West Bank videos show Israeli troops killing teenager and driving over man’s body
West Bank videos show Israeli troops killing teenager and driving over man’s body
CCTV footage of incidents adds to concerns over military’s rules of engagement in Occupied Territories
CCTV footage of incidents adds to concerns over military’s rules of engagement in Occupied Territories
You're viewing a single thread.
#genocidejoe
I always see people blaming the American president but not Netinyahu or the Israeli government. It's actually weird. As if he could stop the war unilaterally or like the US aid given to Israel is the only thing allowing it to happen.
I do not support Israel on this but I do find it weird how easy it has been for people to claim it as Biden's fault alone.
I hear what you're saying, Bibi and his cabinet of whack jobs are currently the main perpetrators. However, if for arguments sake, Biden sat down with Bibi on October 8th and outlined very clear red lines for it's military aid, ensuring any action that was to be undertaken by Israel would be discriminate and proportionate, we'd be in a VERY different position right now.
Biden and the US military aid to Israel is not the only thing enabling the genocide in Gaza, but the genocide in Gaza would not have been able to happen without it.
No Democratic voter is going to concede this, even though you're right.
They will argue that poor Sleepy Joe is an innocent bystander in all this and completely powerless to stop it, even though he could very well stop Israel from getting five billion in charity annually from us that directly helps them annihilate civilians in Gaza.
No Democratic voter is going to concede this, even though you’re right.
I will. They're absolutely right.
I mean yeah he’s definitely right.
“Sleepy joe” give me a break with these toddler level insults.
Excuse me, friend, that's an insult to the intelligence of toddlers. Toddlers can think for themselves and create their own insults.
It's not inaccurate.
I don't know why, in a country of 300+ million people, neither party seems capable of finding a presidential candidate that can form a coherent sentence.
What’s not accurate is trying to paint the sides as the same.
One party has spent 5 decades trying to dismantle the democratic parts of our government, destroy education, trust in doctors and other experts. so you can say stupid things like what you just said.
This isn’t conspiracy, who do you think makes the things that ever made this country great in the first place? Scientists, engineers, doctors and where do you think they typically align party wise…shocker it’s on the left.
Now go ahead reply to me on a device that thousands upon thousands of scientist's and engineers worked together to make possible.
If conservatives were the only kind of people we would still live in caves.
No one is arguing that. Straw man.
Sure Jan.
Sick burn
Biden could do more, but that last sentence in your comment sounds far fetched to me. Or are you saying that because we've been aiding Israel all these years, that's made it possible? I think that's a gross oversimplification if so.
I don't think it is. If Biden cancelled all aid to Israel over this, I think we'd see a big shift in Israeli policy. Remember what happened when the US finally dropped their support of apartheid SA?
Relationships are unique and I don't think there are many people alive who fully understand the consequences of that move. It likely wouldn't be just a "oh well I guess we call off the war" situation in any case.
If anyone understands it, it's the South African leaders who just presented their genocide case in front of the ICJ. History will remember them.
Has history remembered Tomas Sankara, Kwame Nkrumah and other african leaders who fought for deconlonization? It hasn't because they got on the US' bad side. Heck, if you go to any subreddit and look for what people think of what South Africa is doing, you will see nothing but "We should bring appartheid back to teach them a lesson" among other really bad comments
Biden could and SHOULD do a whole lot more to pressure Israel to end it. He should have said to stop on day 1.
But any aid or supplies we do or don't send to them wouldn't make a difference. They have an entire arsenal of military options and resources and have all the control and power over Gaza.
I respectfully disagree, I think the military aid and supplies that the US sends them definitely enables the disastrous policies against the Palestinians.
Not just enables, it's the only thing that allows israel to do it.
Hezbollah and Iran could completely flatten israel if America wasn't guarding israel with an entire fleet.
Furthermore the bomber parts are American and European. What israel makes in house is mostly ground warfare stuff which is a lot less capable to slaughter civilians like this.
This is exactly correct.
And that's why the aid continues.
America is thinking of hundreds of millions of lives in the next 100 years, and in the grand scheme of things what's happening right now is sad and tragic for a footnote.
You don't create peace by supporting Nazi's.
