Women-only museum becomes a toilet to keep men out
Women-only museum becomes a toilet to keep men out
Australia's Mona asked a court to reverse its ruling that allowed men inside a women's only space.
Australia's Mona asked a court to reverse its ruling that allowed men inside a women's only space.
Archived version: https://archive.ph/oHT6U
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Was just saying how I wish there were women only gyms because I don't feel comfortable in coed gyms. Men are fucking creeps and do not respect personal space in my gym going experience. The reason there are no women only gyms in California is because men's rights groups sued them for discrimination. So basically there aren't any safe places to go to the gym for people like me.
edit: good to see the lack of reciprocity or willingness to look at this issue for what it actually is from certain instances.
Because that totally won't immediately be abused for transphobia. Like, I get the complaint, but think through the implications for five seconds
There just flat out is no solution to gender seperate spaces.
Allow only biological women/men? Transphobic, issues for some intersex people, and you now have transpeople that are clearly not the gender their birth sex suggests in the """right""" bathroom, so even for transphobes this doesn't work.
Have someone stand in front and judge if people are feminine/masculine enough? Absolutely not holy fuck
Allow people based on gender identity? Any bad actor can just pretend. Absolutely the easiest option though, and imo the best one if we have to seperate them. Thankfully also the one usually implemented.
Allow people based on the gender on their ID? Still sucks for trans people as getting that changed isn't necessarily easy, plus assuming we don't havr someone check everyone at the entrance, trans people would be more likely to have someone complain and have to justify themselves. If we make it as easy as it probably should be, bad actors can abuse it just the same.
Thinking about how to make women feel safer in for example gyms seems like a better long term solution for absolutely everyone, but also doesn't feel like it's talked about a lot.
Thinking about how to make women feel safer in for example gyms seems like a better long term solution for absolutely everyone, but also doesn’t feel like it’s talked about a lot.
That's because it ends up being the bear meme discussion in microcosm. (At least every time I've seen it come up.)
Context - cisgendered man here, FWIW.
Every time I've seen any discussion of helping women to feel safer in any context, that discussion is full of men who are offended that women even feel the need to be safer, because they tend not to believe that sexual harassment is as common for women as every woman in my life has repeatedly told me it is. So the conversation becomes about the women being "oversensitive" (or similar euphamism/synonym), not about making the discussed environment safer.
I can't fathom why I'd give a shit about not being able to go work out a particular gym because women wanted a place to feel safe, unless it was literally the only gym within 50 miles. (And I'm doubtful that's a common scenario.)
Bigots be like:
Women feel unsafe in presence of men? "Outrageous! NOtaLLmEn"
Trans women want to use the bathroom? "They will rape them because they are biologically men." OR "A male rapist will pretend to be trans to rape them".
You can't beat that logic. That's why the nazis like it. Next step is "black men".
So, the short version of this is that you feel explicit sex discrimination is not only acceptable but good, but only in cases where it makes women feel better?
Because I guarantee you most of the people who make the kinds of arguments you are here are not broadly in favor of businesses being allowed to discriminate with respect to sex in general, in large part because it would sometimes inconvenience women.
The short version is that I think safe places for people who have a reason to need them should be encouraged not discouraged. Focusing on equating that to scenarios where people are just being bigots feels fairly disingenuous to me.
I guarantee you that the folks who make the sorts of argument you and others are making here are broadly folks who live in an environment that is and has always been architected in a way that is generally safe and supportive for folks just like them and possibly not so much for folks who aren't.
Edit:
Thinking about how to make women feel safer in for example gyms seems like a better long term solution for absolutely everyone, but also doesn’t feel like it’s talked about a lot.
That’s because it ends up being the bear meme discussion in microcosm. (At least every time I’ve seen it come up.)
I would also suggest that in your rush to imply I'm a hypocrite you don't ignore the opening statement to the comment you replied to.
What I said always happens is what we are doing here. So if you have some constructive ideas on how to help women who need it to feel safer in particular spaces (like the gym for example) that works better than letting them open their own damn gym I'd love to hear them.
how to make women feel safer in for example gyms
The real problem is that gyms don't pay enough to hire enough good employees. Most people who work at a gym are there because they have free access to the gym. Gym owners are cheap, mainly because gym-goers are cheap.
Have you ever been to a bank and felt unsafe? That's much rarer because banks have spent a lot of time and money on making you feel safe. Any customers are under constant surveillance and usually on their best behavior.
The real problem is that gyms don’t pay enough to hire enough good employees. Most people who work at a gym are there because they have free access to the gym. Gym owners are cheap, mainly because gym-goers are cheap.
I can't solve that problem. But me and a few like minded people might be able to pool our resources and open a gym for women only, where they can feel safe.
Even contemplating that "pretending a gender identity" is a backdoor for bad actors is preposterous though. No such evidence from all countries that have self-identification laws. On the contrary abusers and rapists are prevalent in all walks of life without even going through the fuss of "pretending to be trans". Scores of trans people use bathrooms all the same because they are cis-passing. Majority of women feeling ok with trans women using the bathroom. Cis people with non-conforming appearance getting targeted, prominently lesbians. So just the fact that this makes the list is unacceptable and an outcome of toxic evangelical propaganda on the subject. Bathroom usage by gender identity is enabling exactly zero predators. So please stop bringing it up.
