Hamas are freedom fighters and not terrorists
Hamas are freedom fighters and not terrorists
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Where do we draw the line between the two?
Is there any line they could cross, any at all in the future, where the label changes in your mind?
The problem with this line of thinking, as well as the point the OP's meme makes, is that it's drawing a line between the two in the first place, when in fact there can be significant overlap.
A quick dictionary lookup yields this for terrorism: "the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims." Note that "especially against civilians" doesn't mean it has to be, just that civilians being involved makes it a stronger case.
Now, you may have already spotted the issue, but here it is anyway: this is an incredibly broad definition. Laws don't bind those in other states, so ANY act of violence or intimidation is unlawful.
So...freedom fighters fight using violence, against the laws of the country that claims sovereignty over them... so they're terrorists. Full stop. This doesn't mean that we should or shouldn't support them, it just means that the definition of terrorism is pretty useless.
It DOES mean the distinction between them is useless.
Which is my point.
If you chop the heads off people who are not even Israeli, or torture infants in their beds; you are not supported due to the acts against people completely outside any who oppose you.
I don’t support Hamas because they kill innocents, for no benefit to the people of Palestine, but only because they want violent death to Jews.
I don’t support Israel in their campaign because they kill innocents, for no benefit to the people of Israel, but only because they want vengeance.
Both actions are pure barbarism. Anyone able to look at pictures of tortured and mutilated bodies of innocent people and think “ these people are to be supported” is delusional, morally bankrupt, and failing the test of integrity to purpose.
If you chop the heads off people who are not even Israeli, or torture infants in their beds; you are not supported due to the acts against people completely outside any who oppose you.
Israel made that up while bombing hospitals. That being said, there were more secular, politically moderate non-fundamentalist organizations dedicated to Palestinian liberation, and Israel supported Hamas over those organizations in order to paint Palestinians as extremists and fundamentalists. Now that's coming back to bite them in the ass. Turns out if you turn a city of 2 million into an open air prison and a concentration camp, and keep bombing their schools and hospitals, keep turning off their electricity and water, keep dumping your untreated sewage into their only open body of water, they will turn to militancy and fight you back, because the only other option is to be genocided. Try to keep up.
You should read "The World's Biggest Prison" by Ilan Pappe who is Israeli. He will tell you the truth about how his own government treats Palestinians. If you aren't willing to listen to Palestinians, maybe you're willing to listen to him?
Israel is a genocidal settler-colonial apartheid state set up by the European and North American powers to colonize the middle east. Even early zionists like Theodor Herzl understood Israel in these explicitly settler-colonial terms.
I bet you believed Iraq had WMDs and Saddam threw people in a shredder too.
it's all true! Please don't look into who my father is!Of course there's a Nayirah emoji!
If you chop the heads off people who are not even Israeli
There is zero evidence that this did happen
torture infants in their beds
There is zero evidence that this did happen
only because they want violent death to Jews
That does not accurately describes Hamas' motivations. The Palestinians had their land stolen from them, and are slowly being killed, over decades. They want that to stop.
only because they want vengeance
That does not accurately describe Israel's motivations either; they don't want vengeance, they want the land and the Palestinians gone
Beyond the fact you seem to have a comic-book-level outlook of these events, you're also putting on the same level a successful military operation that resulted in a comparatively small amount of civilian deaths as collateral victims (not to mention we still don't have a clue of many of those Israeli civilians were killed by the IDF, but it's definitely in the double digits at least) and an ongoing genocide, which is pretty disgusting
Is this how they get it to stop? https://t.me/Haatdocereport/7
https://t.me/Haatdocereport/8 - beheadings happened, and have been confirmed on the corpses of dozens of bodies by their forensic pathology physicians.
Is raping and then burning young women how you get it to stop? https://t.me/Haatdocereport/18
Is raping and abusing young women how you get it to stop? https://t.me/Haatdocereport/28
Is killing foreigners who are not even Israeli how you get it to stop? They used knives and mutilated his body on purpose. https://t.me/Haatdocereport/42
Is tossing grenades into sheltering teenagers wounded and bloodied, left to die in pain how you get things to stop!?!! https://t.me/Haatdocereport/50
https://t.me/Haatdocereport/84 - beheading of women who you then burn? That how you get it to stop?
https://t.me/Haatdocereport/97 - does blood in kids beds seem like the way they get it to stop?
Does breaking into a kindergarten with the express purpose of mass killing children seem like the way they get it to stop? https://t.me/Haatdocereport/113
Just so we are keeping track, we have pathologists stating bodies are beheaded. We have children killed, in their beds, bound, burned alive, rape of young women that are then executed, and these are somehow ok?
Pause all the whataboutism for a second, and assume I despise the Israeli government’s actions in use of military force against Palestinian civilians. Assume I have no love for them, so you don’t need to go “what about Israel!?”
Does ANYTHING justify the actions seen above such that these men should get celebrated as freedom fighters?
Does ANYTHING they did make the possibility for violence and more bloodshed less likely?