The US is an ally of Israel because they are the only relatively stable country in the Middle East with Western values that allows the US a proxy base to gather more natural resources such as oil. Look at the new oil pipeline their building off the coast of Gaza.
If by western values you mean Genocide and Lebensraum expansion, I was hoping that we moved past the Nazi shit. We're not supposed to keep doing that part.
It's not his fault alone, but he's a very strong supporter of Israel and is a major reason the situation became as bad as it is now. The POTUS can basically veto any Israeli policy or action involving Palestine, because even if we set aside the aid Israel just can't afford to lose the veto protection at the UN.
Every single US president has been a vocal ally of Israel. Joe Biden is literally doing nothing different than any of his predecessors including Trump.
Every single US president has been a vocal ally of Israel.
And now they're committing genocide. The situation has changed.
And now they’re committing genocide more quickly than before. FTFY.
It's become undeniable that this is genocide. We should cease support.
Yes 0.004% of the population of all Palestinians are dead.
You understand genocide means wiping out a population, right?
Is it the most incompetent genocide ever?
Please explain: surely Israel has the weaponry and capability right now to destroy every structure in Gaza City in about twenty minutes, why aren't they?
If it's genocide, why are the daily death tolls trending downward? They should be going up, if it's genocide, they still have 99.996% of the way to go.
You're really going to say it's not a genocide because it's not done yet?
Disgusting.
No, I'm saying it hasn't started.
Not much has changed about the intent and none of you were screaming about the innocent Palestinians killed before things escalated.
Regardless, if y'all fuck around and elect Trump under the guide of myopic "principles", you'll see a lot more Palestinian children killed in the headlines. Somehow it will be democrats' fault, you'll scream. If nothing else you will claim they didn't "earn your vote."
A racist immoral dictator will have control of your country and the one thing you could've done was refused. But of course no one will be able to blame you without some weird justification coming out of your mouth, because you have "principles"
You can't defend Biden's support for Netanyahu's genocide, so you accuse anyone who disagrees with it of wanting Trump to win.
I thought you said you wouldn't reply to me again.
He's going so far as to bypass Congress to give them more weapons. Reagan handled the 1982 war better, fucking Reagan.
Reagan made Israel stop bombing Lebanon. He just said "but you're doing a holocaust" and they stopped.
Pro-genocide centrists really hate hearing that Biden is to the right of Ronald Reagan on the issue of genocide.
I mean, they love that he is to the right of Reagan on this. They just don't like hearing it.
It's so fucking pathetic how Biden wants Bibi to respect him and Bibi's whole electoral strategy is "fuck the democrats". It's the most cuck shit.
I wouldn't be surprised if Bibi is cranking up the overtness of the genocide because he knows it'll hurt Biden but Biden is mentally incapable of telling Bibi to stop.
Biden has given Israel "no red lines" and has backed them without question. The US has all the cards when it comes to controlling Israel and refuses to play any of them. Just threaten to cut aid and they'll stop. Threaten to not back them in the UN. Threaten to recognize the genocide. Threaten to recognize them as an apartheid state. Threaten to recognize their nukes. Threaten to recognize reality and they'll fold.
When Israel was bombing Lebanon, Reagan just gave them a blank stare and said "but it looks like a holocaust" and they stopped. Because Israel is nothing without the US and despite all Bibi's bluster they know that.
Both the Israelis and the Palestinians have a casus belli. They are mortal enemies stuck together on the same piece of ground. Hamas literally has the goal of eradicating Israel, and they are supported in that goal by Iran and Hezbollah. Hamas aren't "freedom fighters" trying to achieve a reasonable and peaceful compromise toward a two-state solution.
October 7 was conducted deliberately by Hamas to prompt an over-response by Israel. Hamas is hiding among the population and in tunnels under people's homes knowing damn well that their presence is causing the death of tens of thousands of their countrymen.
Did the civilian population ask to used as human shields? I doubt it. Hamas decided to start a war without the consent of Gaza's population.
Polls show Hamas is the most popular faction in both the West Bank and Gaza and it has only gone up after 10/7 because they showed that they are the only people willing and capable to fight the genocidal apartheid state of Israel. Hamas hides in tunnels because it's been a proven strategy to survive air raids since Vietnam. The next time an IDF spokesperson claims that a Hamas base was under some civilian structure, consider the idea that Hamas merely had an exit point there. Consider how Hamas somehow trained airborne commandos and maybe that the IDF doesn't actually know shit about anything that goes on in Gaza.
