucking Union, right?
LOL!
Tell me you don't know squat about the history you are feigning expertise in without telling me you don't know squat about the history you are feigning expertise in.
Israel was backed to the hilt by the US long before Yom Kippur happened, Clyde - it was only thanks to the US placing it's massive surveillance capabilities at Israel's disposal that Israel even exists today.
Do you actually know anything about this that you haven't read on an Israeli tourism brochure, Clyde?
Israel was backed to the hilt by the US long before Yom Kippur happened,
Imagine being this ignorant of Israeli history. Guess you need to posture after being called out on your ignorance of the Yom Kippur War.
So which part of...
Do you actually know anything about this that you haven’t read on an Israeli tourism brochure, Clyde?
...didn't you understand the first time around, apologist?
Israel has nukes, you know? That's a pretty solid deterrent, especially if you don't have anything to lose.
So did Apartheid-South Africa - it's not the deterrent it's made out to be.
Imagine believing Israel is somehow able to survive without a steady supply of support from the entire Western world.
If the US pulled support, pretty much every NATO country would do the same thing. They'd be alone in the world in a region surrounded by countries opposed to Zionism. Hell, just take those warships out of the Gulf and things would turn very quickly.
"every NATO country would do the same thing"
Who else is materially supporting Israel in NATO, again?
Is NATO just the fucking illuminati, at this point, as an excuse for everything you don't like?
Do you not remember what happened in the first twenty-five years of Israel's existence?
Do you not know how US-Israel relations were in that period?
... do you know anything about the history of this region?
Who else is materially supporting Israel in NATO, again?
Diplomatic support matters, but also, the UK has sent ships and planes to support Israel, the European Union's executive arm announced it was suspending all aid to the Palestinian territories, Germany offers Israel military help and promises to crack down at home on support for Hamas , like are you serious?
Also, this is not the 1950s! You're living in the past, the Israel of today is run by the soft sons of the ones who conquered Palestine. Their soldiers aren't warriors, they're concentration camp guards and dronies and desk jockies. There's a reason they've lost tanks trying to take Gaza.
Diplomatic support matters, but also, the UK has sent ships and planes to support Israel, the European Union’s executive arm announced it was suspending all aid to the Palestinian territories, Germany offers Israel military help and promises to crack down at home on support for Hamas , like are you serious?
I made the comment in response to "Imagine believing Israel is somehow able to survive without a steady supply of support from the entire Western world."
Show me the steady supply of support from NATO countries other than the US, not the immediate reaction to a civilian massacre.
Also, this is not the 1950s! You’re living in the past, the Israel of today is run by the soft sons of the ones who conquered Palestine. Their soldiers aren’t warriors, they’re concentration camp guards and dronies and desk jockies. There’s a reason they’ve lost tanks trying to take Gaza.
"Soft sons", "their soldiers aren't warriors"
Jesus Christ. And tankies wonder why people call them red fash.
2008: 'Israel, Germany develop nuclear warning system'
2020: UK and Israel sign agreement on military cooperation
I really don't care to keep looking this stuff up for you. Just look in wikipedia for [country]-israel relations, there's loads of examples of both military and non-military cooperation between Israel and various NATO countries. Without America, all that goes away.
Jesus Christ. And tankies wonder why people call them red fash.
And yet you're the one supporting genocide.
When preemies die because there's no power for their incubators, that's our fault. We both voted for that.
I'm not voting for that again. It's not too late for Biden to change course, and if he does I will vote for him.
But by voting blue-no-matter-who, you are making Biden worse. You are showing him he can do anything he wants and, as long as he is slightly better than Trump, you will support him. No matter how many thousands of children die screaming under the rubble, scared out of their minds and surrounded only by darkness and the smell of burning flesh and ash and rotting bodies. No matter how many families are torn into bloody chunks. No many how many mothers have to say goodbye to their little children forever.
You'll vote for it, because it could be worse under Trump.
I'd rather kill myself.
2008: ‘Israel, Germany develop nuclear warning system’
2020: UK and Israel sign agreement on military cooperation
I ask for proof of "a steady supply of" material support, and you give me...
A jointly-developed nuclear warning system and a cooperation agreement regarding Britain and Israel exchanging expertise and Britain already having purchased Israeli-made drones for their own use.
Okay, I guess nearly every militarily competent country on earth has "a steady supply of" material support from NATO. We really are the illuminati.