Fuck no.
A military operation? It targeted towns of sleeping civilians over and over. The objective was to kill people, not achieve any sort of military outcome. The interviews of the Hamas fighters captured reaffirm this.
1200 people dead and the majority were not military members nor targets of military interest. Calling this a military operation is insanity.
Dropping JDAMs on a populace is wrong, and a war crime, and horrific.
You cannot discount the wholesale torture and murder of people to also be anything but horrific.
Don’t “what about” or point to anything to say something by comparison. There is no comparison, no justification for this. None.
If death of people is wrong one way, it’s wrong the other.
I can't open a single link you provided, they all ask me to install a shitty app in order to view the content. Can't even preview the channel itself (contrary to most telegram channels), so there isn't much to discuss here; but I'm fairly confident I can guess some of the videos you linked based on your inane descriptions though, I've watched the same; and for those I'm guessing at, at least, they definitely don't show what you say they do
The objective was to kill people, not achieve any sort of military outcome.
If you think the resistance forces' objective on October 7th was to "kill people randomly", you're a child. It was a carefully prepared military operation that specifically targeted key military bases as well as several illegal settlements to obtain hostages - historically the only way for those same forces to manage the liberation of hundreds of Palestinians being tortured (among other things) in Israeli jails. Hostages that, I might add, were by all accounts very well treated while in custody in Gaza.
And nobody's denying there were civilians deaths, by the way; collateral damage will happen in a war. And there are also Palestinians civilians that went into occupied territory and probably showed less restraint than the actual trained resistance forces; when you keep people in a giant concentration camp and the inmates suddenly escape that sort of thing will happen. If you want to point the finger at someone for these deaths, point it towards the Zionist regime and its insane racist project, they're the one responsible for all of this.
And again, and finally, we still don't know how many Israeli civilians the joint Palestinian forces actually killed, because it has become clear since then that the IDF killed a lot of them as well that day.
First of all, that comment needs CWs. Second of all, do you really expect people to believe some random Telegram channel called "Hamas Atrocities Documentation Center Report Oct 7"?
whataboutism 
Permanently Deleted
Except for the masses of international journalists, first responders, and morticians who all agree with these details being true.
Every person has a name, and many met their end to truly barbaric means.
Also worth noting are the interviews with captured Hamas fighters themselves describing torture and rape. Video of their own cameras talking about making little girls sex slaves who they abducted to Gaza.
Babies found in ovens, with the grill marks on their charred corpses. CT scans of charred remains showing the spines and rib cages of infants burned.
Dozens of children burned alive, or missing feet, or missing heads. Video from their own go pros of the Hamas militants playing with severed body parts gleefully!
To state none of it happened would put the onus of evidence on you to prove such a statement, since there is a litany of first hand accounts and photographic / video evidence that corroborates those accounts. The pathologists speaking to reporters confirm many bodies without heads. Their medical examination, done clinically, documents the state of the corpses.
When you have to use forensic detailing as the director of the forensic pathology unit describes, for baby mattresses, because all that is left is the blood on it from when they were shot; you have little ground to stand on.
I’m going to assume for my own sanity that you are a Russian disinformation troll, because otherwise you are simple vile.
Visual evidence of body parts : https://t.me/Haatdocereport/129
A kindergarten that was blown open by Hamas, working to get inside and then massacre children: https://t.me/Haatdocereport/113 They had to TRY to get in, blew holes into security doors and walls to get in, then threw grenades inside before systematically killing the children. They were not victims by accident or quick decisions made to shoot that were uninformed. They worked for a while to get in just to kill children.
https://t.me/Haatdocereport/96 - the commander shouts that she is a sex slave now.
https://t.me/Haatdocereport/97 - child’s bed covered in blood
https://t.me/Haatdocereport/84 - decapitated head of a woman with the knife used to do it.
https://t.me/Haatdocereport/70 - tortured body with mouth gagged before being burned
Forensic proof of people burned alive in shelters hiding - https://t.me/Haatdocereport/60
Abuse and then murder with knives of a foreign non-Israeli by Hamas captured by their own body cameras - https://t.me/Haatdocereport/42
Raped, abused, kidnapped - https://t.me/Haatdocereport/28
Raped and murdered - https://t.me/Haatdocereport/18
Beheaded soldiers - https://t.me/Haatdocereport/8
https://t.me/Haatdocereport/3 - dead babies shot and left to burn
Is this what freedom fighters look like?
To state none of it happened would put the onus of evidence on you to prove such a statement
Yeah, that's not how this works, the onus is on you to prove it happened.
I’m going to assume for my own sanity that you are a Russian disinformation troll
RUSSIAN TROLL Everyone who disagrees with me is a Russian troll!Lol this is the most IDF
-ass shit, do you get bumped down to professional internet liar or did you volunteer for it to avoid being mulched by your concentration camp inmates in Gaza?
imo, there isn't a line. Hamas are freedom fighters and terrorists. compared to the IDF, who are just terrorists