The human shields line is total bullshit. Human shields don't work if the enemy is known to not care about the human. Israel has repeatedly claimed that Hamas uses "human shields" and then shot the shields anyways. Since 10/7 they have started shooting the "human shields" even if they are Israeli. The IDF just wants to kill civilians and is just giving you the run around.
Throughout all of this you still acknowledge that Israel is "over-responding". That "over-response" is outright genocide. All you're doing is trying to blame the victim of genocide for the genocide. Let's consider you're suggestion that Hamas deliberately provoked Israel into doing a genocide. Israel is still doing the genocide. You can question all you want if what Hamas did was necessary, AFTER YOU STOP ISRAEL FROM DOING THE GENOCIDE.
Matthew Waxman, an expert on the laws of war from Columbia Law School, said in an interview (link below) that Hamas clearly is using the population of Gaza as human shields, and that is a war crime. It is also a war crime to deliberately target civilians. But it is not a war crime to kill civilians who are co-located with military forces. That is the fault of the force who co-locates with civilians.
We can debate all day long about the long, complicated history and broader context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and there is a lot of fault on both sides, but in this post-Oct 7 phase of the conflict, Hamas is mostly to blame for the civilian casualties.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/4zO63JRg6VQ7LVnKrwI8cm?si=BoIW2OPdQrCIY_uhZ6P0lA
Matthew Waxman
Who literally served in the Bush Admin for the Iraq. Maybe this guy is just blowing smoke up your ass to kill more Muslims.
But it is not a war crime to kill civilians who are co-located with military forces.
By co-located you mean, anywhere in Gaza. This is also taking what Israel is saying at face value that they always know where all the Hamas militants are and they're deliberately pin pointing them whenever they drop a dumb bomb on an civilian structure. And somehow Hamas is in literally every apartment block. 10/7 proved that the IDF doesn't know shit about what goes on in Gaza. The fact that after all this destruction, Hamas is no where near defeated. Best estimates is that it's capacity has been degraded by only 20%. Israel is lying to you. They want to purge all of the Palestinians from the strip into the Sinai.
I always see people blaming the American president but not Netinyahu or the Israeli government.
Biden doesn't have to support Netanyahu's genocide.
I know, and I agree.
You say you agree, yet anyone critical of anything about genocide joe is literally trying to get Trump elected. Nah, you're 100% behind the eradication of Palestinians, don't you fucking dare pretend otherwise. They're acceptable losses to you as long as biden stays in office and does four more years of worse than nothing
Good job, nuance doesn't exist anymore. You destroyed the concept. It's gone forever. Now, thanks to you, everything in existence is binary black or white. so much simpler now!
You literally do believe it's black and white tho xD either you vote for genocide joe or you're a nazi, with nobody allowed to criticize anything he does or question supporting him for even a second, because that also makes you a nazi
Please stop harassing me
If you were Mexican or Palestinian genocide joe would be doing a lot worse to you than harassment (or pointing out your blatant hypocrisy, which apparently counts as harassment)
Well I warned you
And yet you hurl abuse at anyone critical of Biden's support for genocide.
I don't think I'm abusing anyone, at least not if they argue in good faith. If they are screaming that everyone should vote third party, that's different and should be criticized.
telling people to vote for candidates that align with their values does not warrant abuse.
I don’t think I’m abusing anyone, at least not if they argue in good faith.
If you start from the premise that all opposition to genocide is bad faith, that certainly makes it easy.
If they are screaming that everyone should vote third party, that’s different and should be criticized.
Who is doing that in this thread?
I'm not arguing with you dude. Since I'm hurling nothing here I assumed you were obsessing over my comment history. No more replies from me.
Well for me personally, I get to tell Biden what to do because hes supposed to represent me. If I lived in Isreal I'd probably be yelling about Bibi and wouldn't say anything about Biden. I have no power, not even theoretical, over Bibi.
Criticizing Biden is fine. There's more nuance to what I'm saying than that. The phrase "genocide joe" illustrates it perfectly for me. A weird trump-style nickname that is supposed to pin the whole thing on him. He should act very differently, but that doesn't make it entirely a Biden thing.