So misandry is A-OK as long as it doesn't touch trans?
Women-only spaces aren’t misandry
Thank you. The reaction to this is vile. Thousands of years of bullshit for being a woman, one art exhibit, and now the dudes are screaming about re-restricting public space to women as if they came up with a thought provoking exercise.
Nope. I’m not supporting the feminist victim narrative here.
I’m just making a simple statement about what exclusive spaces do and do not mean. It’s not hateful to men to have women-only spaces.
Plenty of misandry exists in our culture, mostly fed by that victim narrative you’re espousing. But the simple act of making a woman’s club isn’t an example of misandry.
...and yet, how do you think it would be described if I opened a business that refused to accept women as customers?
One is being exercised as a demonstration and if there were places for women, like gyms it would be out of a feeling for a need for safety. The other was used to implement and maintain a foundationally masculine and abusive structure of power.
In short, they should be allowed to discriminate against men and not the reverse because men are an acceptable target?
Um duh? Trans/NB inclusive woman only does kind of cut it. As long as cishet males watch transgender porn, sure all trans/nb/fem people belong to the protected space.
The reason there are no women only gyms in California is because men’s rights groups sued them for discrimination.
California has one of the strongest anti-discrimination laws in the country, the Unruh Civil Rights Act: "All persons within the jurisdiction of this state are free and equal, and no matter what their sex, race, color, religion, ancestry, national origin, disability, medical condition, genetic information, marital status, or sexual orientation are entitled to the full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities, privileges, or services in all business establishments of every kind whatsoever."
It turns out that yes, male is a sex and that means that no, you cannot discriminate against them as a business in California. The same men's rights group put an end to differential pricing based on sex at bars (aka ladies' night). You would likely be screaming about the sexism from the top of your lungs if a business refused to take women as customers, or charged women more for the same thing, or any of that sort of thing.
The group in question (NCFM) is better known for challenging Selective Service, and their VP and lawyer in charge of that case being murdered (the killer would then cross the country and shoot two more men [killing one and wounding the other] in a "misogynistic attack" against a federal judge [the two men were her husband and son] before killing himself). The judge in question presided over a different Selective Service related case that the killer had been a lawyer on.
Hypothetically, a gym could probably get away with women-only hours if they either also had a matching number of men-only hours or charged men a discounted rate adjusted for the fact they're paying for less gym access.
|You would likely be screaming about the sexism from the top of your lungs if a business refused to take women as customers|
When has anything women had to say mattered to structures of power, though? Kind of the whole point to any of this.
You would likely be screaming about the sexism from the top of your lungs if a business refused to take women as customers, or charged women more for the same thing, or any of that sort of thing.
There's a bar right down the street. Ah, excuse me, "private club" where this very thing is true. My reaction? shrug My wife's reaction? shrug
Your comfort isn't protected by law because it's far too subjective. Discrimination laws are based on tangible, objective truths. It sucks that you don't like going to the gym but the law leaves you in the lurch. You have to navigate those problems yourself because being a creep isn't a crime. If that sounds callous, I don't mean it to be, but if there were laws dictating social behavior and discriminatory spaces, this world would be a worse place than you can imagine.
Wow I would love it if women looked at me as I worked out /s
Men are fucking creeps
You sound like a truly horrible person
That sucks. MRAs are idiots, and should have just moved to form their own men-only spaces instead of trying to ruin the women-only spaces.
Some of them did, they were forced by their respective courts to be inclusive to all.
See that’s a problem.
and should have just moved to form their own men-only spaces
In CA? Those are illegal except in very narrow exceptions. In most other places they'd be subject to anger, protests, and might be illegal there too (state laws are all over the place on anything that's up to the states).
Like Title IX, everyone loves the idea of a law mandating that you can't discriminate right up until someone who's an "acceptable" target for discrimination makes use of it. See basically any time a boy has invoked Title IX.
My personal favorite example of that being feminist philosopher and icon Mary Daly, who's teaching career ended due to Title IX because she refused to teach male students.
MRAs are idiots
Ironically, MRAs would love to see the Equal Rights Amendment (so long as it doesn't include the Hayden Rider or similar) or a federal version of Unruh passed more than anything else. But then it would immediately be used to attack things with explicit sex discrimination like differences in pricing based on sex, differences in facilities offered based on sex, Selective Service, VAWA (actually not sure if the last re-authorization cleaned up the relevant language or not) and the ACA (the contraceptive mandate explicitly only applies to contraceptives for women, including barrier and surgical methods - this means that for example there's no requirement to cover vasectomy and if vasalgel or the like ever hits market there would be no requirement to cover that either). Likewise, if women are ever required to sign up for Selective Service it will launch dozens of lawsuits across a bunch of states because a bunch of states require men to provide their selective service number to qualify for various things.