I’d rather kill myself.
You keep going back to this. As one suicidal person to another, it's not a fucking excuse to fuck the world after you.
Okay, I guess nearly every country on earth has “a steady supply of” material support from NATO. We really are the illuminati.
Material exchange is material support. You can tell by the fact that they don't do that with NATOs enemies.
I want you to imagine a world where Israel is treated like Iran, except it doesn't even have support from Russia or China either.
You keep going back to this. As one suicidal person to another, it’s not a fucking excuse to fuck the world after you.
Not if I make it count. The Arab Spring comes to mind.
If Isreal gets put into a bad spot they'll start turning cities to glass, so maybe the status quo isn't too bad
IF the Samson Option is real, it categorically cannot be acquiesced to, as doing so would legitimize the use of nuclear terror as a means of foreign policy.
I think that ship sailed in 1945
Yes, once (or twice, depending on your perspective).
But it hasn't happened since because the world knows what it looks like and how difficult it would be to come back from that (partially anyway, as areas of Japan still have issues with birth defects, etc).
I've seen more stupid takes this past month than during all of COVID.
People are getting stupider faster. We're screwed.
Because trump totally would have gotten that ceasefire
don't shame people into voting for shit, fix your bad candidate problem. bad candidates scare off swing voters in the suburbs worse than progressive candidates
If you're given the option to lessen the chance of the greatest evil happening by merely pushing a button, and you think "naah I'm not gunna," then you absolutely should feel shame. If your inaction supports the greater evil coming to power, absolutely shame on you.
I, for one, accept this fact alongside the ugly truth that Biden is alienating a non-negligible amount of voters which puts into question his chance of winning the needed 1 or 2 of the 5 undecided swing states for an EC victory. I'm at a loss for what to do about the situation, seems like there isn't a clear solution.
Exactly. I don't even have any argument for people who dislike Biden, and I totally sympathize with people who want a different candidate.
But in the end of the day, either A or B will win this election, and anything other than a vote for A mathematically works out to support for B. So unless you actually want Trump to win, the only reasonable choice is to vote for Biden.
But how do we tell that to people who will decide not to vote or who will vote third party?
I don't know. I've it out rationally several times to people who then get angry and emotional about it. These purity test commenters are the same way. Their position isn't based on reason, and it often seems like showing reasoning to them won't change their mind. But fighting certainly won't help either.
I think the thing you gotta do is just remain as non-confrontational as possible and explain the game theory/the math behind why it works. And let them know it's not a condemnation of their dislike of the system, or of Biden, or of whatever. You can hate something and still vote for it, and that can still be the best choice too. Just don't fall for the bait from those commenters who think their being cute by picking fights or turning it personal. Keep it rational. Maybe the person you're talking to won't change their mind, but a 3rd person who reads the conversation later on might see how you're being rational and making points while the other guy is just being stubborn, argumentative, and irrational.
Unfortunately, support for Israel is also widespread in the US, so in either case, Biden loses votes. From a domestic and strategic political perspective, there are no right answers.
I think support for Israel among his actual constituents is overstated, and would also sharply decline in the case of the president and senate condemning and punishing Israel for their crimes, but I can't say anything with certainty these days.
Surely this can be spun as saving Israeli lives for those people? Sure, it's going to save way more Palestinians, but you'd think it can be marketed as "I brokered the deal that saved the Israeli hostages"
One hopes.
So trump is a better candidate in your eyes?
Because that is who you are effectively voting for if you don't vote Biden next year
If you don't donate to Biden you're effectively donating to Trump.
People should be absolutely shamed for voting for Trump. You have to be absolutely fucking retarded to think he's a better option after the past 8 years.
I will not vote for genocide. That's my red line. If you vote for the lesser of two genocides you're still voting for genocide.
If Biden actually manages to stop Israel from continuing its genocide he has my vote! That's all it would take and that is not a high bar.
So you vote for nothing and the worst of the two gets in anyway. The family who would've otherwise lived in the 'lesser genocide' thanks you. In what realm does that make sense?
These "red line" commenters are so blinded by their own purity tests that they can't see they're actually supporting the greater genocide. Every thread here on lemmy is full of them, and they all make the same case, but they refuse to acknowledge the actual reality, which is that not voting for the one person who has an actual chance to beat Trump, they're actually supporting him. Not as much as they would if they actually voted for him, but still significantly.