Fwiw I try to not say that phrase myself anymore and instead if I bring it up ill say financier of genocide, because thats more direct, less charged and not nearly as debatable as the other one, So I'm not gonna argue against distaste for the nickname, but personally I'm neutral to it which could be why I end up on the 'other side' of some of these discussions. I guess I just feel like some people need to hear that, but I also recognize that not everyone is going to take it with enough nuance for it to be good.
I appreciate this response. Thank you for being a nuanced human.
Anytime and same to you.
Ignore this person. They claim they have no power over Netanyahu, but want Biden to change his stance on Israel. Why? Because it will influence Netanyahu!
They are either someone who doesn't understand their own motivations or a troll. Neither one is worth arguing with.
There's a concept called power mapping which can inform you on where you should put your attention if you want to effect change. For Americans without Israeli citizenship, they will get nowhere asking Bibi to stop, that time is wasted. If I had all the time in the world yeah I'd yell about everyone. But I don't, so to be effective I have to focus on what I can change, thats Biden.
It's the same with Ukraine stuff: Russia attacks Ukraine and somehow the US is doing a proxy war. It's just US exceptionalism, that people from the US are prone to, just turned on it's head.
shut the fuck up you gop agenda fucking troll
I think you meant to say #genocideNetanyahu. But that doesn't sound as catchy and doesn't push whatever deluded maga narrative you wish was reality. You want so badly to vilify anyone that isn't your fascist leader that you'll blame a genocide perpetrated by another country on him. Wild.
But also, fuck Biden for not condemning Netanyahu and Israel on day 1. Genocide is never ok. And sending support to someone doing it is horrendous, but it is not the same as doing it.
What demographic is downvoting this? Did you read the entire comment. It's fucking reasonable you mindless troll fucks.
THEY'RE MANIPULATING YOU TO STAY HOME AND GET TRUMP ELECTED.
We're being manipulated by Joe Biden being a loud and proud Zionist and not denouncing literal genocide? Listen to yourself.
No. By jackasses like you will get Trump elected.
I don't give a fuck if trump or Biden wins? Doesn't matter, Biden is just as bad as trump when it comes to creating new oil projects. It's too late to stop the climate apocalypse train.
You don't have to feel good about facts. But you can't change them. Not electing Biden, is electing Trump. Do I like it? Fuck no. It sucks. Does that mean I will elect Trump? No. Will you? Yes. You're right, we're not the same. You would elect Trump.
Not really, I live in Canada.
If he doesn't want to be tied to genocide, all he has to do is stop supporting genocide.
So therefore elect Trump?
No. Therefore, Biden should stop supporting genocide. Why is all criticism of Biden's support for genocide immediately interpreted as support for Trump?
It's starting to look like centrists want genocide and just don't want to have to justify supporting it.
I didn't say that or jump on that bandwagon. This is what I know: if you have the nuance to bitch about him but vote for him, you shouldn't assume others do. So when you bitch about him, you encourage potential election swinging voters to stay home. And if you won't vote for him in spite of this horrible policy with which I agree with you about, you're voting for Trump by abstaining. We don't have the privilege to intellectualize. The country isn't there right now. Spoiled by recent wins. Unable to read the room.
Right. Never disagree publicly with anything Biden does because it's supporting Trump.
And it's never the time to discuss anything. Because that also supports Trump.
Basically, it's just shut up and enjoy the genocide because centrists do.
you don't have to say it so plainly.
Say anything even remotely critical about Biden's support for Netanyahu's genocide, and every centrist Democrat who sees it launches into their standard tirade. You get called a Trumpist, a child who doesn't know how anything works, an idiot, a moron, a troll, a shill, a bot, a foreign astroturfer, and probably a few more entries from the centrist greatest hits list that I'm forgetting.
"We shouldn't be supporting genocide" is such a universally hated position among centrists. They don't want to stop, but they also don't feel like they should have to justify anything. So out come the insults and accusations.
Centrist Democrats are usually so willing to jettison support for any position. It's telling how they develop a backbone for this issue alone.
but when you say it like this, it makes me lose morale. can't we just go back to owning the libs?
Ahh yes, because as we all know, Trump hates Israel.