If Trump wins by a narrow margin, it will be because of these red-liners who valued their own purity over the lives of others.
By not donating to Biden you are supporting Trump.
In a way, there's an argument to be made there. If you're not doing everything you can to help defeat evil, then you are allowing that evil some amount of support.
On the other hand, your vote is black and white. By not voting for the one person who has an actual chance to beat Trump, your actions are inarguably are supporting Trump.
Your money is black and white too. By not donating to the one person that has an actual chance to beat Trump, your actions are unarguably supporting Trump. Similarly! By not volunteering your time to the one person that has an actual chance to beat Trump...
Zero. Difference.
You could argue he’s donating his time right now trying to sway people in a public forum and getting them to think I support for his candidate of the lesser of two evils.
I literally just agreed with you in my previous post. So I guess you agree now, and you've realized that the only reasonable choice is to vote for Biden.
I'm voting downticket for Democrats so they hinder Trump.
I won't vote for genocide. I'd rather kill myself.
Trump literally led a violent insurrection to stay in power.
Vote for local government and representatives. But they aren't going to be able to do much when the Nazis come marching again
My family is Palestinian. Don't use my people as an excuse to not vote biden. We are all voting for him because we understand how much worse Trump will be. Understand that if Trump wins and you didn't vote biden (the only other viable candidate) you are just as responsible for what he does as the people who voted for him
If you don't do the bare minimum to stop the worst possible outcome (ticking a small fucking box on election day) then you are complicit in the outcome.
Trump is already talking about basically ethnically cleansing the us in the context of mass deportation of immigrants and other parts of his "platform".
It is less "voting for the lesser of two genocides". It is preventing the ones you can.
And by threatening to withhold my vote I'm trying to prevent further genocide in Gaza. We've already forced Biden this far, we can force him farther if he realizes it could cost him the election.
So, no ceasefire, no votes.
By voting blue-no-matter-who, you're just making Biden worse.
If Biden doesn’t get the ceasefire, you won’t vote for him
But who would you vote for, then?
No other candidates, Democrat or Republican, that run again Biden will be able to get the ceasefire, either - come time to vote.
So….you won’t vote at all?
I'll vote downticket for Democrats and write Hillary Clinton in to the Presidential spot.
Democrats in the House and Senate would rein in Trump and it's still Her turn!!!
Not against her as a candidate, but you know writing her in will just waste a vote.
There’s also no promise that if she were in the potus seat right now that she could definitively broker a ceasefire. We don’t know how any of it would work with anyone else.
Let’s give Biden a chance.
(Btw im all for voting for another deserving candidate who runs against him on the Democratic ticket)
I'm giving Biden a chance right now. He has almost an entire fucking year to pull this off.
The pressure is already adding up, you can't say that Democrats haven't budged on this issue. It's working.
Keep up the pressure. No ceasefire, no votes.
Clinton. You'd vote for Clinton in this theoretical scenario as to who would get your vote in negotiating a ceasefire as president during this crisis.
The Hillary Clinton who has expressly opposed a ceasefire during this very crisis.
That Clinton.
Problem?
No, actually, this resolves the ongoing question I had as to whether you were just ignorant, or expressly an enemy of democracy LARPing as a Very Concerned Citizen.
No ceasefire, no votes.
If you're so worried about Biden losing then maybe you should be pressuring him to call for a ceasefire?
Ah so the solution is to let the person who will make it worse and officially start the trans genocide within the US win. You're so smart. Your intelligence eclipses everyone else's here. If you can't stop 1 genocide let's just let 2 happen while the other gets worse. Genius. Absolutely genius.
don't let people shame you into supporting evil
You should feel shame if your inaction supports the greatest evil.
I feel shame for being American and not laying down my life to oppose this demon shithole.
I mean, you do you. But dying also won't help stop Trump.
Voting on the other hand....
Good. Feel shame. Put up or shut up.
I won't be young forever. Hell I'm not sure if I'm even still young now.
Good idea. Thanks for your support. I hope you join me.
I won't, because I'm not under the impression that armed conflict that kills millions and obliterates the country economically and socially for decades (the 'best' realistic scenario) is better than the status quo. Of course, more likely than that is that 'laying down' your life to oppose the US will just result in you laying down your life and nothing else happening, because the millions of people living here are also not keen on overthrowing the government for [checks notes] being allies with bad countries.
And thus is why politics in the us are dogshit. Single issue voters are objectively idiots.
